Glad to hear it! I'm excited to see the new brew and how she plays out :)Originally Posted by Hollywood
In the interim, here is the list I played.
Quick Notes
1. Dryad Arbor was awesome.
2. Sundering Titan was awesome.
3. Contagion/Shoal from the main/board (3/1, 1/3) were awesome.
4. Dread Return was the trump.
5. RUG sucks against this deck.
This was an exercise geared specifically towards exploiting the strengths of Dread Return, hence the Arbors. I'll write up a report tomorrow.
Congratulations Hollywood,
seems to be the right time to grind a few tournaments with manaless Ichorid.I also T8'ed (5th place) a 45people-event yesterday ;), but without dryad arbors (post-delivery was too slow).
I lost only one Match against RUG with 3 Cages in SB and went 4-1-1 overall, with a draw against a Maverick-Player who managed to play turn2-Ooze in both games...weird...I faced Ooze about 5 times yesterday, but to me it seemed easier to play through Ooze with manaless than with LED-Dredge (which I usually play), because of the threat-density in your graveyard.
Edit: I even managed to perform a Flayer-Kill on camera, seemed to be really my day :)
Match-up's in short:
Round 1 - Maverick: 1-1 (T2-Ooze in both games)
Round 2 - The Rock 2-0 (Ooze G2, luckily no Leylines)
Round 3 - UW-Miracles 2-0 (extracted my NetherShadows G2...seems to be a cool threat ;) )
Round 4 - RUG-Delver 1-2 (T2-Ooze G1, 3 Cages after boarding and the best Brainstorms ever, but this happens )
Round 5 - Bant 2-1 (G3 his T2 Ooze gets contagious, match on camera)
Round 6 - UW-Miracle 2-0 (unless they start to play Cages, this seems to be my most beloved Match-Up, just don't run straight into the Terminus with all your recurring threats)
Last edited by DarkJester; 09-09-2012 at 08:01 AM.
I totally understand Arbor MD, but why did you cut Probe for Contagion? I'd think being faster and having more accurate Cabal Therapies is a lot better vs the field? Is there something you actually needed 8 removal spells against?
Could you put your deck list???
I'm looking for new manaless dredge decklist because I think the manaless version is the best one in this new meta full of RUG, Miracles and GW zenith.
But i tested the Youmelia Gay version two weeks ago in a small tournament and did 2-2.
Lost to zombardement. He discarded me each game T1 kozilek, T2 cabal terapy. I never had 8 cards in hand to DDD. Pretty sad. There is no way to win games like those.
Lost to RUG. He played me a tormods with a pretty fast hand in G2, and tormods plus cage in G3.
Beat merfolks and Nic Fit.
The problem with Youmelia gay version (9-0 in GP) was that has no answer to leyline-cage. Leyline don't worry me, but cage does, because RUG and some Miracles with trinket mage are starting to playing it.
What do you think guys about this version??? (non exactly manaless dredge)
Creatures [33]
1 Angel of Despair
2 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
3 Ichorid
3 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
Instants [5]
1 Darkblast
4 Firestorm
Sorceries [7]
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
Enchantments [4]
4 Bridge from Below
Lands [11]
1 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
Side:
4 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Purify the Grave
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Blightsteel Colossus
This decks top8'ed in a 76 people tournament at the beginning of the year.
I will post a link to the the tournament-results when the data is online. For fighting cage (i'm not worried about leyline atm) I plan to build a board similar to Hollywood's, but replace the Reverent Silences with either Noxious Revival (I think HokusSchmokus came up with the idea) or even Oxidize.
I believe there are several avenues you can take with the deck, one obviously being speed with card draw and the other being a more controlled approach using removal spells. I should probably point out that Contagion was a card that I didn't just intend to use on my opponents' creatures - I would use them on mine to make the necessary amount of tokens at key times thus allowing me to kill them with Dread Return. That actually happened during the course of this event.
Contagion's application is actually a bit more wide than previously expected. Gaining the information off Probe is always nice, and it is certainly a fine card, but I wanted to make sure I had main deck outs to decks which can get off to faster starts (Goblins, Elves) while still being able to shore up some situations with combo-oriented creatures or mana accelerators. I chose to go a more controlled route in both pre and post board, with an additional avenue of attack to stop Knight of the Reliquary and Scavenging Ooze. Being able to draw into these cards is incredibly important, and they're rarely dead.
While I don't want to sound pretentious at all in regards to the skill intensity in regards to a blind Cabal Therapy, if you had seen my on-camera feature matches, you would see I don't miss often with Therapy. In one match I nailed double Force twice. Because I know how to play the card to its maximum value, I would much rather have those slots dedicated to other problematic cards and with a wider application as it pertains to the board and not the opponents' hands. The draw is cool, but I am not so sure it is worth it. Contagion and Sickening Shoal actually do something relevant to change the board state immediately in my favor, and I liked that choice more up front.
Again, Probe is still a fine choice. I just opted to go another route.
Last edited by Michael Keller; 09-09-2012 at 12:28 PM.
Congrats!!! And why so misterious? We want to see your face! :P
Like final fortune i got surprised by the 8 total removal cards!
PS:
1-What happened with Ghoultree?
2- Hated the other decks in top :)
Thanks, Cid.
Ghoultree is meh. I like it, but I don't think it's worth a slot.
Thing is, Jupiter is always filled with mid-range aggro-control decks that can be just smashed with decks like Manaless. It's not just that no one is prepared for it, it's that no one respects it. LED Dredge is a glass cannon, and while I like it a lot, I kind of prefer the consistency of Manaless. Jupiter has a very predictable meta unfortunately, which is why a consistent deck like Manaless can avoid interaction with all the blue decks everywhere and just win games outright on the back of recursive attackers.
Because I knew there would be a lot of blue decks at this event, I didn't feel as though Leyline would make an appearance. Therefore, I opted to run this and it paid off. It should be noted however that I came with a prepared sideboard for Leyline - which is another reason why I wanted removal main to be able to have important design space geared towards eliminating those other threats without having to pluck here and pick there important pieces of the deck itself. Contagion and Shoal are awesome. Against a deck running heavy enchantment or artifact-based hate, I can just sub out the removal and go from there.
http://forum.magickeller.de/viewtopic.php?t=681
As promised, here are the tournament results including my Decklist.
Congrats very near to my list!! Number of players?
As I explained above there were 45 Players showing up at the tournament.
Thx for the report! And congrats again!
Some question for u...
Running set of removal spells that require the remotion of black cards didnt you feel the lack that black cards such us faerie macabre MD?
How do you deal with faster combo decks without chancellor in side?
Honestly, I didn't expect a whole lot of Reanimator or any other deck predicated on graveyards there. Jupiter has a tendency to have a large pool of players that play a lot of aggro control, so I really wanted those players to knock out the more problematic match-ups early on and allowing me to get them in rounds three to five. It actually wound up working the opposite here, which was still good because I started off hot.
Faerie Macabre, while incredibly useful, has a different utility than the removal spells. That was strictly a meta call that paid off, although I did get a bit lucky against my Reanimator opponent whiffing multiple times. In that instance, you could substitute a few of the removal spells in the board for the Macabre, but I love the removal spells in the main. I think their application is wider than most give them credit for.
If by faster combo decks you mean Storm, I would then have to race them as fast as I can with Street Wraiths and such. Storm is an awful match-up, but it's not an archetype you run into often - at least not here. If you did, you could try Soul Spike and kill them when they Ad Nauseam. I've actually used that before to success, killing Bryant Cook in a NELC match at Jupiter in the process. Mindbreak Trap is also a nice addition.How do you deal with faster combo decks without chancellor in side?
Chancellor really doesn't do a whole lot against Storm when they drop a land and Petal/Mox/LED and pay for it. This is just a hard match-up you have to suck up and try to race them as fast as you can.
Thank you very much for your report Hollywood, an enjoyable read.
As a new player to the dredge archetype, I was hoping you could explain your choice of Griselbrand over Cephalid Sage or Sphinx of Lost Truth as a dread return target. I feel understand the choice of sundering titan, but I would love to hear some thoughts on the more comboish builds that populate this thread that seem to want to win by turning their deck upside down in a single turn.
Griselbrand is a black creature which has the ability to feed itself to Ichorid. It allows you to turn your deck upside down and win immediately with either Flayer or FKZ. Aside from that, it can draw you cards if you so choose, and it gains you life in instances where lethal damage presents itself. This occurred in game one of my round five match on camera. I was able to stave off a dual 'Goyf assault for a turn by bringing back Griselbrand and forcing my opponent to pass on attacking. This enabled me to bring back creatures next turn and smash in for a lot of damage.
Manaless Dredge is a combo deck at its very core, hence the Shadows and Dread Returns. Sphinx and Sage are all right, but for what you're getting out of Griselbrand, it really is the best option. I should have also mentioned the reason I ran five targets was to give myself more power against a quick Show and Tell - hence the choice of Griselbrand over the other two choices.
@Hollywood
I don't feel very confident in 15 Dredgers only. Does it seem consistent? It's just like playing 15 Lands in a deck and we can't afford to really mulligan right?
You really can't afford to mulligan with this deck. However, the chances you'll open with at least one dredger are something like 88.25% in your opening seven if we're talking fifteen (15) dredgers, which is very likely. That number increases to 91.58% on the first draw. That's really what you have to accept when you play with Manaless. You could run sixteen (16), which brings the open hand calculation to 90.08%, but it's rather negligible when you could spend that slot running cards to facilitate faster kills, such as a fourth Phantasmagorian, fourth Dread Return, etc. It really doesn't affect the consistency to the point where it is entirely noticeable outright.
Fifteen is the minimum, however. Sixteen is more common, although once you max out on Trolls, Imps, Thugs, and Shells, well, there really isn't too much beyond that that will help you as far as interaction goes in your deck. (Such as running Life from the Loam, for instance; it has nothing to do with anything else in the deck besides dredging. The other slots can be exiled to Ichorid, which is actually key.)
It is very consistent. In fact, Manaless Dredge is more consistent than its counterpart with LED, although obviously slower. However, the speed that is lost is gained in the consistency the deck provides, and turn two wins are still very possible in conjunction with Street Wraith and multiple Bridges.
Last edited by Michael Keller; 09-11-2012 at 05:02 PM.
Additionally, here is my current sideboard for reference:
[4x] Reverent Silence
[4x] Nature's Claim
[3x] Sickening Shoal
[2x] Verdant Catacombs
[1x] Forest
[1x] Contagion
Here is the strategy I would (probably) use against the format's most prevalent match-ups:
U/w/x Stone-Blade
Thoughts: There are a lot of poisonous cards that Stone-Blade has main for us anyhow, so all we need to worry about are cards like Jitte, Extraction and Cage. We'll still keep in a few Contagions, but we want some answers to artifact hate. Additionally, some opponents will board out Wastelands (it has happened and I have seen it), so that works in your favor. But this is a match where you don't want to put your nuts on the table game two until you've seen what they have.
-4 Phantasmagorian
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound
-1 Sickening Shoal
-1 Contagion
+4 Nature's Claim
+2 Verdant Catacombs
+1 Forest
RUG Delver
Thoughts: This is about as easy a match-up as it gets, as indicated by my 3-0 (6-1) record against it at Jupiter. Just stick with the game plan and grind it out. Ooze is there, but they have no acceleration. You can race a Crypt, but if they have Cage (which is generally at a one or two-of), you'll have to tweak your deck accordingly. Bring in a few Claims and some fetches (if they are off Stifle), and make sure you bring in that critical basic Forest in the event you execute that boarding strategy.
-2 Phantasmagorian
-1 Flame-kin Zealot
+2 Sickening Shoal
+1 Contagion
Reanimator
Thoughts: Race them as fast as you can. If they have Crypt or Extraction - which they should - you can race that with a decent hand. You can bring Claims if you want, but I wouldn't. If Reanimator is prevalent in your area, then always, always, ALWAYS use Faerie Macabre. Thankfully my area has little to any, so I board in nothing and hope for the best.
+/- Nothing
R/x Goblins
Thoughts: If they run Leyline, you can play accordingly. Typically Goblins doesn't - and shouldn't - run Leyline, but sometimes you'll run into it. If you do, then hit your opponent with a tack hammer over his or her skull. Or just board the right way.
-1 Sundering Titan
+1 Contagion
Merfolk
Thoughts: You want removal over anti-hate, because Merfolk will generally keep a threat-dense hand over a hand with hate any day. You can beat a Relic or a Crypt if you have to - you won't be able to beat a bunch of Merfolk if you dilute your deck into a bunch of artifact or enchantment hate.
-2 Phantasmagorian
-1 Sundering Titan
-1 Flame-kin Zealot
+3 Sickening Shoal
+1 Contagion
Sneak/Omni-Show
Thoughts: Wasteland is a non-factor in this match, hence the lack of the basic Forest post-board. Show and Tell puts your Griselbrands and Trolls into play, which is a lot of fun. But you need to be prepared for Leyline and Cage, here. The Burning Wish versions have their merits, but it's really all the same.
-3 Contagion
-2 Phantasmagorian
-1 Sickening Shoal
-1 Dread Return
-1 Flame-kin Zealot
+3 Reverent Silence
+3 Nature's Claim
+2 Verdant Catacombs
Elves
Thoughts: Contagion is the nut-high here. Use it and abuse it, and race them to the end. Shoal is good, but not worth hitting a 1/1 or 2/2 that Contagion can do by itself and hit two creatures.
-1 Sundering Titan
+1 Contagion
Maverick
Thoughts: Contagion and Shoal are there to help in game one if they start off with a slow hand. You can beat a turn two Knight because some lists do not run Bog main. You can also beat a turn two Ooze with a solid hand. However, if an opponent starts off with some crazy shit like Thalia into Ooze, well, that's just a problem in general. But Knight game one is generally fine.
Some lists also run Enlightened Tutor, so you should prepare accordingly with either Claim or Silence. Assuming they're not on it, here's what I would do:
-2 Phantasmagorian
-1 Sundering Titan
-1 Flame-kin Zealot
+3 Sickening Shoal
+1 Contagion
Storm/High Tide Combo
Thoughts: Win as fast as possible. No, seriously. If you want, you could try and run Soul Spike or Unmask if they are prevalent in your area.
+/- Nothing.
The Rock/BUG
Thoughts: This can be an awkward match because of the discard, creatures and Deeds. However, Sundering Titan is beast here. Game two is similar, and Leyline is a possibility. Wasteland also exists here. This is what I would do:
-4 Phantasmagorian
-2 Contagion
-1 Sickening Shoal
-1 Flame-kin Zealot
+3 Reverent Silence
+2 Nature's Claim
+2 Verdant Catacombs
+1 Forest
Metalworker/MUD
Thoughts: You really don't care a whole lot about cards like Lodestone Golem, but they can be a bitch. Thankfully, our threat-dense deck has creatures that cost nothing to put into play, and our turns can actually be more explosive than their best ones as Griselbrand turns your deck upside down.
-4 Phantasmagorian
-3 Contagion
-1 Flame-kin Zealot
-1 Sundering Titan
-1 Dread Return
+4 Nature's Claim
+3 Sickening Shoal
+2 Verdant Catacombs
+1 Forest
Hopefully this helps some. I'm sure there are other people who feel they would board differently, but this is what I would probably do if I needed to board against the aforementioned decks. Most of the other decks like Nic Fit are similar to decks like the Rock, so you can plug and play and see what works best for you.
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