Engineered Plague for Goblins.Originally Posted by Maximus
Virtue's Ruin or Perish for Maverick.
Sweepers is what you need
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
Your MD looks good now.
For your manabase: don't forget you can stifle your opponent's wasteland. And if your meta is infested with wasteland, you can go to 20 lands. Life from the Loam helps a bit in Tempo MUs, but it's slow.
For Hymn: usually people play either pointed discard or hymn, not both. I guess the main two reasons are the blue count for FoW and the fact that you can't brainstorm away all the dead discard if you play too many.
For Tombstalker: Personally I love it, it comes into play much more quickly than non-TA players think. And it's our biggest threat (where Delver is the fastest). And honnestly, it's really not hard to cast 2 per games.
Your sideboard: submerge is missing, most Tempo build (TA or TT) play 2 to 4. The cardfits perfectly in a Tempo strategy: race your opponent. Here it slows down your opponent for free, without doing any card disadvantage. I would play that over Deathmark.
Now for Ryan Phraner's list: it's a more control build, with more lands and slower threats, featuring some tempo guests like Delver. For me it's not a Tempo build. It doesn't mean it's not good, it's just a different strategy. Dark Confidant and Snapcaster aren't exactly big threats (in the sense of killing fast), they're control pieces. It's ok to have some, but so many turns your deck into a slower and more controly deck. And honnestly, I would rather play a proper BUG control/aggro-control build (no Tempo cards like Delver), or stick with a Tempo version. That's just me, it may very well be due to my lack of experience with BUG control builds.
Usually the game state comes down to a situation where you want to trade with the opponent or you just want to race them outright, so the anti-synergy between Ghastly Demise and Tombstalker rarely seems to be a problem because you can clearly choose one or the other. It still comes up, but it pretty much never bothers me. I play against a disproportionate amount of Knight of the Reliquary decks, so if it was actually problematic it should have been obvious by now. I'm not citing anything vague or meaningless like play style or making hard reads either, it's just...not that bad really.
Why do you have the Sylvan Library in your sideboard, and when do you bring it in?
I don't like Submerge in the sideboard. I tried it, but sometimes in Legacy you get to these board states where the game stalls out and you're both in draw mode and of course one of you will get something eventually, and then you don't have anything and your opponent isn't bad enough to give up a shuffle effect and you'll wish you had a real removal. Submerge is best in decks without black or white because they don't have real removal. This is not our problem.
Dionykos, I'll give Submerge a go. I thought the 'tap-out' versions played more discard which included a combination of Hymns + IoK/Thoughtseize minus the Stifles. How would you tweak my MD if I dropped the Stifles? I'd like to experiment with that too. Maybe -4 Stifles, +2 Spell Pierce with a total of 6 discard? Not sure of what the combination should be like - 4 Hymns, 2 Thoughtseize maybe?
I would have brought the Library in against Control and possibly Combo for better card selection / filtering. Although your question has prompted me ask myself why I wouldn't want the ability to dig for what I need against every other match-up anyway. I think I'll include the Library in the Maindeck - maybe cut a Daze for it.
Imho if you drop Stifle, you need to go to 20 lands. Then you can put your library MD; I like the card, but it's a bit slow so I always found it awkward in Tempo builds (of course it's very good against control decks). That only gives room for 2 cards, so you can try 4 Hymn and 2 Thoughtseize as you suggested. I have seen builds with 4 Hymn and 2 Thoughtseize/Iok indeed, but in a fast meta I like Thoughtseize/IoK more. And it's also "faster" in a Tempo deck. Of course if you play against a lot of control decks, I suppose Hymn is ok. An alternative is to play more board control with additional Abrupt decays (that's what I'm testing now, I'm still unsure about the number I want to play MD, but I doubt it will be less than 3). Of course in this case you need to have Spell Pierce in sideboard.
As for Daze, I don't think cutting them is a good idea, the card is really amazing when we put pressure, so perfect in Tempo builds.
Not to nitpick but I have always believed that generating card advantage or stronger card quality is the way to beat those types of decks. It does happen that Plague/Sweepers will do that. I don't necessarily think Plague is necessary against Goblins as you should have access to discard, Stifle, and x/5 creatures, but that is one opinion. Having access to a card like Darkblast can be fine.
Submerge is fine but can be played around. I have not played it in Team America for a while, and I don't think it's what you want to be doing. If you're playing Delver, sure, but if you play the classic version with 4 Tarmogoyf/3-4 Tombstalker I can see not playing it.
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
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Have you thought about playing with 3-4x Deathrite Shaman? This deck has so many instants/ sorceries that can be removed to deal 2 dmg every time or 2 life it will be needed.
Another question:
What is the best creature combination for this deck?
I think the best creatures are but how many?
Tombstalker
Tarmogoyf
Nimble Mongoose
Delver of Secrets
and now i thought about adding Deathrite Shaman. But don't know if its good enough. Your thoughts are welcome :)
Unsure if anyone has asked or if this is the right place. Has anyone cut green ran and creature base of delver, stalker, and clique with red burn backup ? Similar to rug's ?
Yep, check out the Team Grixis thread in the new and in development forum
Sure, I'm answering the questions about his build where the creatures are 4 Delver, 4 Goyf, 3 Tombstalker. So we agree, Submerge is good here.
Tbh, I'm not sure it's a good idea to go back to a build with Goyf/Tombstalker only. Delver is so good for Aggro/Tempo, and the triplet Delver/Goyf/Stalker really gives options : a fast guy, a solid guy on the ground, a big 5/5 in the air. Just my opinion, I don't have much experience with builds that don't play Delver.
I top 4'd yesterday's Jupiter Games event with this deck, expect a report tomorrow.
Have you tried this version ? If yes, what do you think about it ?
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=3565
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=3564&d=221519
A win and a Top8 in a row, in two big french Legacy event ... must be good, just saying.
I finished 4th (4-1, though I conceded against 12Post-Eldrazi when we were at a 1-1-1 draw) at a minor local event yesterday, winning a Flooded Strand. My list read as follows:
Mainboard:
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Predict
3 Daze
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
1 Darkblast
1 Dismember
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Sylvan Library
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Perish
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Bitterblossom
Match 1: Kobold Storm
Really not much to say here - he kinda brought a butter knife to a nuclear war. I remember countering two Glimpse of Nature over the course of two games, and Decaying a Signal Pest once time as he went full-on aggro with it accompanied by Ornithopter and Memnite. A Tombstalker beat him down after that both games. I don't even board a card.
Match 2: 12Post Turbo Eldrazi
It's the first time I've ever played this matchup, and I feel somewhat ill-prepared. At least I know that he'll be vulnerable to my Wastelands, though I did not know much about the deck until I actually started seeing my opponent slinging spells. Game goes for more than 30 minutes; I aggressivley draw cards from my early Sylvan Library to build up pressure. Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf eat away at his life totals steadily, but he tutors up lifegain via Glimmerpost. He manages to resolve the green Titan, which he also attacks with once (netting him 4 more lands); I deal with it by blocking with Tombstalker and shrinking the titan by Dismembering the crap out of it. When his life totals drop, he tutors up Glacial Chasm to nullify my offense. He hard-casts Emrakul later, attacks once, I sac 6 Lands (Wastelands were Needled, so I has some sticking around). I'm at 2 life and chump with Delver, he tutors for the draw-4-Eldrazi, and I concede (too late, some might argue - but I alwas felt it was rather close. If I just have had a timely Stifle...).
SB: Can't remember for sure - I hope it comes back :)
Game 2, the tempo plan works out and he's beaten down by two Tarmogoyfs while I use Wasteland and free counters to cripple his development.
Game 3 goes to turns. I barely remember what exactly transpired, but when we started the game, we had 7 minutes left on the clock. I concede for my opponent (who happens to be one of my favourite MtG-playing buddies - greetings, Philipp, if you happen to read this! ;)) as he thinks he'll have a good shot at winning the upcoming matches, unless he's paired against SnT (of which there were a few, as we were going to experience first hand). I wish him good luck for the tournament, and we're off to round three.
Match 3: Reanimator
Game 1 was kind of a weird beast once more; after some countering and all that, we arrived at a board state where a Tombstalker on my side faced a Sphing of the Steel Wind (powered by Animate Dead) on his. He attacked a few times, buffing up his life totals, until I finally managed to dig for Darkblast (I had a Sylvan Library out), which I used to feed the SPhinx into the maws of my Demon when he once more attacked. Unfortuntely, he began topdecking Reanimation spells after Tombstalker flew in two times, and he chose to Reanimate a Blazing Archon that he had binned a while earlier. I conceded a bit later, when he also had a Jin Gintaxias and Iona on board.
SB: +4 Leyline of the Void -??? (see above :))
Game 2, my opening seven greeted me with a Leyline, and the rest didn't look to bad either. After we agreed to keep and play, and I announced a pre-game effect, my opponent did not seem to happy about how this game started out - apparently, he did not board in any bounce. It was over rather quickly after that.
Game 3, I saw my opponent boarding in a few addtional cards (probably Echoing Truth, but I can't tell for sure). I drew a bad initial seven (only one Wasteland), which made a mulligan a no-brainer. The next six were the nuts, with a Leyline, Force + Pitch, Tarmogoyf and some land. Same story as before; my opponent was supposedly looking for bouncy action while ripping through his deck, while my monsters started devouring him alive.
Match 4: GW Maverick
I don't even remember if that went 2-1 or 2-0, so I ight be missing a whole game here... Sorry about my memory lapse (I'm really getting older, it seems :p), so if Hannes reads this - I think he's a Sourcer, too - he might add a few details about what exactly transpired.
Game 1, I win due to a Tombstalker he cannot handle while he durdles around a bit with a Knight of the Reliquary and friends. I kill him the turn before he would have killed me - flying still rules, right?
SB: +2 Thoughtseize, +3 Perish, -4 Force of Will, -1 Predict
Game 2, I open up with Perish in my starting seven, and draw a second one on my first draw step. I only have two lands in hand, and don't draw a third one until I'm at 12 life, and he has Scryb Ranger, KotR, Ooze and Dryad Arbor on Board. The nuke goes off, he bounces Arbor in response. He later said he wouldn't have expected Perish in my deck since I was also running Tarmogoyf. I Perish two more times that game, while he misses the opportunity to Waste me out of the game with KotR (I would have had Stifle protection up, but only once, of course). A huge, scary Demon mops up afterwards.
Match 5: Omiscience
My memory is a tad spotty here again, and I don't the course of the games very well, other than I had (and used) first turn discard both games. I also would have had the opportunity to cast a (my) first turn Delver the second game, but chose not to, and rather have a peek at his hand. We also fought a fierce counter-war over a Brainstorm my opponent played on his second or third turn, which left both of our hands pretty much depleted. He actually resolved a Show and Tell, dropping Omiscience a turn later (I dropped a glorious Tropical Island that I had used to pay for Daze, targeting his Brainstorm earlier), but without any gas to to something with it. I have lethal damage on board by that point.
SB: +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Clique, -1 Darkblast, -1 Dismember, -???
In closing, I have to say I was very happy with the deck's performance. I wonder how the Predicts would have worked out against for what I had originally been running them (dealing with Miracles and Sensei's Top decks), but I wasn't lucky enough to face one. I really liked Leyline, if you can find it in your first two hands (I'll let the statistics majors calculate the probability for that, but it's certainly > 60%) it's really nice in the tempo shell - once your opponent has finally handled the Leyline, you're probably far enough ahead to win - and if he doesn't handle it at all, you'll probably win anyway. I think I'll be adding a third Abrupt Decay, its versatility on top of the fact that it's uncounterable are really, really good, obviously. I never had problems getting the mana sources it requires online either.
This deck seems much better positioned for the current metagame than RUG does. RUG is struggling against many of the DTB's... not so much as having unfavorable matchups, but nothing is really favorable.
The access to discard here improves the Miracles matchups slightly, and is a big improvement against SNT (especially with its double angle attack with countermagic). Abrupt Decay deals with Counterbalance out of Miracles, which is a huge hurdle for RUG. It also deals with Umezawa's Jitte and other nasties out of Maverick/Stoneblade/etc. Tombstalker dodges Counterbalance too, and it also flies over Mavericks guys where Mongoose normally gets stuck.
Overall, I'm definitely thinking this is the better choice between the two.
Congrats on the finish.
Why have so few lists run Mongoose over Tombstalker? Stalker is much worse against StP effects and is much more of a lategame card, which isn't always advantageous when you are playing tempo. Having Decay/Demise to clear the way for your Mongeese seems pretty awesome.
I just wanted to play black "RUG" so I used Mongoose. It was incredible in a few circumstances, just ignoring removal and attacking through anyway.
Stalker is much better against "Engineered Explosives effects" though, for instance. Both lose big time to Terminus (though Stalker requires a bigger initial investment). Stalker usually comes down turn 3 to 4, depending on how much you got to counter/play for free - that's early enough for a flying four-turn-clock in my book. Also, if playing Sylvan Library (which you should, imo), you can invest a potential +5 life from a StP'd Tombstalker in an extra card.
Both are somewhat impacted by grave hate, though Goose is probably more vulnerable because you only need the one shot for Stalker. I wouldn't say that Goose "looses big time" to Terminus as you can simply draw and play it again after shuffling. Miracles doesn't really have a clock so you often have time to draw them again. Tombstalker is a much faster clock, but the shroud on Goose is relevant in many matchups. They are both mediocre against combo, but at least Goose can come down and leave mana free whereas you may just not get a chance to drop Stalker. However this deck may play differently enough from RUG that Stalker is simply the better threat for the deck. I am just theory crafting.
How important is it to run a Bayou?
Could you get away with
8 fetches
3 seas
3 tropicals
1 island
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