How would one win turn 3 with a deathrite and jarad's order? Jarad's order costs 4 to play.Originally Posted by Petree
He's not saying 'win', he's just saying he can assemble a fat dude/problematic dude by turn three in his graveyard with Jarad's Orders. Deathrite/Mox provide an extra mana, allowing Orders to hit turn 3, then turn 4 you set up the fatty with a sacrificed Retainers.
That is just waaaaay too slow for me to get behind, that's for sure. It would be better to hybridize the deck into junk/reanimator (using Entomb + Reanimate/Exhume, and Entomb can do tricks with Life from the Loam) or go for a more reliable combo like NO-Pro or Hex-Depths. Jarad's Orders does have a certain appeal to it...but it's just too easy to disrupt. And against a deck like Jund or RUG with a ton of removal before you can activate Retainers? Bah, just wasted time.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Interesting idea but I would suggest Sigarda vs the deck that's playing Liliana and removal.
I'm going to go with the other idea, Strangleroot Geist. Something that can reliably deal with all but 2 of their creatures and can randomly kill Liliana is more interesting to me than a NO plan. I'll let you know how it goes.
Last edited by damionblackgear; 02-06-2013 at 10:59 AM. Reason: That =/= Than
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
Good luck not flipping Progenitus with Bob :P. Cursed Scroll has a lot more applications than just a psuedo Lavamancer or PFire, but those are more relevant to my own meta - as well as not taking up a lot of sideboard space while being in GWB. I think decks around have a lot of answers to Prog, especially Jund with plenty of discard to take out NO or Liliana to take out Prog on an empty board.
I'll certainly be interested if a NO/Prog package can apply here though! Very powerful effect indeed, one that I've lost to before.
I did some games with the Scroll and it largely applies in the mid game, where we have a depleted hand with Liliana or just from being in top deck mode. It did it's job to take down small guys until Jund top decked the inevitable Abrupt Decay, but created a good amount of advantage. I'll continue to play it for now since I love the card, but it suffers from a lack of overall applicability to a diverse meta.
EE is great against an Elf swarm, but it really does nothing against a resolved Natural Order. Oblivion Ring is MUCH better against Show and Tell for sure just because Omniscience is a card, but that's not really what the Bridges are for. It's in there for Progenitus, which O.Rings can't hit. It's definitely not very good in a Goyf deck, but should be fine in Souls decks.
Has anyone looked at hide/seek? Specifically the seek side, seems like a possible answer to some of those combo issues or am I crazy?
Haha it was just a thought.... Jarad order thing. I guess I was saying it's an alternative win combo...
Hmmm Junk reanimator..... seems dope but we'll lose soo many other utility cards :'(
Against Elves I'm running EE but I'm almost afraid it's too slow, imma test it out. But golgari charms are super beast, if it was a bunch of tokens attacking me though, i'd whip out a marrow shards haha....
i would be very intrested in how your strangleroot geist list would look like, specially because using geist in a junk list presents us with a few problems
i would really love to see your list, and would love to hear your thoughts about strangleroot geist(maybe with cabal theraphy), on how he performs and what issues you would have with your manabase
Why not just run Pernicious Deed?Against Elves I'm running EE but I'm almost afraid it's too slow, imma test it out. But golgari charms are super beast, if it was a bunch of tokens attacking me though, i'd whip out a marrow shards haha....
This is the list I've started with.
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
1 Tarmogoyf
2 Strangleroot Geist
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Sideboard
1 Duress
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Choke
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Pernicious Deed
I haven't had a chance to test it but I figure that there's no reason not to give it a go. Of Note:
Geist - I wanted another 2cc threat that could apply pressure. Goyf is vanilla, so there's not much threat there outside of size (an angle I don't prefer to use in this format). Even though Geist is 2/1 and that doesn't seem threatening, having to kill something twice should be annoying enough to Jund. The Haste also has a surprise factor on planeswalkers. Geist isn't big enough to kill Jace outright but, he typically bounces when he comes into play against me so 2 is typically enough. That's also enough to force Liliana to death after she's killed something (an ability can't be used effectively against non-undead Geist). I'm aware of Shaman but with 7 pieces of instant speed removal (12 overall), there's a good chance it's either dead or dying in response to the sacrifice effect.
2 Wasteland - I cut one simply because it's not doing as much as it used to. I like the card but 2 served me well before and I think it'll be fine now. Granted before had Armageddon + Crucible of world but I don't think that'll be an issue. This slot was technically cut (previous list had 24 lands) but I'd rather thing of it as an "It became Stronghold" situation. The way I look at it, I just adjusted what a colorless source did. The manabase will probably need some minor adjustments but I haven't gotten there yet... or really ever.
Sigarda - Still in the list and has been easily placed on the field. I've convinced some others to give her a go (If you caught Koby's stream the past couple of days you've seen it's influence. actually got the idea for this adjustment from his stream an here). She can't be beaten by Rug (seriously, swing delver? No. Goyf? I'll kill it). It's also won me a game vs SnT by me dropping it and them realizing that an Emrakul, attack wasn't as impressive as it used to be. I haven't seen a Tombstalker but, I've got 9 answers for that as well (and a stronghold or Maze in case I don't have one).
No Ooze - I was talking a little to Matt in Denver about how I was hating Ooze and I've mentioned it on here a little as well. Before Geist, I had two open slots. I entered a daily and decided to use Ooze (1) as filler... HATED IT EVERY TIME. I figured anything would've been better than it. I wanted it vs Deathrite's on turn 2 to stop their ramp, in which case, it would just eat whatever removal they had. I wanted it when there was a creature lock and I didn't have a way to stop a Shaman from burning me (that was a practice game where I had drawn dead after 7 turns with a library!). Overall, all of the situations where I wanted it, I either couldn't have used it or I only wanted it because probability struck. I never wanted it because of what it is. I wanted it because of what it use to be. I think Deathrite has left this card unneeded. So, I opened up space.
Hymn > Sculler - I wanted two cards and even though I no longer get to pick, I trust my odds on getting enough stuff that I can do the rest. Paired with six 1cc spells, Hymn becomes a little better. Also, I'm tired of my bears dying to Pryoclasm. Losing Teeg means they can go off, same for Thalia. Losing Sculler means they have their cards back.
On the edge, cards:
Pridemage - Still in the list. Still pulling out random encounter solutions - mainly Sneak Attack, Omniscience, and Batterskull.
Maelstrom Pulse - I know this sounds weird but I'm thinking of returning to Good ol' Deed. I don't really run into too many situations where it's on or the other but there are some (Mom situations are more of an issue without the ability to just remove a Jitte Counter, equipment as well). It also gets rid of the ability to hide your echo's from it. Granted, it's something that can be Decay'd but it can't be Shaman'd for 2 life. Additionally, I am running things that can recover post deed and still attack (Geist) as well as a fatty (Sigarda) who's pretty difficult to deed (BLOWING MY OWN HORN - I've deeded for 9 before... FU IONA). I did keep pulse as an answer to hit Jace but maybe it's time to not worry about that gift horse and deal with the elephant in the room. Even against Miracles, it's typically the angels that are the issue. What are other people's thoughts?
I'm still not sold on Therapy but Geist would be a good creature to use it with. Granted, you're getting rid of ~45% of the reason you are using it (my opinion on the first life's value). It's not like Souls where you're trading exactly 25% of the card to be able to flashback. With Geist it's second life may be stronger but it's typically going to be the resilience to the format that you're really wanting.
I'm not predicting too many mana issues. The deck is running 3 mana dorks and I'm usually on the ball about lands due to Knight. The list I linked (old scg list) ran WW and GG spells along with Kor Haven as a Maze alternative - it produced mana and I didn't know about the vigilance trick... that came later. The last list was running Eternal Witness. Both of those lists manabases were very similar and, turned out fine. It just becomes paying more attention to what you'll need on the next 1-2 turns vs what you have now. As a sidenote, if you're playing with Knight, you need to monitor your available/used lands like a hawk anyway (probably goes without saying but it doesn't hurt to be reminded).
What other things were you wondering about? I haven't had a chance to test it yet but I can pay more attention to them if I know what questions there are.
Claymore - Gold-fished Elves is a relatively consistent 2-3 deck. With enough disruption, you're able to place the Deed. Updated Elves lists don't run Grip (Decay replaced) so it's not a bad idea. It's just not ideal. Deed doesn't have an effect until 3-4. Plague is 2-3 for an effect, EE is 2-3 depending on if you want to show it to them. Charm/Persecution are also 2-3. Basically, they're disruption at the needed point that can cause either major or permanent disruption. Deed will provide a complete reset to their production but, it's just slower. You'll have to plan ahead.
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
With the rise of Jund and Team America, I think Wasteland is more and more important. Personally, I wouldn't run less than 4 walking into a developed meta, but that's just me.
I've own'd 4 Wastelands but never used 4. I feel it's a card that helps you "not lose" more than it helps you win. Especially against decks that want to stunt your mana production.
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me the logic behind playing 4 Wasteland is that you want to try and mana hose your opponent. I only play 2 Wasteland because my goal with them is removal of any specialty lands that cause me problems, it's also why I've stuck with Vindicate over Maelstrom Pulse and it's also part of why I am still playing Eternal Witness. Also, as Damion said, I feel like it hurts my mana base pulling a Wasteland over a different mana producing land.
Damion I really like this list and I think you're on to something with Geist. I play them in a standard version of Junk and it rarely disappoints, not sure why I didn't think to bring them to legacy. Personally I'd run Witness over Pridemage and find a slot for Pridemage in the side, but that's just my love for Witness. Great looking list though, would love to hear how it's playing for you.
@ damion
i really like your reasoning about geist, and it is quite similar to mine
ther are a lot of liliana decks out there right now, with a geist on the field, the -2 ability of liliana seems to suck, which is really nice
next point that should be good with geist is haste,.... we are for most part a reactive deck (discard aside), with geist we could be more proactive and force wrong decisions on the opponent, for example removing geist, and leaving them with no removal for our knight,.......... but the more important part i think is that we can kill oppising planeswalker with it if our opponents are not careful
to cabal therapy with geist actually would be quite nice, simply because we can decide when to flashback, depending on the matchup. VS aggro or midrange it is not that usefull to flashback if not for high value (multiple cards) against control it would depend on the list, but flashbacking for possible removal leaves us with a stronger threat, for maybe a longer time
against combo he should be quite ok as well, specially with therapy, as by flashbacking we got more disruption while making our clock faster
Double green is demanding a lot from this deck, and usually shuts you out of double black
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
Which is why I'm testing NO-Pro maindeck and potential sideboard options, like Sigarda in the board, and possibly even some janky shit like Novablast Wurm for Goblins, a matchup I can't seem to ever get a handle on.
I figure that if I can consistently get the mana to play Garruk Relentless, I should be able to consistently get the mana to play Natural Order. I understand that blind-flipping Progenitus with Bob would be incredibly devastating, possibly losing to myself. I think that I will try to work in Sensei's Divining Top into my list instead of Sylvan Library for that very reason. I need to have a filter online before Bob, and Sylvan Library fights for the same 2 mana.
The other option is to drop Dark Confidant g2 and sideboard in NO-Pro, which seems kinda sexy to me.
As far as Strangleroot Geist goes...I think it's good with Cabal Therapy, but I don't think it's good in general. I don't use Therapies because I'm not using Lingering Souls. I wonder if it could be good, but I'm a little skeptical. I'm eagerly awaiting your results, damionBlackgear.
For now, I'm a little fixated on NO-Pro, because I think the right angle against problematic aggro decks isn't to sideboard into a control plan but rather sideboard into a COMBO plan. I know it's old thinking regarding the aggro/control/combo metagame clock, but I still think a 2-turn clock would be decent against problematic decks. I think it might actually be my primary win/con moving forward, with Knights and Shamans doing utility work and beating face if NO-Pro doesn't work out.
I welcome any/all thoughts, and it's sdematt that got my head spinning in that direction anyways, lol. BLAME HIM!
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
So, I've also found the Ooze to be lacking main board as #61. My creature base is:
2 GSZ
3 DRS
3 Goyf
4 Bob
4 Knight
I run 3 Liliana, 23 lands, and a generic removal/discard/Sylvan package.
Would it be better to run #4 DRS or Goyf, or put a single Teeg mainboard? Running 61 feel good enough to go back up there instead of running 60.
I actually cut some Knights to fit in GSZ. Thus:
4 goyf
4 drs
4 Bob
2 Knight
1 teeg
1 ooze
2 gsz
4 thoughtseize
2 Inquisition
4 decay
4 stp
1 vindicate
2 Library
2 Lilly
4 catacombs
2 flats
2 heath
3 bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 basics
4 wasteland
1 karakas
1 maze
It's been testing well.
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
This is the list i have been working on for about a week .I've changed a couple things so this isnt really a rough draft..at any rate lmk what you think .
4 deathrite shaman
4 dark confidant
3 goyf
1 kotr
1 qasali pridemage
1 e witness
14
2 gsz
3 cabal therapy
3 thoughtseize
3 lingering souls
3 abrupt decay
3 swords to plowshares
2 top
1 mealstrom pulse
1 sofaf
1 vindicate
22
2 liliana
2
4 marsh flats
4 verd cat.
2 bayou
2 scrub
1 savannah
3 wastland
2 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
1 bojuka bog
1 horizon canopy
22
sideboard
3 surgical
2 golgari charm
3 choke
1 duress
2 e.e.
1 teeg
2 bitter blossom
1 sylvan library
15
any questions ask. I like explaining my logic.. also i would be playing a volraths stronghold if i had one....this is what i'll be playing in edison this weekend..99% sure.
Bitterblossom...interesting. what's that for? I picked up a few in failed speculation on Modern, so putting them to use would be sweet
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