Yeah, Rest in Peace is really good. Ive been playing it in Blade forever and it does work. I think ill give the second clique a shot. Did you ever want the 3rd spell pierce? and how was swords to plowshares on the day? i'm testing out 3 stp and 1 forked bolt to hedge against lingering souls, maverick, and just as an additional burn spell.Originally Posted by mikeisgo
I never wanted a 3rd pierce in the main. For matchups where I wanted more counter magic, I had 2 pierce, 1 flusterstor, 1 FOW in the board.
I honestly didn't draw my STP's too much.. but they were pretty great when i had them. RFG'ing a deathrite is pretty nice. I don't think I'd want less than 4 though. It just solves so many issues.
I toyed around a lot with what to do about lingering souls, because in testing i felt like that card in Esper stoneblade type decks was a big problem for me. They can essentially fog you for a few turns before they turn on their batterskull or just curve you out. I toyed with Surgical Extraction (i.e. you can have the first 2 tokens but you can't use anymore because they don't exist in your deck), and eventually resolved to the Sulfur Elementals, since it outright kills ones on the board and prevents others from coming into play, plus gives you a dude. I never played Esper in a real match (just tested against it) though. So its hard to say whats best. I like the forked bolt idea, maybe something even for the sideboard if not the main.
I hope this is the right place to post about the list that I have been testing out recently. First I would like to preface my post by saying that I have really liked playing RUG Delver/Tempo over the past year or so; however, with the release of Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman and a lot of the control decks running maindeck Rest in Peace, I have decided that it was time for a bit of a change. So I put together the following list and took it to a 3rd place finish yesterday night at locals. The list is a bit of an adaptation of the Vaporblade list the Edelkamp took to a Top 8 finish a GP or two back.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull
4 Force of Will
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Disenchant
2 Jotan Grunt
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Supreme Verdict
I played against UWr Enchantment Miracles round 1 to a 2-0 finish, Goblins round 2 to a 2-0 finish, Punishing Maverick round 3 to a 0-2 finish, and Beat Sneak and Show round 4 in 2 games. I think that overall the deck ran pretty well, I do have a few concerns. I think that it probably needs an extra land or two; I have been playing various tempo style lists for awhile now. This list requires a bit more mana as you do want to be casting SFM, SCM, and Geist. You also want to be able to make these plays while holding up mana for counterspells and removal. I think that with that said, the deck probably wants to be running 19-20 land. While playing this deck, I basically felt like I was always in control. Against Maverick in round three, I kept loose openers and got punished for them. More specifically these were hands with low land counts. I think the match up shouldn't be bad as the deck has a really powerful midgame with equipment. But I think an extra land or two would help to make Wasteland oriented decks less of a problem.
Legacy
Grixis Delver
Vintage
Mono Mentor
Team Leovold
Why are you playing Daze without Wasteland...?
So there are a few reasons. Daze and Wasteland do not need to be played together. They are a strong combination, however playing one without the other is not necessarily wrong. The first being that I based the list off of what Fred Edelkamp ran to a Top 8 finish at a GP. The differences being the Lightning Bolt over Vapor Snag as it actually kills creatures and can give a little reach. The other main difference in the lists is the mana base. I tried to mimic his list as best as I could in converting it to a 3-color version. Here is a link to the list.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/fred-...mp-vaporblade/
The second reason is an inherent factor of the way I have constructed the deck. Casting Stoneforge Mystic, Snapcaster Mage, and Geist all require more mana than many other tempo styled decks. By running Wasteland you can mana screw your opponent and buy time; however, you are also setting yourself back on land. When you need to hit 3 mana to SCM or Geist, you want to hit land drops.
You have brought up a good point that Daze doesn't really fit into this shell that well. Returning you land to your hand also sets you back on board. So it is possible that the Dazes should be a combination of Spell Pierces and Spell Snares. Or maybe Pierces and flex slots of some kind depending on your meta.
Legacy
Vintage
This was the direction I was going. Daze and Wasteland don't fit the theme of casting mana intensive spells. You'd either need cheap threats (Goose/Delver) or ways to cheat them into play (Aether Vial) if you want to run Daze/Wasteland.
Its funny I was actually considering a trans-formative sideboard plan that would have turned my above URW list into a list that ran stoneforge mystic. Its interesting to here that you had some decent results with the URW deck that runs a stoneforge package. I'm not sure how I'd feel about dropping the stifle/wasteland/daze plan though. Its a pretty strong package either way. I guess what I always wondered was how much better is this URW deck compared to an Esper Stoneblade list.
I'd be interested to hear your take on if you've played with the Esper Stoneblade lists at all, and how it might compare.
I agree in part with this statement. Daze and Wasteland are awesome tempo cards but the way I have had the most success is running a configuration that straddles the early game with delvers (aggro/tempo) and the mid game with Geist, Equipment, and Snapcasters (midrange). While it is not as powerful in either role as say RUG at being a tempo deck or Stoneblade as being a midrange-to-control deck, this build can play either role well enough to beat most decks. It can change gears fairly well also. This means you can go aggro early with Delvers and then transition to control with Batterskull and removal/counterspells or just burn your opponent out with Bolts and Snapcasters. I don't think vial fits into this shell very well. The creatures span CMCs from 1-3 and it is another blank for Delver. I would rather play a more aggro-midrange style for this deck.
Well I am not going to say Stifle/Wasteland/Daze are not a solid set of cards. I think as we have kind of discussed here that while they are powerful, you want to have two mana for SFM and activations and three mana for Geist and Snapcaster. Both Daze and Wasteland play the opposing role by limiting your mana development. I have also been finding that players will assume you have Daze and/or Stifle if you open with Volcanic Island into Delver. So it is possible that the Dazes could be cut and opponents would still play around them. Also I have been noticing that good players typically can play around both Stifle and Daze a good portion of the time. Sure there are instances that an opponent is forced to play into either card, but careful play many times invalidates these cards.
As far as comparing this deck to Esper Stonblade, I am not totally sure what to say. It has been since before Lingering Souls was printed that I have actually played Esper. I can make some general statements about the two decks though. Firstis on the lower end of the spectrum. It is trying to be an aggro deck into a fast midrange deck. Stoneblade can be a fast midrange deck or it can grind a long game in a more controlling role. These two decks are trying to do two very different things although they do run a few of the same cards. I have not played this exact matchup either. So I am not sure how it would play out.
If I were to run this deck again, which I probably will, I think I would play the following configuration:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull
4 Force of Will
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
There are arguements to be made over the 4/2 split between SFM and SCM. It is possible that a 3/3 split would be better. Also it is possible that there should be a singleton Plateau in the manabase. I found myself wanting it once or twice. Maybe with a bit more practice piloting the deck that desire will change. It is possible that including a Glacial Fortress/Sulfur Falls might be useful as well to get around Choke. However I have not encountered that problem at this point.
I think the sideboard should be some combination of these cards. The exact configuration should probably depend on both the expected meta and the pilot's sideboarding plan/playstyle.
Surgical Extraction
Flusterstorm
Spell Pierce
Path to Exile
Red Elemental Blast
Pyroblast
Disenchant
Ethersworn Canonist
Jotan Grunt
Oblivion Ring
Sulfur Elemental
Detention Sphere
Counterflux
Supreme Verdict
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Legacy
Vintage
Yeah my point about stifle et all was sort of about preference.. I feel like you make the choice between that game plan and the stoneforge mystic game plan. I think thats why I was considering the sideboard plan for Stoneforge mystic. It might nto be a bad play for a matchup that is resistant to the wasteland/stifle combination. You could swap out stifle and dazes' for the stoneforge package, and beat them down in a different way. I think I'd need to actually play with that strategy and play with the stoneforge style deck to really get a handle on if its really a viable option though.
Fair enough about esper trying to do something a bit different than what the URW deck that uses geist does. I was just curious as to which really makes the better shell against most matchups. Since if you don't run SFM, that leaves spots open for other things (like stifle and or Lavamancer). It probably all comes down to what decks you want to beat I guess. Stifle/wasteland is assuming that people are all in on non-basics and fetchlands. I think a lot of people are starting to get more afraid of stifle/wasteland so they run more basic lands, which of course lessens the effect.
I think I might proxy up your SFM list though and play a few matches against some decks though to see how it works. I'm definitely intrigued.
I have been playing the Vaporblade version for awhile. It is pretty powerful. However like I said there were times when Vapor Snag was dead or just not the right card. If you are going to stay mono-white something like Path is an alternative. However red offers Lightning Bolt which plays double duty as removal and also reach. I am pretty happy with the choice. The only consideration would be that it makes the mana base a little weaker to Wasteland. You can play around it using the basics.
Legacy
Vintage
UWR Delver, 6th out of 70th at a Euro tourney: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10459&iddeck=76278.
Having played UWR Delver for a couple weeks, I think that it does great versus combo and control decks, but against the BGx Goyf decks, it's pretty iffy. Goyf is such a beating for us and unless we're holding StP, it's pretty tough to deal with. UWR Delver, as with most tempo Delver decks, are fantastic in certain metas... mine is not one of them.
The build I am running has 4 StP, 2 Snapcaster, and 2-3 Jotan Grunt out of the board. In my testing that has been more than enough to put down Goyf decks. Grunt makes Goyf irrelevant and we still have the best all around removal spell in StP. Lightning Bolt also takes out a good cross section of threats. I find that by being careful with where I use my removal and having a prepared board, this is a non-issue.
Legacy
Vintage
You know.. Jotan Grunt is a good idea. I never had that or Rest in Peace in my board, so I found that I was winning a lot of game 1's against goyf/deathrite shaman decks, but losing the next 2 games. Partly my own play errors, but if i'd had something that nerfs their graveyard, I'd have been better off.
You could also try to fit PtE somewhere in the 75 if larger creatures are an issue.
I'm doing good with uwr delver in my local tournaments. Against BGx (and against 3colour decks in general) I try to go for mana denial as much as possible. I ply the full package 4 Wastelands 4 Stifle 4 Daze in a Geist list. Goyf is not a big deal when you are beating for 5/turn thanks to Delver and Grim Lavamancer. Your clock is faster and generally is one turn shorter thanks to bolt.
Are you into Jazz? Have a look at the Lp's I have for sale on Discogs!
So, i have been posting this in wrong threads and now i think this is the right one.
Have tested it just wit ha friend wasn't bad but can't judge it really.
Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Snapcaster Mage
2Geist of Saint Traft
1 gilded drake
2stoneforge mystic or Vendilion Clique (to decide cuz it has a good interaction with Aethermage's) or Grim Lavamancer? (this means cutting umezawa too)
Spells
3AEthermage's Touch
3 enginnereed explosives
4Brainstorm
1Dream Cache
1Erratic Explosion
2Magma Jet
4Swords to Plowshares
Artifacts
3Sensei's Divining
1 Umezawa's jitte
Lands
1academy ruins
2 wasteland
2island
1karakas
4volcanic islands
4plateau
4tundra
4 flooded strand
1 underground sea
Planeswalkers
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
GOALS:
kill with creatures
control your deck with draw mechanics
be fast with low conv cmana cost drops
control the board via with swords and magma jet
alternative finisher is emrakul via aethermage (like natural order+progenitus does in a bant deck) . The reason why i prefer to do this via aethermage and not show and tell is:
GOOD things :
AeT is istant,u can play it at your end step or during the opponents turn end step. It has the surprise effect since u don't have to wait 1 turn to get rid of summoning sickness. You don't need the creature card to be in your hand and that means having something else instead of that draw card.
SaT cost 2U and you will be able to attack on turn 4. You can also drop many things in a row
BAD things:
AeT cost 4 you will able to attack on turn 5. It has white in his cost. The creature returns to your hand at the end of the turn. The creature has to be in the top4 cards of your library
SaT is a sorcery. You have to protect it for one entire opponent turn from removal.Opponents can also cast fatties.The creature has to be in your hand.It costs a lot of money , rofl.
Since aethermage needs library controlling support,brainstorm and jace are very helpfull. To note that Aethermage has also a good interaction with gilded drake.You steal it,then gilded drake returns to your hand.A nice trick in case you want to double steal a creature to your opponent. Explosion allow you to do more direct damage like magma jet does but since the deck is all about controlling the library it will allow u also to blow your opponent with 15 damage if u place emrakul on top of it.Dream cache is a fifth brainstorm and less costing Jace,but less effective of course. It will ,like brainstorm, allow you to put back on the top of your deck emrakul in case you draw it. The point is to not have him in hand but to keep it there with brainstorms , dream cache,jace and sensei's.
Things to keep in mind about how aethermage works:
If you reveal more than one creature card, you may put up to one of them onto the battlefield, and the rest of the revealed cards go on the bottom of your library. If you don't reveal any creature cards, all the revealed cards go on the bottom of your library.
If the creature leaves the battlefield before the end of your turn, it won't return to your hand at the end of your turn.
If you put a creature onto the battlefield this way during your end-of-turn step, it won't be returned to your hand until the end of your next turn.
If the triggered ability granted to the creature is countered (with Voidslime, for example), the creature will stay on the battlefield. At the end of your next turn, the ability will trigger again.
If a creature such as Clone copies the creature, it will not copy the triggered ability.
a nice read if you have time : http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...com/daily/zm40
About gilded drake:
in a metagame where emrakul and fatties are pretty common gilded drake x1 is quite useful as a control creature. PPl used to play sower of temptation so i don't see why gilded can't have a chance these days (considering that u have delver as a blocker). Plus if you want to play it from the top of your deck via aethertouch you will able to control a creature without giving the opponent a 3/3 flyer...and i'll say more, you could recast it the next turn to control something else. I just thought it would be worth a spot. Maybe not,sorry if I tried something different :)
Other considerations: i was thinking at how creatures with "come into play" effect have a good sinergy with aerthtouch.. was thinking at Knight of theWhite Orchid+ path to exile (instead of StP).
Keldon Marauders are also a nice treat via aethertouch... opponent 5 EoT u cast aethertouch and he suffers 1 damage.. your 5 turn u hit 3 (if not blocked). EoT they suffer 1 and u get back Keldon. Turn 6 u cast them for more damage..2 Turns of a nice total damage between 3-10 damage.
Question is: Does a deck like this survives without counters?
Last edited by guybrush3; 05-02-2013 at 04:32 PM.
Geist 2/2 body is too thin IMHO, especially if you do not run any "Blades." I have tried paying URW Geist-Blade and URW Geist-Stifle and my experience with the latter is that Geist in that deck gets easily killed by power-2 guys. How about the option of running Jittes?
You have Grim Lavamancer + Bolts and probably Dismember as well for Goyfs/clearing path for your Geist. Or alternatively you can Stifle the trigger of the angel and 2nd main phase cast another Geist and just kill them with Angels.
Are you into Jazz? Have a look at the Lp's I have for sale on Discogs!
If the argument of multiple removals to clear the way for GST then maybe running SCM is good, although it seems a bit counterproductive against GL. However, the added body+versatility on cards to flashback may it be a burn spell, StP, or a cantrip is in SCM's favor.
The deck has top 8 at SCG event, doesn't that count for something?
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=57059
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