[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

[mort-]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but am I in the wrong thread for lists playing Confidant over Stalker? Or did they get dismissed because this one is superior?

[Asthereal]

Stalker is a meta thing. Confidant is still a brilliant guy, but it dies to all the Abrupt Decays that are flying around right now. Stalker nicely dodges those.

[Maximus]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but am I in the wrong thread for lists playing Confidant over Stalker? Or did they get dismissed because this one is superior?

We're here to kill people. Tombstalker does that, Dark Confidant does not. The BUG Midrange thread is probably what you're looking for.

[catmint]

Mort, ignore this last remark which is either the author beeing too lazy to outline an argument or just a netdecker without thinking for himself. There is no "religious confidant does not fit BUG Delver thing" and certainly Confidant is better in an aggressive deck rather than a controllish (higher curve) deck.

Confidant in BUG Delver is a viable suggestions and there has been also success with confidant lists at the beginning when deathrite/decay came out. The reason why Tombstalker became more popular is due to the fact that he is resistant to the forms of removal which were mostly present: Lightning bolt (punishing fire) and Abrupt Decay.

The roles that both creatures play are also different. Confidant becomes the "go to 2 drop" whereas Tombstalker is mostly played as a 2of that finishes the job. So choosing for either creatures has other impacts on deck design.

You can generally say Tombstalker is better versus B/G and Red decks where it is about a threat that sicks whereas confidant is better versus combo & white decks.

As the meta is shifting or you are preparing for your local meta feel free to innovate & test. The community will appreciate all significant results that you post.

[Barbed Blightning]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but am I in the wrong thread for lists playing Confidant over Stalker? Or did they get dismissed because this one is superior?

I agree with maximus' statement, but I do love Bob very much. In the current meta TS just kills people. However, I would like to see a possible Bob list. SCG had an article with one in it; I'll post it when I find it.

Do you have a list with Bob?

[Intiok]

I agree with maximus' statement, but I do love Bob very much. In the current meta TS just kills people. However, I would like to see a possible Bob list. SCG had an article with one in it; I'll post it when I find it.

Do you have a list with Bob?

Here's the bob list I've been running for the past few weeks and I am currently 11-0-1 at my local events. My meta is extremely combo heavy with a bunch of U/W,(Either esper or RiP miracles) this might help explain some of the choices:

Creatures:

Tarmogoyf x 3
Delver of Secrets x 4
Deathrite Shaman x 4
Dark Confidant x 4
Baleful Strix x 2
Vendilion Clique x 1

Spells:

Brainstorm x 4
Ponder x 2
Stifle x 3
Force of Will x 3
Daze x 3
Thoughtseize x 2
Hymn to Tourach x 2
Abrupt Decay x 4

Lands:

Underground Sea x 3
Tropical Island x 1
Bayou x 1
Swamp x 1
Island x 1
Polluted Delta x 4
Misty Rainforest x 3
Verdant Catacombs x 1
Wasteland x 4

SB:
Sinkhole x 3
Surgical Extraction x 3
Spell Pierce x 2
Submerge x 2
Force of Will x 1
Divert x 1
Diabolic Edict x 1
Krosan Grip x 1
Life From the Loam x 1

Comments and suggestions welcome.

[Maximus]

Mort, ignore this last remark which is either the author beeing too lazy to outline an argument or just a netdecker without thinking for himself. There is no "religious confidant does not fit BUG Delver thing" and certainly Confidant is better in an aggressive deck rather than a controllish (higher curve) deck.

Confidant in BUG Delver is a viable suggestions and there has been also success with confidant lists at the beginning when deathrite/decay came out. The reason why Tombstalker became more popular is due to the fact that he is resistant to the forms of removal which were mostly present: Lightning bolt (punishing fire) and Abrupt Decay.

The roles that both creatures play are also different. Confidant becomes the "go to 2 drop" whereas Tombstalker is mostly played as a 2of that finishes the job. So choosing for either creatures has other impacts on deck design.

You can generally say Tombstalker is better versus B/G and Red decks where it is about a threat that sicks whereas confidant is better versus combo & white decks.

As the meta is shifting or you are preparing for your local meta feel free to innovate & test. The community will appreciate all significant results that you post.

I appreciate that you called out what I now see was a shallow statement. However, it was me being lazy and I stand by the original statement.

Dark Confidant, and by extension Sylvan Library, are tempo-negative plays. that doesn't necessarily make it incorrect to play them (I play a maindeck Library myself) but you have to decide what type of pressure you want to put on your opponent. For Team America, that means putting your opponent on a clock and forcing them to beat it through a varied and under-costed disruption suite. Tombstalker is not disruptive, but it's certainly a good clock. You could argue that Dark Confidant draws you into both, but the speed at which he does it makes him a questionable choice in this type of deck. Even when you see Dark Confidant lists, it's more likely that Confidant himself is absurd on his own more so than it is good synergistic strategy.

We have both already mutually agreed that each card fills a different role. The choice is not a meta decision, it's a deck function decision; do you want to do 20 damage to your opponent quickly? Or do you want to get ahead in game state in the mid-game? I would argue that Confidant is better in a deck with a higher curve because the gains from drawing additional cards adds up the longer the game goes on. For Tombstalker, dodging most of the format's popular removal is a coincidence as much as dodging Counterbalance triggers is. Tombstalker is there to kill your opponent.

[Fl0do]

Hi guys,

played the following BUG Delver list to a 4 - 1 - 1 finish in GP Trial, 3rd after swiss, 34 players, lost in the quarterfinals.

I expected combo to be the top decks (S&T and Storm variants), that's why I chose BUG Delver as the deck to go.

//Lands
4 Polluted Delte
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

//Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

//Other
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
1 Umezawa's Jitte

//Sideboard
2 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Life from the Loam
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Flusterstorm
3 Baleful Strix
3 Engineered Plague

I'm quite satisfied with the Maindeck, sideboard needs some adjustment. I always wanted a second Liliana, Life from the Loam was not needed and 3 Plagues are one Plague too much (though they are nice). A third Surgical is also good I think, as long there is not too much Dredge in the metagame.

R1 vs. Elfs - 2 : 0 - My opponent was quite unexperienced with the format and his deck.
R2 vs. BG Nic Fit - 1 : 0 - Hard fight, Deathrite Shaman and Lili G2 got there.
R3 vs. Miracles - 2 : 0 - Easy, disruption got him both games to the point, where every creature I play is my win.
R4 vs. Esper Blade - 0 : 2 - Vs. teammate, he slaughtered me. Matchup doesn't feel good, any ideas to improve that one?
R5 vs. Elfs - 1 : 1 ID - Vs. another teammate we draw, so both have the chance to make top 8. The games we played I always felt behind, only a Engineered Plague is really gamebreaker, but vs. a fast start it's difficult to compete with.
R6 vs. TES - 2 : 1 - Lost game 1, Engineered Plague forced him to go the Tendrils route in Game 2 and 3, but I have the disruption which is needed to win.

Playoff:
R1 vs. Elfs - 0 : 2 - Teammate from R5, too fast, too much, too elfish. He managed to get into the finals where he lost against TES, my R6 opponent.

Any thoughts about the decklists? Ideas vs. the Esper Blade Matchup or vs. the Elfs Matchup?

[Amazing Larry]

I think Dark Confidant works just fine in a BUG Delver list, but the typical list being run needs some adjustment. If I'm running Bob, I cut the Hymns for 4 Thoughtseizes. While Thoughtseize does hurt you more, it is important that you grab an opponent's removal with your discard. Here you're relying on Bob for card advantage, so Hymn's inherent advantage is less necessary than being able to pinpoint and grab what you want out of their hand to protect Bob. This does make the Sinkhole SB option a bit less effective, but you can easily try some number of Stifles in the board or maindeck if you wish.

[catmint]

I am currently also playing a stalker list. Just like everybody to keep having an open mind and try out things.

Lost in the finals of my 19 person GPT today.
Rd 1: Beat Goblins 2:1
Rd 2: Friend scoops
Rd 3: Beat Tin Fins 2:1
Rd 4: ID
Rd 5: Losse vs. RUG 0:2
4th after Swiss
Quarter Beat Sneak & Show 2:0
Semi Beat Omni-show 2:1
Finals Loose Maverick 1:2

I choose to play Thoughtseize over Hymn since I used to screwed myself way to often balancing the casting of Decay & Hymn while not loosing to be wasted of blue. I like that the mana is much smoother and that you get the information + the ability to take what matters. Versus combo it was a big deal! In some situations hymn would have been castable and more powerful but the situations where thoughtseize was the better card was more common. Hymn can be way more powerful but thoughtseize is more consistant. Also I feel that without deathrite the hymn deck-list's curve does not fith the manabase and often doesnt work properly.

Did not go for the Sinkhole package in the side since I did not expect UW or Jund. I mostly prepared for combo, Rug & Maverick.

My list for reference:

4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
1 Disfigure

Sideboard
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Engineered Plague
1 Sylvan Library
4 Submerge

[Barbed Blightning]

Well, since we're all sharing, here's my current list for BUG:

1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

3 Tombstalker
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

2 Disfigure
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder


SB: 4 Sinkhole
SB: 4 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay

Though I've loved Clique's performance, I've found myself wanting Tombstalker's presence on the field more and more, especially against Jund. 5/5 Flying for two mana is a hard bargain to pass up.

Disfigure is proving to be a welcome addition as well. Though the ability to outright kill Goyfs and Stalkers is missed, the ability to kill opposing DRS/Bobs without the punishment of 4 life is quite nice.

[Purgatory]

Played Team America to a decent 5-2 finish yesterday. 75+ people in the event meant that nobody below 5-1-1 top 8'd.

I lost against Dredge 0-2 (first-turn kill game one, mulled into no hate and no action game two) and UR Delver 1-2 (three tight and fun games).

I won against UG Infect (2-0), Rector/Omniscience combo (2-1), TinFins (2-0), Aggro Loam (2-1) and Goblins (2-1). The best game all day was against Loam, after losing game one I mull to four in game two, and the cadre of friends behind my opponent gave each other nods and glances. I open Underground Sea, Deathrite Shaman, Daze and Goyf. After playing the elf, he wastes me and pass and I topdeck another land, play Goyf, pass. He tries for Chalice, I Daze and in my turn topdeck another Goyf. I swing, play Goyf, he does nothing and pass. I topdeck Thoughtseize, nab a Dark Confidant to grow the Goyfs, swing for 10, pass. He scoops.

The friends are stunned and ask about my god hand. I shrug and sideboard for game three, really shaky. My opponent is on the big tilt and after stealing a Loam in his draw step with Clique, leaving him with only lands in hand, I win game three.

My list:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

SB:
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
1 Darkblast
2 Engineered Plague
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb

The board felt great, I boarded in everything at least once. MVP to Vendilion Clique out of the 15, who chump blocked infect creatures, stole Loams, and ate removal all day. The list overall felt fine, but I want to add another land, and I'll probably cut a discard piece for it. I also want to try Sylvan Library, and may cut another piece of discard for that and split the Hymn and Seize 2-2 or go all-in on one, probably the latter to keep a smoother curve and protect my dudes from removals. I chose to play the Seizes/Inquisition because in Sweden we love our storm combo and the meta was littered with TES, High Tide and their ilk. I dodged them, but to be honest I'd rather face TES than Dredge.

Another funny incident, in the Goblin match I opened a great hand game two and played a turn two Engineered Plague, and a turn five Engineered Plague. I had no pressure though and after my opponent vialed in Krenko and then Lightning Crafter (I think, a 3/3 champion goblin with T: Lightning Bolt), which my Abrupt Decay couldn't hit. In the end I had to Deed away the board on four, including my Plagues, and he topdecked a couple of creatures, killing me while at one life. Hilarious. Another sour part was that I drew the Dismember the turn after I had Deeded, one of two cards who could have dealt with the goblin in question. Even more hilarious.

[Maximus]

How was playing only 19 lands when you have 13 cards that you expect to pay 2 mana for?

[Purgatory]

How was playing only 19 lands when you have 13 cards that you expect to pay 2 mana for?

Not really as awful as one might think, but I had to mulligan a bit too often for my taste and as noted in my comments above, I'll add another land to the main deck for the next event.

DRS helped me out a lot with casting spells though, at least the times he got to live. :)

[phazonmutant]

This is a week old now, but BUG Delver won a 46 player event at MTG Deals: http://blog.mtgdeals.com/oarsman/mar...op-8-coverage/
I can't find decklists, but there's text coverage.

[Barbed Blightning]

This is a week old now, but BUG Delver won a 46 player event at MTG Deals: http://blog.mtgdeals.com/oarsman/mar...op-8-coverage/
I can't find decklists, but there's text coverage.

Gah all those missed triggers was hard to read about. Obviously, first is first. Anyone else find the pox MU to be easy?

[Mastikor]

Hey guys,
has anyone tried Winter Orb in SB to fight Esper/Miracles/greedy decks? I see some RUGs are running it lately, might be good. I tried Sinkholes, but didn't convince me that much. They are much more time-dependant and definitly require 4 slots in board, whereas Orbs are fine as 2-3 of. Also, it plays nicely with DRS, who providees you with extra mana. Thoughts?

[sdematt]

Disfigure is definitely a card. I've been playing it in BUG Control and have been loving it.

-Matt

[phazonmutant]

Hey guys,
has anyone tried Winter Orb in SB to fight Esper/Miracles/greedy decks? I see some RUGs are running it lately, might be good. I tried Sinkholes, but didn't convince me that much. They are much more time-dependant and definitly require 4 slots in board, whereas Orbs are fine as 2-3 of. Also, it plays nicely with DRS, who providees you with extra mana. Thoughts?

That's really cool tech! I can see it gaining a lot of tempo. I think it's worse than Sinkhole, though. It's probably better against Esper, but a very big reason for Sinkhole is the jund matchup. Jund not only has Deathrite but also has Abrupt Decay to get out of a Winter Orb lock.

[Barbed Blightning]

Disfigure is definitely a card. I've been playing it in BUG Control and have been loving it.

-Matt

I know, right? Kills so much stuff.