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Thread: Hulkanimator?

  1. #1
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    Hulkanimator?

    So, inspired by both Tin Fins and the 'Oozing' thread, I started thinking what else I could do in the same vein. This led me to think about Protean Hulk and his combo. Eventually I came up with this list:

    4x Protean Hulk
    4x Disciple of the Vault
    4x Phyrexian Marauder
    4x Shifting Wall
    4x Necromancy
    4x Dark Ritual
    4x Cabal Therapy
    4x Culling the Weak
    4x Lotus Petal
    4x Faithless Looting
    3x Reanimate
    4x Entomb
    4x Badlands
    3 x Phyrexian Tower
    4x Bloodstained Mire
    2x Swamp

    This list is still pretty rough, but I do enjoy goldfishing it as it's surprisingly fast and not as inconsistent as I thought it was going to be. The main problem that I see with this deck is that it requires 16 slots for its win condition, which doesn't leave too much space to fit in anti-disruption cards. I do like how casting one of the artifact dudes for 1 can turn into mana via Tower and Culling though, so that makes them at least not completely useless when you draw them.
    Last edited by Zupponn; 04-17-2013 at 03:56 PM.

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    Re: Hulkanimator?

    Did you considered Necromancy? It is expensive, but can win game "immediately".

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    Re: Hulkanimator?

    Hmm... forgot about Necromancy. It's probably worth testing in the Shallow Grave slot. I don't really think that the mana should be a problem.

    EDIT: And after some more goldfishing, I'm really liking it. It's so nice to not have to need a sacrifice outlet for the Hulk. OP updated to reflect that.

  4. #4

    Re: Hulkanimator?

    You might want to try something along these lines:

    //Protection
    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Thoughtseize

    //Card Draw and Mana
    4 Summoner's Pact
    1 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Entomb
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Lotus Petal

    //Combo
    4 Reanimate
    4 Necromancy
    2 Protean Hulk
    1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
    1 Karmic Guide
    1 Carrion Feeder
    1 Body Snatcher

    //Lands
    2 Phyrexian Tower
    1 Swamp
    1 Island
    3 Underground Sea
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Marsh Flats
    1 Misty Rainforest

    The summoner's pact allows you to grab hulk and discard yourself to reanimate. It also can search for elvish spirit guide to give you a mana boost. Adding brainstorms and ponders makes the deck much more consistent too. I reduced the number of dead cards by going to kiki-jiki win-con.

    Edit: 4 is probably not the correct number of pacts. I replaced 2 of them with the 4th thoughtseize and 3rd phyrexian tower and it seems to be working pretty smoothly.

  5. #5
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    Re: Hulkanimator?

    I like the different win condition. Definitely helps free up those slots. I'm also going to try out Footsteps of the Goryo in the place of Reanimate just to see how having a second reanimating spell that takes care of the sacrificing does for the deck.

  6. #6

    Re: Hulkanimator?

    how does the kiki combo win? get karmic (targeting hulk) and feeder, sac hulk get kiki, copy karmic, in response sac kiki, kiki returns targets karmic and so on?
    if the answer is yes what is body snatcher for?
    also how do we win if we play footstep? it sacs at end of turn.

  7. #7

    Re: Hulkanimator?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zupponn View Post
    I like the different win condition. Definitely helps free up those slots. I'm also going to try out Footsteps of the Goryo in the place of Reanimate just to see how having a second reanimating spell that takes care of the sacrificing does for the deck.
    Great find with footsteps of the goryo! Will need to test if it slows down the deck too much though.

    Quote Originally Posted by gozmit97 View Post
    how does the kiki combo win? get karmic (targeting hulk) and feeder, sac hulk get kiki, copy karmic, in response sac kiki, kiki returns targets karmic and so on?
    if the answer is yes what is body snatcher for?
    also how do we win if we play footstep? it sacs at end of turn.
    Right, you get infinite hasty karmic guides. Body snatcher is for when kiki-jiki or karmic guide are stuck in your hand (you can play carrion feeder normally). Sacrificing at the end step puts them on a 1 turn clock since you can go infinite on your next turn. If this is undesired, you can switch to the following kill at the expense of 1 more slot:
    1 body double
    1 carrion feeder
    1 reveillark
    1 mogg fanatic

  8. #8
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    Re: Hulkanimator?

    I'd personally use the extra slot for the instant kill rather than giving your opponent an extra turn to sneak in an Emrakul or something. I'm wondering if Death Cultist might have an advantage of being castable for a blocker in a pinch over the Fanatic?

  9. #9

    Re: Hulkanimator?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zupponn View Post
    I'd personally use the extra slot for the instant kill rather than giving your opponent an extra turn to sneak in an Emrakul or something. I'm wondering if Death Cultist might have an advantage of being castable for a blocker in a pinch over the Fanatic?
    It boils down to whether the inconsistent instant kill (cabal therapy can help) and not having to go through the attack step is worth the extra deck slot. I am leaning with you on that decision too actually. Another good find with death cultist, it's almost a strict upgrade over fanatic.

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    Re: Hulkanimator?

    Now, I really like the addition of blue and the nice, cleaner win condition, but I've been experimenting with a mono-black version that is sort of an update to my list in the OP for funsies:

    4x Cabal Therapy
    4x Dark Ritual
    4x Entomb
    4x Necromancy
    4x Footsteps of the Goryo
    4x Disciple of the Vault
    4x Shifting Wall
    3x Phyrexian Marauder
    3x Sensei's Divining Top
    3x Culling the Weak
    3x Summoner's Pact
    3x Protean Hulk
    4x Lotus Petal
    4x Phyrexian Tower
    5x Swamp
    4x Verdant Catacombs

    Sideboard:
    4x Phyrexian Revoker
    4x Ratchet Bomb
    4x Duress
    3x Echoing Decay

    The biggest thing that I've added has to be Top. It has been a world of difference and adds some much needed consistency to the deck. I really haven't been liking Summoner's Pact in this build mainly because if you don't kill them right there, you lose. I think that it's much better in the other shell because of the added disruption that you gain through Thoughtseize plus the kill from any life total ability. What I have noticed about the deck is that it can fight through a surprising amount of hate cards. They will probably need at least two in order to stop the kill. I think that if we go with the Body Double/Revillark/Death Cultist win con, then it's probably good to have the Kiki-Jiki/Karmic Guide combo in the sideboard to prevent stupid things like Leyline of Serenity from stopping us cold. That actually happened to me while playtesting on MTGO. Footsteps and Necromancy have both been great though. I have no desire to mess around with any other reanimation spells. Also, the sideboard above is just something I threw together hastily and is terrible, so ignore that for now.

  11. #11

    Re: Hulkanimator?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zupponn View Post
    Now, I really like the addition of blue and the nice, cleaner win condition, but I've been experimenting with a mono-black version that is sort of an update to my list in the OP for funsies:

    4x Cabal Therapy
    4x Dark Ritual
    4x Entomb
    4x Necromancy
    4x Footsteps of the Goryo
    4x Disciple of the Vault
    4x Shifting Wall
    3x Phyrexian Marauder
    3x Sensei's Divining Top
    3x Culling the Weak
    3x Summoner's Pact
    3x Protean Hulk
    4x Lotus Petal
    4x Phyrexian Tower
    5x Swamp
    4x Verdant Catacombs

    Sideboard:
    4x Phyrexian Revoker
    4x Ratchet Bomb
    4x Duress
    3x Echoing Decay

    The biggest thing that I've added has to be Top. It has been a world of difference and adds some much needed consistency to the deck. I really haven't been liking Summoner's Pact in this build mainly because if you don't kill them right there, you lose. I think that it's much better in the other shell because of the added disruption that you gain through Thoughtseize plus the kill from any life total ability. What I have noticed about the deck is that it can fight through a surprising amount of hate cards. They will probably need at least two in order to stop the kill. I think that if we go with the Body Double/Revillark/Death Cultist win con, then it's probably good to have the Kiki-Jiki/Karmic Guide combo in the sideboard to prevent stupid things like Leyline of Serenity from stopping us cold. That actually happened to me while playtesting on MTGO. Footsteps and Necromancy have both been great though. I have no desire to mess around with any other reanimation spells. Also, the sideboard above is just something I threw together hastily and is terrible, so ignore that for now.
    After more testing, I think the Kiki-Jiki win condition is fine since there's only a few things that can actually beat us if we reanimate with footsteps and don't have cabal therapy. We'll have infinite blockers so the opponent will have to win via storm or mill (annihilator 6 doesn't do anything). Having that extra card really helps from experience. Here's what my list currently looks like.

    //Protection
    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Thoughtseize
    1 Chain of Vapor

    //Card Draw and Mana
    4 Entomb
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    2 Lim-Dul's Vault
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Dark Ritual
    2 Chrome Mox

    //Combo
    4 Footsteps of the Goryo
    4 Necromancy
    2 Protean Hulk
    1 Carrion Feeder
    1 Karmic Guide
    1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
    1 Body Snatcher

    //Lands
    1 Swamp
    1 Island
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Bayou
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Misty Rainforest

    I've cut summoner's pact for more lim-dul's vault to improve consistency. The bayou and tropical island are for sideboard options (namely abrupt decay).

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    Re: Hulkanimator?

    This isn't a new idea. As soon as Entomb was unbanned, this concept started forming called Entomb-Hulk. Chapin wrote an article on it once.
    Anyway, a few points:
    - the Kiki kill doesn't go well with Necromancy and Footsteps. If you need the end-of-turn effect to bin Hulk, hasty fliers that die at end of turn won't survive long enough to attack. Yes, you miss the end-of-turn trigger the turn they come into play, but they die on your opponent's end-of-turn.
    - Consider Intuition - nice way to bin Hulk
    - Consider at least 1 Exhume (or reanimate) to speed up when you have a Therapy in the 'yard
    - DRS might be a better choice for acceleration than even Dark Ritual (or a compliment to it)
    - looks like you copied TinFins' mana base a little too closely. You need 1 more mana than Tin Fins (-), but you also have a bit more time (+) because you can go off at low life totals. Dump the Chrome Mox, and add a couple land (perhaps Ancient Tomb).
    - You'll be hard pressed to be a better deck than TinFins. I've played both, and TinFins is everything I wished Entomb-Hulk was. You have the same vulnerabilities (plus your feeder is vulnerable to about any removal and Hulk can be STP'ed if you can't sac him immediately), you need more mana, and your kill condition takes a couple more slots.

    Anyway, have fun with it, but just don't expect it to climb into DTB status.

  13. #13
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    Re: Hulkanimator?

    Quote Originally Posted by dameus View Post
    This isn't a new idea. As soon as Entomb was unbanned, this concept started forming called Entomb-Hulk. Chapin wrote an article on it once.
    I knew that somebody must have thought of this before. I just had trouble finding a previous thread for it.
    - the Kiki kill doesn't go well with Necromancy and Footsteps. If you need the end-of-turn effect to bin Hulk, hasty fliers that die at end of turn won't survive long enough to attack. Yes, you miss the end-of-turn trigger the turn they come into play, but they die on your opponent's end-of-turn.
    And then you make more. No big deal. But what your opponent can do during that turn is what I'm more worried about. That's why I prefer the Body Double kill.
    - Consider Intuition - nice way to bin Hulk
    Good idea! Another card to test out.
    - Consider at least 1 Exhume (or reanimate) to speed up when you have a Therapy in the 'yard
    Yeah, one of those is probably a decent idea.
    - DRS might be a better choice for acceleration than even Dark Ritual (or a compliment to it)
    Hmmm... it's definitely not as fast as Dark Ritual, but I'm betting that it would be decent alongside it.
    - You'll be hard pressed to be a better deck than TinFins. I've played both, and TinFins is everything I wished Entomb-Hulk was. You have the same vulnerabilities (plus your feeder is vulnerable to about any removal and Hulk can be STP'ed if you can't sac him immediately), you need more mana, and your kill condition takes a couple more slots.
    I believe that if you go for the Body Double instant kill, then you can just sac Double and then sac the Feeder (I've actually been testing out Viscera Seer too) while the Reveillark trigger is on the stack, then return both of them to play and continue the combo. One advantage that I do see of this deck over TinFins is the ability to kill your opponent at whatever would be the most opportune time by flashing in Necromancy.

    If anything, this is a fun deckbuilding exercise that I've been learning a lot from.

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    Re: Hulkanimator?

    I found the old thread ...

    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ck-Entomb-Hulk

    Perhaps you'll get a few more ideas.

  15. #15

    Re: Hulkanimator?

    Quote Originally Posted by dameus View Post
    I found the old thread ...

    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ck-Entomb-Hulk

    Perhaps you'll get a few more ideas.
    Another thread:
    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-Rebirth-Combo

    G1 MD weaknesses:
    1. Swords to Plowshares to Hulk while waiting for the end of turn bury trigger -> Phyrexian Tower works, of course, but you don't always draw into it. One option is to play MD Xantid Swarms and to animate Hulk in post-combat Main Phase. For an instant solution (e.g. opponent's combat phase or combo resolution), some people have used Slaughter Pact. Suboptimal options include at least Read the Runes, Divert/Misdirection, Spellskite. They have very little synergy.
    2. Opposing counterspells to Entomb -> one option is to play MD Xantid Swarms and play Entomb post-combat main phase. Other options include Vexing Shusher and Overmaster, but those are just slower = worse with less synergy as well.
    3. You are a goldfish for your opponent. If you are slower than opposing combo decks, and/or Affinity/Goblins/Delver could kill you, what are the good pairings you are left with?
    (4. Opposing MD Rest in Piece or T1 Moon effect can also be gg -> just dodge these match-ups in the pairings, mmkay?)

    G2-3 weaknesses:
    1. opposing grave hate. That's what has happened to Dredge decks in the past: win G1, lose G2-3 to grave hate. Unless there is no hate. But very likely, there should be. Also, the same problem as with Ooze decks: one piece of the combo is exiled -> the deck has no win condition. Dredge has way more resilience versus selective and one-time wiping (Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze, Bojuka Bog, Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Faerie Macabre, etc.) than Hulk does.
    option #1 fight through the hate with bounce, Pithing Needle, Abrupt Decay, Serenity, counters, etc. The problem is knowing what hate the opponent is going to bring in, since there are so many alternatives nowadays. And even then, it can be e.g. Extirpate / Surgical Extraction which can make a sad panda face. Tin Fins is so fast that it can occasionally just win outright if the hate does not become online T1, but with the Hulk combo the deck is likely to be slower and suffer from some problems. Also, Tin Fins can attempt to hardcast Griselbrand, who is a mean beater. Hardcasting a Protean Hulk, on the other hand...yeah, not that impressive beater.
    option #2 transformation sideboard = hey, the MD combo takes around 14 slots, let's switch them with another one
    having a mean G1 win percentage is nice and all, but playing 50+ % of your tournament games with a transformational, sub-optimal SB deck might not be as fun as you think. some options: Natural Order -> Progenitus; Rest in Piece -> Helm of Obedience; Doomsday; suboptimal Sneak & Show list; suboptimal ANT list; Thought Lash-> Laboratory Maniac. Out of these six, I found out while playing Ooze combo that SB transformation into Doomsday had the most synergy without losing too much reliability or speed. MD Dark Rituals, Lim-Dul's Vaults, Force of Wills, etc. retain their usefulness also in a Doomsday setting. The big problem with ooze into SB Doomsday was that an opposing SB Pithing Needle would successfully shut down both Ooze and Shelldock Isle (this was especially a problem in G3 against a knowledgeable opponent). But with the printing of Abrupt Decay, maybe this problem can now be overcome. Similarly, Rest in Piece is a much cheaper mana cost than Leyline of the Void and again, Abrupt Decay can destroy the opposing Pithing Needle -> Helm of Obedience.

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