Personal preference I guess, since you can't ALWAYS have Chalice on 1 in your opening 7. I don't necessarily agree with it, but bringing in some number of those spells would help to assure that you open on one of them without having to mulligan.Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
In every example your line of thinking is: I have drawn and resolved a chalice for 1, therefore card X loses some power/utility. That is just not reality. Some games cotv does not get drawn, others they make you discard it, others it does not resolve. All of the cards you mentioned supplement chalice of the void by building towards a critical mass of relevant cards needed to win a given matchup. Combo could have as many as 8 1 mana discard spells vs. you in game 2 while being on the play. If you kept a hand with cotv, you are not going to start t1 with it still in your hand.
Good points. I think Chris copied Caleb's list and didn't take out the Duresses. Caleb was only running 1 CotV, so the 1-cc wasn't as big of a deal (he ran multiple 1-cc cards in his sideboard).
I get your point, but on the same token, let's say that you do have Chalice on 1 and you draw into Duress, Pithing Needle, etc., then those cards are really, really bad.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
We have Jace, though, so it's not like they're always complete blanks if that happens.
It doesnt matter if your few 1 cmc cards are dead when a chalice is in play because you have a chalice in play so youre probably winning. Theyre very good against the given matchups anyway and are worth playing even with the small antisynergy. also you can transmute for the artifacts if you need to through a chalice.
Duress has been good to me against decks like T.E.S. that usually manage to destroy my chalice (Abrupt Decay can't be countered) early on, and just go off immediately afterwards. It's also handy in the fast combo matches where you might not have the option of aggressively mulling into a chalice.
Today I am become death. The destroyer of worlds. -Oppenheimer
Good point. However, they are going to Abrupt Decay Chalice at EOT, so Duress is in your hand and you can't cast it.
I've upped my 3Sphere count and also considered cards like Hymn and Liliana or Countersquall, Negate, Counterspell, and Mindbreak Trap. I'm also looking at Ravenous Trap for GY decks.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
But what's your deck list water wizard?
Modified version of the Chrises' lists:
4 Baleful Strix
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ratchet Bomb
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Dimir Signet
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thirst For Knowledge
3 Talisman of Dominance
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere
1 Transmute Artifact
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Seat of the Synod
3 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Island
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Underground Sea
2 Darkslick Shores
Sideboard
1 Notion Thief
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Damnation
2 Trinisphere
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Perish
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Countersquall
I tried Trinket Mage, but there aren't a lot of targets. The deck still needs some testing, but I've been doing well online.
I also tried Liliana, but she didn't work well with Jace's +0 and Tezz's +1. I'd like to find something solid in the 3 slot, but I'm at a loss as to what that should be. I looked into cards like Dimir Cutpurse, Shadowmage Infiltrator, Recoil, and Hypnotic Spector. All either too slow or creatures - I don't think more creatures is where the deck wants to go, but the card advantage from Cutpurse and Shadowmage is nice.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
My current list. I am lucky to have a play-test group with access to any Legacy deck including some of the weird fringe decks. It doesn't hurt that between myself and my brother we own every Legacy legal card in existence in multiples. This is at the moment a very refined list and I have been very happy with it.
Planeswalker:(7)
-------------
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Enchantment:(3)
--------------
3 The Abyss
Sorcery:(3)
---------
2 Transmute Artifact
1 Thirst for Knowledge
Instant:(4)
--------
4 Force of Will
Artifact:(22)
---------
4 Baleful Strix
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Talisman of Dominance
3 Dimir Signet
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ratchet Bomb
Land:(21)
------
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
Sideboard:
----------
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Perish
1 Engineered Plague
1 Damnation
1 Torpor Orb
1 Cursed Totem
I know a lot of people are scratching their head at the one of Torpor Orb... I have found that Goblins can win with a late game hasty army to get through The Abyss. Also Siege Gang Commander gets around The Abyss occasionally. It might not be right, but damn it feels right when they just slump in their chair across from you staring at The Abyss, Tezzeret and the Torpor Orb! The Cursed Totem is sweet when Mother of Runes tries to give a Knight of the Reliquary protection from black to keep The Abyss from working its black magic! Obviously its ok in other match-ups too like Death and Taxes(if they don't have that damn Mirran Crusader!). Good vs. Elves too. Torpor Orb actually has some value vs. Esperblade as well, but again maybe not everyone will agree with me on this.
One thing I do think I will end up tweaking is the mana base. Blood Moon scares the piss out of me at the moment.
Today I am become death. The destroyer of worlds. -Oppenheimer
With 4 Chalice, trinket mage is less exciting to get those 1cc targets, so he's been out of my lists for months. Chris' deck is very much like my lists prior to switching to Wurmcoils and Solemn's after Caleb's design. Thopter combo is really good.
Currently I am testing 1 Notion Thief MB because after I put everything together I had one flexible slot, so I figured why not try it out for a bit.
Never cared for V. Clique's MB. I go back and forth depending on what I feel my meta is going to be whether I have them in board or not. Same with Trinisphere, I would move it to SB. A 2/2 split with Thirst and Transmute Artifact feels right. I also think having the second Sword of the Meek is important as well. Helps being able to find it when you need it and also nice to be able to have a backup just in case your graveyard gets thrashed.
My manabase is a bit different. Never cared for the Darkslick Shores that much. I run a split of 3/3 with Ancient tomb and City of Traitors and 4 fetches and 1 Urborg for the time being.
Thoptersword version of this deck doesn't have as much pressure as the Solemn/Wurmcoil version does imo, and it durdles far more often, but that's ok. This deck is more about explosive turns then anything, it can quickly go from not taking any action, to flooding the board with plays and I like that about it.
I think the new planeswalker rule makes this deck a little bit nastier and I am curious to get more games in with the new rules.
Blood Moon has never really caused me any fits when I've played against it. The mana rocks tend to ease the pain of it hitting the table. I love The Abyss as well, though I don't know if I could go 3 MB, two seems like a sweet spot. I keep putting that card in and out of my deck, sometimes it's super hot and a lot of times it doesn't help me race a swarm.
I actually like Torpor Orb and have chewed on putting it in my SB as well. It's unexpected and it can do a lot more work then people realize. I don't know if it is better than simply casting an Ensnaring Bridge though.
Also, I too like to have a Leyline/Helm SB plan at times
Racing a swarm is actually why I like 3 The Abyss. I like to see it in my opening hand or draw it early to try to stop a swarm from ever forming. The Thopter army usually takes a minute to set up to beat opposing armies and I find that The Abyss is super important to stall for time to get the Thopter/Sword combo online.
Today I am become death. The destroyer of worlds. -Oppenheimer
Oh it's great if you get it early, it just doesn't help as much when they are already on the move and you draw it later. That's when Damnation gets sexier. However, both of the cards are situational, as has been discussed before. It all really depends on the board state when you draw either of them.
Very valid points. The artwork is just so sweet though! I was running all 4 Abyss at one point just because I have a playset, but that was definitely too cluncky. It is actually my favorite magic card of all time(tied with Eureka).
Today I am become death. The destroyer of worlds. -Oppenheimer
Thanks for your feedback. I tried the maindeck Notion Thief and I may switch back. The reason I went with Clique was because the 4-slot is already heavy with 8 cards and the 3 slot was lax - it only had 5 cards. Because the most powerful cards in the deck are 4-cc, Clique seemed like a nice 'clear the way' card at the end of turn 3.
With Transmute, I had 2, but I never really want to draw 2. Even with 1, the only things that I was transmuting for were Bridge or Thopter/Sword. I go back and forth on including Transmute at all. There aren't that many targets and it is card disadvantage (not to mention if it gets countered, then you've really shot yourself in the foot).
I'll consider the 2nd Sword. It also works really well with Thirst.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
Thanks for posting your list. I didn't quote the whole thing because I didn't want to take up a bunch of room.
I go back and forth on the Abyss. Nimble Mongoose is the number one reason why I don't run it.
How's your match-up vs. Storm and Combo? I take it that Leylines come in? Do you have any tips/advice for that match-up?
With the singleton Engineered Plague, is that better than Damnation or Night of Souls Betrayal?
I wouldn't be too worried about Blood Moon. You run 3 basics and 6 artifact fixers, if you expect it, fetch your basic Island and if you get one artifact source on board, you've effectively circumvented it.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
Wat. Transmute sacrifices on resolution, not on cast. It's meaningless if it gets countered (other than just being sadpanda).
Thank you. You are correct.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
My advice for the Storm matchup is to try to mulligan into a turn 1 chalice on 1, but a chalice on 0 is also effective. Ratchet bomb/engineered explosives takes them off empty the warrens, and yes Leyline is really good after sideboards go in to take them off grapeshot/tendrils/duress/cabal therapy. Chalice on 1 keeps them from chain of vapor'ing your Leyline too.
Today I am become death. The destroyer of worlds. -Oppenheimer
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