[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

[Tombstalker]

Gunseng
OK, I will try to express my problems.

My match ups were Stacks (1:1), Miracle Control (1:2), Esper Blade (1:2) and Nic Fit (0:2). My impression was that TA is on a clock. If you do not manage to deal critical damage to an opponent early on, you will lose to a resolved bomb (e.g. Grave Titan, Jace + Counterbalance/Top, Liliana). I kept trading well with my opponents only to just lose in a later turn when I did not have the necessary answer. I feel that I have to be more aggressive but the deck does not have the power to be really fast. My main problem is that I do not know what hands to hold. I used to play Canadian some years ago and I was taught that you rarely mulligan, because you do not have any card draw. I played TA the same way and therefore held some slow hands with only filtering, counter magic and disruption, but no creatures. Is this the correct way to play? Also, I do not know how to sideboard with this deck.

The idea to add hymn is interesting, I will have to test this. However, I am unsure whether Stifle and Hymn work well together, as Stifle needs open mana and Hymn makes you tap out.

Stifle and hymn aim to do the same thing, stunt mana development. Its arguable which is better, hymns potential is greater but its riskier while stifle is more difficult to use correctly. Against many of the current DTBs id say stifle is superior but here im not certain, maybe even consider thoughtseize in some number.

The decks you faced are not easy matches either way and each will crush TA if the game goes long so you are reduced to being the aggressor. I would look to land an evasive threat asap and ride it out while saving disruption and counters for their removal and card filtering, oh and manabase although this will be harder (hymn is probably better vs those decks packing basics), but forcing/dazing senseis top stifling explorer etc will go a long way.

Unfortunately most of those decks run StP (and terminus aaaand jace) which are horrible for stalker, one of our 'trump' cards. I would board stalkers out for cliques which are awesome against control. Also consider adding dread of night and engineered explosives to your board to handle tokens along with the single pulse.

On your board I dont know what you commonly face but I would look to replace these:
1 Flusterstorm
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1-2 deathmark
2 Engineered Plague
1 Infest
1 Krosan Grip?
with the above suggestions of DoN/EE plus some targeted discards, liliana(s), submerges and maybe more broad countermagic. Personally I really liked lilianas in the main and she does have really good synergy with discard effects. Also its probably down to preference but I prefer dismember over disfigure since they both answer T1 DRS and such but disfigure cant handle some of the things that can actually race your flyers.

Meanwhile abrupt decay answers many of the scarier cards like countertop and challice, as well as batterskull which doesnt fly so if they want to durdle with SFM let them then decay the token or stifle it.

Lastly dont be afraid to mull to an aggressive hand because hands with either no threat or too many threats usually end badly as you found.

Its been awhile since I sleeved up TA but last time I did I think I was on a mix of hymn and stifle with less creatures then the current norm.

Anyway hope that helped a little.

Edit- hell if this is what you expect to face commonly you might even consider a 3rd clique... their fantastic.

[twndomn]

I've never understood the logic of running infest to kill your own Delver and DRS.

Now many people are onto the Young Pyromancer bandwagon, Golgari Charm should be in every decklist, perhaps even Main Deck.

Which idiot would MD EE? Why would you intentionally create anti-synergy to reduce the chance of Delver flipping by wasting an instant/sorcery slot onto artifact?

The biggest advantage of BUG over RUG is obviously Abrupt Decay. It comes down to Abrupt Decay vs Lightning Bolt, pick your weapon of choice.

[Purgatory]

The biggest advantage of BUG over RUG is obviously Abrupt Decay. It comes down to Abrupt Decay vs Lightning Bolt, pick your weapon of choice.

I think this is over-simplifying it a lot. Another very important difference is Stifle vs. Thoughtseize/Hymn (that is, being reactive vs. being proactive).

Mongoose and Stalker are also very different threats who shine in very different match ups.

[Tombstalker]

I think this is over-simplifying it a lot. Another very important difference is Stifle vs. Thoughtseize/Hymn (that is, being reactive vs. being proactive).

Mongoose and Stalker are also very different threats who shine in very different match ups.

I agree with this. Also wcm8 is/was maindecking EE and while not usually advisable I can see certain instances where it is a consideration and I respect his ability and experience with this archtype. For the record my suggestion was for the SB just in case that was misconstrued.

On the topic of tombstalker for sec, the card is near the top of my alltime favs list but with the printing of DRS I honestly think maindecking vendilion cliques is just better. They come down earlier/as early, bring instant disruption to add to blacks discard and have evasion. Clique is on par with TS for ending the game since its earlier damage makes up for power 3 plus it takes your opponents answer. Dropping 1 goyf and 1 stalker for 2 cliques is very appealing, in fact a 3rd might not be a bad idea especially since TA has historically operated on a bare minimum blue count for FoW.

Bottom line TA will never be as efficient as RUG that only runs 3-5 CC2 spells so it may as well look to slightly higher cost higher value cards like hymn, decay, clique, liliana, library etc.

[twndomn]

Bottom line TA will never be as efficient as RUG that only runs 3-5 CC2 spells so it may as well look to slightly higher cost higher value cards like hymn, decay, clique, liliana, library etc.

If you follow that line of logic, you just need to take 1 more step: play strix and Shardless. Before you know it, you are not playing TA, you are playing Shardless Bug.

[kingsey]

I agree with this. Also wcm8 is/was maindecking EE and while not usually advisable I can see certain instances where it is a consideration and I respect his ability and experience with this archtype. For the record my suggestion was for the SB just in case that was misconstrued.

On the topic of tombstalker for sec, the card is near the top of my alltime favs list but with the printing of DRS I honestly think maindecking vendilion cliques is just better. They come down earlier/as early, bring instant disruption to add to blacks discard and have evasion. Clique is on par with TS for ending the game since its earlier damage makes up for power 3 plus it takes your opponents answer. Dropping 1 goyf and 1 stalker for 2 cliques is very appealing, in fact a 3rd might not be a bad idea especially since TA has historically operated on a bare minimum blue count for FoW.

Bottom line TA will never be as efficient as RUG that only runs 3-5 CC2 spells so it may as well look to slightly higher cost higher value cards like hymn, decay, clique, liliana, library etc.

I wouldn't totally count stalker out. He blows out RUG, and basically anything without Swords to Plowshare. He can be casted for 2 mana, cant be killed with EE, decay, or deed. He walks all over people. I also don't like to try and be as " Efficient " as RUG when our cards are stronger then theirs. They can't kill our goyfs and we decay theirs.

[Tombstalker]

If you follow that line of logic, you just need to take 1 more step: play strix and Shardless. Before you know it, you are not playing TA, you are playing Shardless Bug.

I think thats what many people did but its not my style.

I wouldn't totally count stalker out. He blows out RUG, and basically anything without Swords to Plowshare. He can be casted for 2 mana, cant be killed with EE, decay, or deed. He walks all over people. I also don't like to try and be as " Efficient " as RUG when our cards are stronger then theirs. They can't kill our goyfs and we decay theirs.

All great points and all reasons I love tombstalker and TA, well said.

[Enric]

Live Streaming of a Legacy Daily Event with Team America today at 19:30 CET / 10:30 PDT here:

http://es-es.twitch.tv/enricluzan/

[kingsey]

Tough day at scg Philly for me today. Either mana flood or no blue lands at all :(

[Purgatory]

Tough day at scg Philly for me today. Either mana flood or no blue lands at all :(

Same here, but in a local.

My losses were to ANT (killed me on turn one game one, I mulled to four in game two) and Reanimator (turn two Grizzle with double counter back-up both games), and there's not much to do against variance :(

[kingsey]

Back to DTB. Must be mostly Europe. All the American kids just copy the shardless list if they play BUG

[TheArchitect]

Back to DTB. Must be mostly Europe. All the American kids just copy the shardless list if they play BUG

Locally (Upstate NY) I see at least twice as much turn out, and success, from people playing BUG tempo compared to Shardless.

[Kagehisa]

Do you guys plan to play Swan Song, considering the bonus that you can cast it on your own Abrupt Decay and get a 2/2 blue Bird creature token with flying ? (Yes, it costs BUG mana and Abrupt Decay won't be countered by Swan Song.)

How is 2/2 blue Bird creature token with flying for U is in Team America ?

[P-AiR]

Have we tried Divert in the current Meta in the sideboard?

I'm mainly thinking of just how strong it is against other tempo decks i.e. RUG. Where they have so little mana little way, it'd be easier for us and advantageous to '2 for 1' them. Perhaps I'm being greedy here and flusterstorms should suffice but it really plays into the tempo game.

Not to mention that it's really only good against a select few decks - other tempo decks RUG/BUG delver, burn. In those match-ups I would replace FoWs with diverts for the tempo gain.

Possible targets include:
Ancestral Vision
Discard spells
Removal spells

Thoughts?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Do you guys plan to play Swan Song, considering the bonus that you can cast it on your own Abrupt Decay and get a 2/2 blue Bird creature token with flying ? (Yes, it costs BUG mana and Abrupt Decay won't be countered by Swan Song.)

How is 2/2 blue Bird creature token with flying for U is in Team America ?

That's a cool idea, but isn't it too conditional? I mean, it's a 3-color, 2-spell combo that at best gets you a 2/2 flyer. Kills Delver plus whatever the Decay is aimed at, but overall isn't it lacking in power?

-ABC

[Einherjer]

That's a cool idea, but isn't it too conditional? I mean, it's a 3-color, 2-spell combo that at best gets you a 2/2 flyer. Kills Delver plus whatever the Decay is aimed at, but overall isn't it lacking in power?

-ABC

I know another combination of two cards that costs 3 mana... I think it does something stronger than putting a 2/2 flyer into play.

Greetings

[kingsey]

Have we tried Divert in the current Meta in the sideboard?

I'm mainly thinking of just how strong it is against other tempo decks i.e. RUG. Where they have so little mana little way, it'd be easier for us and advantageous to '2 for 1' them. Perhaps I'm being greedy here and flusterstorms should suffice but it really plays into the tempo game.

Not to mention that it's really only good against a select few decks - other tempo decks RUG/BUG delver, burn. In those match-ups I would replace FoWs with diverts for the tempo gain.

Possible targets include:
Ancestral Vision
Discard spells
Removal spells

Thoughts?

Seems ok, I sometimes run out of gas when BUG suspends visions then they fill back up. If I could draw the 3 instead of them it would be hard to loose. I feel very comfy with my rug delver match. A simple tactic that works is waste their tropical then extract them. They have to kill you with delvers and bolts. Much easier match when you remove their ability to drop 8 of their threats

[Qweerios]

I have been juggling with bUrg, Grixis, RUG, and TA late, and tested a great deal of different colors, threats, and spell combinations. I tried Stifle vs. additional counterspells, Thought Scour vs. Gitaxian Probe, Tombstalker vs. Mongoose, Goyf vs. no Goyf, Decay vs. Bolt, Snapcaster vs. Clique, and the list goes on and on and on...

In the end, the list I ended up with is what I feel is the most tempo oriented, most consistent, and most versatile tempo deck I have played as of late. It looks and feels a lot like RUG, except that it is less aggressive but more tempo-oriented, and more versatile. I chose to post it in this thread because it is BUG colored:


Creatures (12)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose

Spells (30)
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Dismember
4 Abrupt Decay

Lands (18)
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea

Sideboard (15)
2 Submerge
2 Envelop
2 Flusterstorm
2 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Dread of Night
1 Sylvan Library


Having AD + DRS > Goyf + Bolt is the main difference. The SB is very similar as REB becomes Envelop, Grudge becomes KGrip, Sulfur Elemental becomes Dread of Night, and Rough // Tumble becomes Golgari Charm. Most games whether I play RUG or this, are being ended either by early Delvers or late Mongoose. However;

In the tempo mirror: AD tends to outshine Bolt by a large margin.
In the tempo mirror: DRS tends to outshine Goyf by giving you that extra mana to out-tempo your opponent or put you on par when on the draw, granting recurring reach, and preventing threshold and controlling Goyf size. A resolved DRS makes you the predator in this matchup because you usually get to produce twice the amount of mana, allowing you to Waste and Stifle merrily while laying down threats and filtering your draws.
-More tempo, more potent disruption, less raw aggression, worst "all-in" plan

Vs. control matchups: AD is clearly superior to Bolt as it answers problematic permanents reactively. Decay allows you to recover from a resolved CB, RiP, Deed, Bskull, Jitte, etc... while Bolt is usually underwhelming.
Vs. control matchups: DRS and Goyf both have their pros and cons. DRS is versatile in dealing with different areas of the game while Goyf is the better win condition #9-12. I am usually not concerned with the size of my threats when the goal of the matchup is to get any threat to stick. DRS has about as much staying power as Goyf against AD, StP, Deed, Verdict, Terminus, etc...
-More outs, more disruption, less raw aggression, worst "all-in" plan

Vs. combo matchups: Bolt and AD are both weak, but Bolt can at least be used. They both come out in G2 and G3 regardless of your deck.
Vs. combo matchups: DRS is superior to Goyf because of his lower initial cost. Having a bigger "clock" vs. combo is generally irrelevant if it means giving your opponent an opportunity to go off safely.
-About as many dead cards

Vs. aggro matchups/midrange: Goyf clearly outshine DRS with its raw size, but DRS is always an annoyance and worthy of removal in these matchups.
Vs. aggro matchups/midrange: Bolt is generally better than Decay because it costs 1 less mana and the deck generally has other ways to circumvent huge threats. Bolt is better at burying your opponent while Decay is better at getting back into a match.
-Less threats, less aggression, takes on the control role

Overall, losing the burn reach isn't that bad, it's doubling the mana cost of my main removal spell that hurts. However, what you lose in tempo on that aspect, you gain back by trading DRS for Goyf. SB options are fairly similar, I don't miss Red Blasts nearly as much as I thought I would. Fact is, I simply don't need as many SB tools when I gain so much versatility in the form of DRS and AD. Tempo is smoother, Control is better, Midrange feels better, Combo remains relatively the same, and Aggro is a bit more challenging. It's all about trading a bit of one-sided aggression for a lot of versatility.

One could argue that you can always trade Mongoose for Goyf and amount to a different analysis as well. I am still testing out different combinations.

[catmint]

Nice overview and evaluation about the different card choices in certain matchups.

Here my thoughts on some stuff where I don't agree.

Tempo mirror:
AD vs. Bolt. Uncounterable and killing tarmogoyf is big, but cmc 2 mean not being able to EOT or to have 2 plays in the same turn means that you will lose tempo. DRS cannot make up for that factor since it will die way too often I think. Also the is awkward with BG asthe 2 "splash colors". Mana will be disrupted and there will be awkward fetching situations. I think the strength of AD in your list compared to Bolt in RUG is much closer than you think. Just imagine how strong a spell must be for Canadian if it costs RG in order to REPLACE lighting bolt.

Goyf vs. Deathrite: Deathrite can be very powerful early, but mostly it will be a bolt target. In the late game a goyf is so much better against the lightning bolt deck. Not having goyf means you can only defend vs. goyf & goose with your own goose and the removal, which you will also have to use on delver.

Canadian also has Red-blast for the mirror which is very strong. Overall I think Canadian is favoured-

Another very big factor these days are the elves and death and taxes matchup. 1CMC removal is soooooooo much better in these matchups than AD and rough tumble > golgari charm.

[Qweerios]

@Catmint,

RUG and bUrg are the matchups I have tested the most against with this deck lately (12+ games or so) and I usually come out on top. Getting the right colors for Decay has never been an issue because I will always go for a Trop and a Volcanic. There are no reasons to fetch the same land twice so casting Decay is only a matter of getting 2 lands in play (AKA: casting Goyf). For this particular matchup, it doesn't matter that Decay costs 2 mana because that's usually what Bolt costs in a tempo mirror when you have to account for Daze, Pierce, Flusterstorm, and FoW. I play 6 removal spells that can answer Delver and Goyf and they play 4-6 that can answer Delver and DRS. They play the same game here where they have to choose to remove Delver or DRS. Basically, there isn't enough removal in either decks to eliminate the entirety of your opponent's threats. The main difference here is that instead of having to find a Goyf to match a Goyf, I can find uncounterable removal to match a Goyf or a Delver and power through instead of stalling the board. An early DRS will literally prevent threshold and manage Goyf sizes. With that done, I can concentrate on reaching threshold myself and counter their removal or stifle their manabase.

As far as dealing with DnT and Elves, those are matchups I have a lot of experience against (Roommate plays DnT and 2 dedicated Elves player at my local store). Black cards are generally the best at dealing with swarms and maverick-type decks (Darkblast, Deathmark, Disfigure, Virtue's Ruin, Perish, Engineered Plague, Dread of Night, Golgari Charm, etc.). Rough // Tumble can be mitigated by pro-red and red-removal-based decks have much difficulty dealing with active moms while black has more outs to an active mom. I am not convinced that Rough // Tumble is superior to Golgari Charm because the latter is relevant against Omniscience and Sneak (SnT), RiP (DnT post-board), and can protect your threats from Verdict/EE (Stoneblade) and AD/Deed (Nic Fit). However, I do agree that 1 CMC removal is better against DnT and Maverick pre-board.

Also, it's not like Goyf is out of the question either. You can always find a way to squeeze in 2-4 Goyfs in there... Or even Oozes!