Stifle?Originally Posted by Gheizen64
I like how Twitter arguments between huge players tend to say more in necessarily fewer words. I feel like I just absorbed a dissertation on Magic written by Melville in pill form.
It's true that it doesn't matter what color TNN is -- as a conceptual card it is just a deadweight. It's the Burn.dec argument condensed into one card; what happens to your opponent's strategy when the cards they play are based on interaction, and you fundamentally deny that interaction by presenting them with no targets? Nice StP/Verdict/Terminus; Bolt Bolt Spike Fireblast, umad?
I think mostly the "wtf this isn't even a Blue card" stuff is basically because at the end of the day, when you look at the litany of shit that Blue 'oopses' into -- Show and Tell, Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage -- and compare it against what it is already predominantly good at; namely drawing more game pieces (more 'aw shucks I'm good' cards) and denying the opponent's strategy anyway via counterspells… if you look at it all together and then look at TNN, it's almost like it's just fucking rude. No it isn't broken, it's just this incredibly solid creature that fosters no interaction and is surrounded by tools in its color to prevent that interaction from ever needing to resolve. To pop that card in a set that claims "oh it's not that good because multiplayer" when you know how it works in 1v1 Legacy, it just feels like bad manners.
Also, I don't buy the argument that True-Name Nemesis makes traditionally poor Black removal better. A turd is still a turd; such spells might push other decks with too many 1/1s out of the format, but it isn't like a decent Elves player was going to be wrecked by a Golgari Charm before TNN. Why the fuck would they start sweating now? Untargeted -X/-X and Engineered Plague effects weren't the things keeping Goblins at Tier 2 all these years. It might be a necessary evil, but don't act like it's not a narrow answer; it's okay against a Blue deck that lets it resolve, it isn't that great against everyone else. Toxic Deluge is probably an exception to this since it scales pretty well, but it needs to pass inspection first.
For that matter, TNN is still pretty fresh-out-the-box, but early signs indicating "why, yes, this is a good and healthy card for this format" aren't looking so good.
Twndomn, the fact that you would compare TNN to Geist shows you have no idea what you're talking about. Come back in a month and reread your comparison. TNN doesn't do much against combo decks, which is why people are switching over to combo decks. TNN destroys the "fair" decks, leading to dumb games of land TNN first, counter/strip opponent's narrow answer, ride TNN to victory. I really hope we see this card banned because it is probably the most unfun card ever printed. Magic, regardless of format, is supposed to be about interaction. I played in a Vintage tournament earlier this month, and there was more interaction than there was in the TNN-soaked Legacy tournament the day before. That's depressing.
Really? I'd rather a blue opponent resolve a TNN against me rather than a Show and Tell, wouldn't you?
That's a lacking comparison. TNN doesn't require building your whole deck around it. It's just a 3/1 creature for 3 that happens to be very stupid. If you counter it, fine. Sneak Attack on the other hand, while pretty stupid as well, is strategically on a completly different level. I wouldn't mind see either go, but right now I only want Sensei's Divining Top and TNN gone.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
Blue would most likely adopted it either way if it had been white.
Bitching about the wrong color is still legit, though, because the shit Wizards has been doing since Innistrad is not okay. Why play other colors when blue gets all the goodies? It's not like the meta isn't a huge chunk of Brainstorm decks.
This is one of those "And you are lynching Negroes!" arguments. Show and Tell may or may not be unfun and uninteractive, but that's irrelevant in this conversation. Actually, check that, if Show and Tell and fast combo in general is a problem, then TNN might be making it worse by promoting decks that don't care about 3/1 dudes with no disruptive abilities.
For the record: if TNN ends up permanently warping the format and needs to be banned, so be it. If it comes down to this, I'd rather have a healthy, diverse format, than be able to play or resell the 3 copies that I own.
Oh, a red functional reprint of Snapcaster Mage would be great. :D
Show and Tell is symmetric and actually a really funny card. Look at the picture and the flavor text!
True-Name Nemesis in contrast is serious to the death, probably an incarnation of WotC's dislike of the Legacy Format, it's the nemesis of each and every magic player! Even its name is fittingly chosen just like that of Mental Misstep which in fact was a big mental misstep!
What you dislike about Show and Tell are the ugly abominations that drop out of it like Emrakul, Progenitus, Griselbrand, Jin-Gitaxias or whatever is new.
Before Progenitus got printed or maybe a little bit earlier Show and Tell was a 2 EUR card and one of the best targets was Akroma.
Hmm, along the lines of a red Snappy M.TNN is the best red planeswalker yet printed.
Chandra, Playable 1UU
Chandra cannot lose loyalty.
+1 Bolt your opponent.
+1 Next turn, if an attack is declared you may bolt target attacking creature. If you do, that creature deals no damage that turn.
"If magic is your crutch, cast it aside and learn to walk without it." —Teferi
I think this is probably the strongest argument against TNN. Wizards is very concerned about, "unfun" cards. I think the finals match at DC may be quoted as part of a reason for banning come December or they may take a pass for now to see if the format can adjust. Either way if it doesn't get banned by march I think we're stuck with it for the long term. Can't say I'll be playing too much non-combo legacy until TNN is banned though.
To not thirst for power is to be at the mercy of those that do
It's funny how people argue that TNN is useless against combo. The card pitches to FoW. Can Tarmogoyf do that?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Statements from Maro's blog in response to True-Name Nemesis questions:
Question: ridiculousthingsathomegoods asked: "Desptite being in the Commander decks, it's pretty obvious that True-Name Nemesis was not designed for EDH. He's inarguably worse in multiplayer, and a 3/1 isn't impressive in the wrath-heavy, 40-life, battlecruiser format that is EDH. What say you?"
Answer: "I talked to the card’s designed, Mark Gottlieb. He says he designed the card for Commander. Did development possibly push its numbers for Eternal formats? I don’t know but maybe. Was he designed for Eternal formats? No."
Question: ongelvin asked: "With regards to True Name Nemesis, I think people are making noise because it amounts to a better Invisible Stalker in [Eternal/Casual] duels. What are your thoughts on resilient, evasive creatures in multiplayer products?"
Answer: "In the format it was created for, there are answers to it - other players."
For some reason, Maro's statements always make me angry. It's like he doesn't even play Magic. Sure, we printed this card, but you're not supposed to play it in those formats ...
I somewhat agree with this post. They definitely pretend to care about unfun cards. To be honest, I feel that December is probably too soon for a ban.
While all of the complaining about the card, having to consider sometimes narrow answers for this one card, and the fact that it isn't interactive is kind of annoying, it's pretty valid. The problem is that people cry wolf so often that it's not likely to be taken very seriously until it not only continues to prove it's high level competitive dominant, but that it's just not fun. The argument about counters being unfun and a deterrent for new players (i.e. Their cash cows), can only really be paralleled if there is noticeable uproar from these demographics which may include EDH crowd. Though, as already acknowledged, TNN isn't going to upset people or make waves in EDH which is the only format where it will see play outside of eternal. I believe the attitude will be that eternal has the tools to deal with it.
Unfortunately, I feel jaded to say that we're not often heard when we complain about cards being unfun. There was a period of time where if that were the case we would have either seen a top or counterbalance ban.
The card is new. My main concern is that although viable decks have shrunk (feel free to disagree), Legacy is still such a diverse format that having to run narrow answers for this one card will dilute main decks and sideboards to the point where decks are less consistent or resilient against more matchips unless the TNN becomes so ubiquitous that the answers are warranted.
For the meantime, I think it would be more constructive to come up with more answers that are useful against TNN while also having value against existing decks. Although TNN provides inevitability and is unfun, it's ability to just straight up win games isn't super apparent. We'll have to endure a long period of boring TNN mirrors before they admit it shouldn't belong in 1v1 eternal.
I'm currently testing An-Zerrin Ruin and Magnetic Mountain. Frustrating because these seem bad and you've likely taken damage but it answers TNN and can be useful against some other match ups.
What other answers have people come up with that haven't been brought up here? There are more and I know we're all tired of golgori charm, toxic deluge, engineered plague, etc.
"I made a Redguard that looks like Kimbo Slice. He wrecks peoples' shit. And dragons." - Bignasty197
Those are just the questions he's actually answered. I've asked him multiple times why a fan-made format (EDH) gets more consideration and care than a sanctioned one (Legacy). No answer as of yet. Of course, we all know why..
Because it generates more revenue for WotC? Is that a problem. I wonder how the meta will adapt with the Vegas invitational so close and Providence providing a strong east coast scene to draw from.
I hear ya. They simply don't really care too much how a card can affect formats like Vintage and Legacy. I thought Geist was bad enough, now you make an unblockable one that can't be damaged. Non-interactive cards. Thought that what was they were trying not to do. Nope.
As for cards that can deal with TNN....
Meekstone is ok. Although you do get hit at least once. Runed Halo is a narrow answer. Doesn't stop TNN from being a wall but it does stop it from damaging you. Ensnaring Bridge is decent and at the GP I used Humility and Zealous Persecution which worked.
I bumped the red blast count to 3 and 2 golgari charm. I tried 2 divert today as well, but it was a little cute.
Although I agree the card is extremely boring, uninteractive and is a dagger to creative deckbuilding I am not sure I agree with the card being ban worthy in terms of power level. I feel like I have a higher tolerance for playing with ridiculous cards because the first standard season I played in had all these cards legal: Dark Ritual, Necropotence, Yawg Will, Brainstorm, Force Spike, Mana Leak, Counterspell, Forbid, Dismiss (and some more counterspells), Wasteland, Stone Rain, Mother of Runes, Goblin Lackey, Gaea's Cradle, Show and Tell, Sneak Attack... Anyways, I still think TNN may be Wizards' sick way of undoing all the creature power creep they've introduced so far, because now if you want to turn guys sideways there's 1 logical option. And if you're fed up with turning the same guy sideways you go and play combo! Thus shifting the meta towards a more non-creature centric one.. Don't know really. On the other hand TNN vs TNN, hammering each other type of battles feels too much like Jace vs Jace battles to me and seems on par with the decision they took about the legendary rule earlier this year. No thought process involved, I hit you you hit me and whoever gets to go first wins the game!
Legacy: Rituals
Vintage: Drains
In my opinion, playing Magic, as everything, is a race, everything has a clock, and TNN is just changing some factors and some cards in some sideboards. It´s not putting a X turn clock, just it changes a bit the pull of removals we are going to need in future, and I´m talking about 2-3 cards. So, it´s still a impressive card, but every color has cards to get rid of it.
PD: I think this is going to be played just in Patriot, Bant and stoneblade
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