Would you like to see True-Name Nemesis gone?

[Zilla]

Bro youre level of ignorannece is..... I can't even.

This is the very definition of irony.

[Barook]

Maverick most certainly hasn't "gone in and out" before. If you look at all of the data for 2012 and the data for Jan-Nov 2013, Maverick never fell out of favor. I would ask that you show me data from that 23 month timespan that would suggest that Maverick wasn't a major meta player.

Maverick is pretty much unplayable on MODO for months now since its meta consists of a myriad of shitty match-ups. And there isn't even a TNN released yet.

If I'm not mistaken, then TNN is going to be released on MODO in the next few days. It's going to be interesting how the online meta is going to change, considering TNN has unlimited availability over there and 3 daily events per day firing at a highly competitive level. We're going to see meta changes much faster there.

[Dice_Box]

This is the very definition of irony.

New quote for me, thanks.

[dontbiteitholmes]

All the same arguments against TNN are the ones used against Modern. The compassion is fair.

The biggest complaint I hear about Modern is the itchy trigger finger approach to the banned list, so it's ironic you cite the format as any kind of model for what the banned list in Legacy should be. Also we were having this same conversation about Goyf when it first came out, you can dig up the thread if you want. Pretty much the exact same argument. It's too powerful, no reason not to run it, it's its own best answer, too hard to deal with, invalidates too many other creatures... Also Modern kind of sucks. If anything I want Legacy to be as little like Modern as possible and I'm sure most people here would agree. If you want TNN banned fine but don't bring Modern into the argument or you already lost in my book.

Anyways if TNN gets banned they should ban Goyf too so I can play Flame Tongue Kavu again.

[Koby]

Anyways if TNN gets banned they should ban Goyf too so I can play Flame Tongue Kavu again.

I've got a Psychatog deck ready to go if we're back to those Golden Days.

[HSCK]

I've got a Psychatog deck ready to go if we're back to those Golden Days.

MadTog 4 ever.

Also the Tarmo Thread

[Dice_Box]

The biggest complaint I hear about Modern is the itchy trigger finger approach to the banned list, so it's ironic you cite the format as any kind of model for what the banned list in Legacy should be. Also we were having this same conversation about Goyf when it first came out, you can dig up the thread if you want. Pretty much the exact same argument. It's too powerful, no reason not to run it, it's its own best answer, invalidates too many other creatures... Also Modern kind of sucks. If anything I want Legacy to be as little like Modern as possible and I'm sure most people here would agree. If you want TNN banned fine but don't bring Modern into the argument or you already lost in my book.

Anyways if TNN gets banned they should ban Goyf too so I can play Flame Tongue Kavu again.

I do not think I have said I want it outright banned. I have said I want it gone but that is not the same thing.

The issue I see mostly bought up about Modern is that the format is a bunch of people hitting past each other with no other way to win a game. The ban list comes up but after a while I started tuning out of Modern ban list talks. Most of us do not play the format so its not like we really have experience in this matter. We compare it to legacy and I do not think that is a fair comparison.

The issue that I have with True Name is that feeling of hitting past someone. Two players at a table, each with a True name is the most boring thing in the game to watch. Both players just digging to find something to add an edge. When someone drops a second copy it just becomes worse. To me this is a flaw of the card. I think if it had of had a "Can not block" clause it would still be a bitch of a card, but then it would have had a single role. Maybe it could have had Defender. I don't know. I do know this though, the card is so badly worded that I swear it needs a silver boarder. The thing just does not fit in this game. Its just too poorly made.

Now we may look back in a year, laugh over how much of a fool we all where and joke about these talks, but I do not think that will be what happens for me. Because if they pull this shit again, if this is the direction this game is going, I will hold onto my Goblins for sentimental value, cash out and maybe go to the US for a holiday or something. Because I want to play Magic, not Whack a Mole or Solitaire.

You do not all have to agree with me, but this is really how I feel about it. Magic the Whacking.

I've got a Psychatog deck ready to go if we're back to those Golden Days.

Fuck Tog, DOG FOREVER!

[Zombie]

MadTog 4 ever.

Also the Tarmo Thread

Tarmo was before six years of creature power creep. It was literally the first of it's kind, a clue of a new world. Tarmo is just a grizzly bear, but it was a grizzly bear from the land of giants. We didn't live in the land of giants, so of course it constricted the format. We do live in the land of giants now, figuratively speaking.

I do not think I have said I want it outright banned. I have said I want it gone but that is not the same thing.

Still don't understand this. At all. Gone how? Making it gone now that it's been printed is the same as banning it, you just talk about it with a different word that doesn't give those scrub cootie shivers.

[Dice_Box]

Print me a card that says "Target player Sacrifices a Creature of your choice." and I will say that's a dam good start. You can kill a card more than one way. I would love to see it gone, a clean cut, but I do not know if that will happen. So print me cards that kill it effectively and call it there. Make me able to interact with it as I could any other critter and then we have a go.

[Megadeus]

MadTog 4 ever.

Also the Tarmo Thread

Was reading the thread and saw this:

A foil Japanese Tarmogoyf sold for $147.50 plus shipping on ebay last week. Wow.

Lol

[HSCK]

If Tarmogoyf stays in the meta and is not reprinted it will be just as expensive as Sea Drakes and Force of Will and all the other cards that are Legacy staples and not in print.

Doubt so., At least, not for a long while. Force of Will is a Vintage Staple, and Sea Drake is from freaking Portal... While Future Sight is quite a recent set with some good cards.

This is the best. But maybe this thread will be viewed the same way in a few years too.

[Arsenal]

According to thecouncil's data I provided, Maverick most definitely was a major meta player in 2013 with exception of December. It averaged 9th place from Jan-Nov 2013, with it's highest position at 5 and lowest at 13.

I thought thecouncil was being used by everyone in this thread. Are we using some other source for data now?

[rxavage]

Not to derail or anything but I haven't personally seen someone sleeve up Maverick in almost a year, right around the time that Gris and Emma kicked it's teeth in.



It's probably been over a year but my point stands.

[HSCK]

According to thecouncil's data I provided, Maverick most definitely was a major meta player in 2013 with exception of December. It averaged 9th place from Jan-Nov 2013, with it's highest position at 5 and lowest at 13.

I thought thecouncil was being used by everyone in this thread. Are we using some other source for data now?

Bob's metagame analysis of top performing decks.

[Lava Spike Spiegel]

MadTog 4 ever.

If we're listing outdated Teeth decks I gotta rep GAT.

[(nameless one)]

MadTog 4 ever.

Also the Tarmo Thread

LOL history is bound to repeat itself.

[dontbiteitholmes]

LOL history is bound to repeat itself.

I'm pretty sure there's also a thread somewhere with like 20 pages about how oppressive Goblin Lackey is because he requires a first turn answer.

The more things change the more they stay the same. People will always want to ban whatever card doesn't allow them to play the kind of Magic they want to be playing.

To be honest in the context of the time it was dominant Goblin Lackey was probably the most "oppressive/format warping" creature ever to exist in Legacy. It pretty much invalidated every tier deck when people realized how good Goblins was and the format completely turned upside down in a matter of a couple months. No more spending your first 3 turns dicking around with Squee and Survival, no more cycling Eternal Dragon into turn 4 Nev Disk, and for me no more UR draw/go metagame control deck with MD Blood Moons. I mean Goblins came in second at GP Flash for fuck's sake and that was years later. I personally liked playing slower more grindy games, so I wasn't a big fan of Lackey but I adapted and found new decks that didn't scoop to turn 2 Lackey connect into Siege-Gang.

TNN can't piss in the shadow of what Lackey was back then, it's not even what Goyf was. If you can't adapt, and I'm 100% serious, you are playing the wrong format. People get all bent out of shape when I say that because they think I'm insulting them (and in a way I am), but it's true. Yes TNN is good, a lot of creatures have been good, even better in the past. Lackey and Goyf were the same deal, people complained because the cards that answered them were not part of the meta (Lackey required turn 1 answers and Goyf didn't die easily to Bolts or normal combat damage), but we all moved on and gave up our pet decks that couldn't hang and the format progressed. Don't expect the rules to change now and creatures to start getting banned because one GW midrange deck went from tier 2 to tier 2.5 or you don't feel like having to play the cards that answer a new threat.

Sorry, but that's what happens. New cards come along and old decks either adapt or get pushed the fuck out the format. I personally don't care if we lose Maverick since it's been a tier 2 at best deck for a long time now. It was a metagame deck, now the metagame is different, deal with it. TNN is good but it has answers. I think it pushes the format in a slower direction and encourages board sweepers and I'm fine with that. Zoo, Goblins, and Maverick have all had enough time in the sun it's time to bring the hard control decks back IMO.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Becareful, some people here don't want to be told to ADAPT.
I totally agree with you about the lackey/goyf/ tnn comparison. But oh well, some of the people here will choose to live in their caves and whine and moan about the tnn apocalypse. They'd rather be afraid of a single creature than find new ways to deal with it, or the decks that play it.

Also for the record there's no way that 5 page weak ass thread was the Goyf thread I remember, try some of these.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...hout-Tarmogoyf
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...hout-Tarmogoyf
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-Ban-Tarmogoyf
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...e-the-ban-list

According to thecouncil's data I provided, Maverick most definitely was a major meta player in 2013 with exception of December. It averaged 9th place from Jan-Nov 2013, with it's highest position at 5 and lowest at 13.

I thought thecouncil was being used by everyone in this thread. Are we using some other source for data now?

You are trying to make the numbers fit your narrative.

The stats you post are boosted by earlier in the year when Maverick was actually a deck to beat. As far as ranking by number of top 8's goes...

In June Maverick was the #3 deck.

Maverick was 10th in August.

Maverick was 8th in September.

Maverick was 14th place in October, TNN was released November first. TNN is so broken it made Maverick fall off before it even got released. Oh wait Maverick had over twice as many top 8's in November as it did in October... I'm so confused, what was your argument again?

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/met...&fecha=2013-11

[Bed Decks Palyer]

...Because if they pull this shit again, if this is the direction this game is going, I will hold onto my Goblins for sentimental value, cash out and maybe go to the US for a holiday or something. Because I want to play Magic, not Whack a Mole or Solitaire.

You do not all have to agree with me, but this is really how I feel about it. Magic the Whacking.

...Things went so far that I'm selling my stuff and keeping just RUG (I'd keep BURG, but money don't stink), whereas I'm rebuilding and PIMPING my twelve years old casual deck that I will never again play because our group is long dead, yet I still want to own a nice non-blue, non-retarded, non-8thEdition deck.

_____________________

...Don't expect the rules to change now and creatures to start getting banned because one GW midrange deck went from tier 2 to tier 2.5 or you don't feel like having to play the cards that answer a new threat.

Sorry, but that's what happens. New cards come along and old decks either adapt or get pushed the fuck out the format. I personally don't care if we lose Maverick since it's been a tier 2 at best deck for a long time now. It was a metagame deck, now the metagame is different, deal with it...

Holmes, although I really agree with you on the metametagame analysis, I'd still love if people stop calling the "unwillingness to adapt" and "tiredness of shitty design" the same. I'm glad that I may adapt my RUG and cut the Forked Bolts so that I may laugh at all the "me solves fromat" combo newbies. Sure, they'd be dodgin' TNN all day long... until I utterly crush them with my maindeck Flusterstorms, grab the prices and get out of lgs laughing.

Becareful, some people here don't want to be told to ADAPT.
I totally agree with you about the lackey/goyf/ tnn comparison. But oh well, some of the people here will choose to live in their caves and whine and moan about the tnn apocalypse. They'd rather be afraid of a single creature than find new ways to deal with it, or the decks that play it.

Dude, consider you post reported.

[ESG]

Sorry, but that's what happens. New cards come along and old decks either adapt or get pushed the fuck out the format.

"Adapt" has to be the most parroted, most knee-jerk, most hollow advice given throughout these threads. It's actually hilarious when you see look at the previous arguments over the years.

MENTAL MISSTEP

... And please don't call Mental Misstep "unfair". It is a situational card. It is good, but not over the top "omg needs to be banned"-like. I like it, i play it, but its far away from beeing imbalanced.
Anyone who says that decks are dead because of Mental Misstep or Force of Will has not played Magic long or good enough.

Now that Misstep is here, people are complaining it is warping the format. It isn't 'warping' anything, folks; it's a product of a lack of creativity. There is a huge influx of new players running brews they see listed on Star City's website or by word of mouth from friends, and those folks just pick those decks up and run with them. Legacy is at an all-time low as it pertains to its 'creative' aspect, which is why you see the same decks like NO Rug, Hive Mind, etc. running the gauntlet week in and week out. I still feel the format is fine, though. There are lots of different archetypes winning each week, which is what makes the format great.

This. People will adjust.

SURVIVAL

Just adapt to the format: ignore Vengevine. Smash them in a face with Tendrils or 2/2 Zombies. Format is based on playing 200 creatures in a row? Combo them out.

... It's just a good creature deck and people need to realize that their much loved pet deck of Goblins, Zoo, and Merfolk don't beat the crap out of Survival. Play something different already. Storm and Control have almost no problem with Survival.

... And like Vacrix said, survivine with or without blue is a combo players dream. Only 4 forces and sometimes not a blue card in hand to pitch to FoW? Hell yeah I'll face that MU all day long with SI, TES, or even belcher. Solidarity can also beat the deck pretty easily since the survivine can kill on turn 4 at the earliest and that's with a god hand that doesn't happen very often and if a god hand doesn't occur we have extra turns to sculpt our god hand.

Thank you. Veggies loses to combo decks as they are faster and run more ways to protect their faster combo than Veggies runs to disrupt them.

HULK FLASH

Ok I want to address somethings. A few people are talking about adjusting to Flash. What you really mean to say is it's warping the format, that every deck has to play hate for it or lose to it. Flash Hulk is alot worse then Goblins will ever be.

I know alot of people have already made up thier minds about flash and say it should and will be banned June 1st but what if the metagame adjusts and flash turns out to not make as strong a showing at grand prix cloumbus as everyone thinks? I remember dragon had alot of raw power and resliency but it was actually balanced out by the fact that it could be hated out with certain archetypes. I read in an article(I forget who wrote it sorry) on SCG that people wanted flash banned because they couldn`t play the decks that they liked anymore and all this fussing is just people not wanting to change. I`m not saying its true or untrue but its at the very least a point of view that should be explored.

Hulk Flash isn't quite broken yet. Without Summoner's Pact and Pact of Negation it loses a lot of consistency. Thankfully those cards won't be legal until after Grand Prix Colombus.

I'd let it prove itself first in a tournament setting. If it's the Second Coming, like so many whiny bitches are saying it is, then we'll know first hand and can take action from there. I trust very little what people say online, and if it's so bah-roken, take it to the GP and show us all. Otherwise, I'm rather bored with hearing how it bones the format.

The format is always warped one way or another to fight the top tier decks. We've had a shift to fighting fast agro decks using agro-control with some pure control and some combo all playable.

Now our top deck will be combo and decks will have to readjust. Agro-control will still work... probably more so than ever, it will just have to adapt a few cards to combo instead of adapting them to agro like they did before. Things change, that is good.

Bad decks won't beat it. Shucks.

Are Legacy players just a mob of unthinking buffoons? No way. Believe it or not, people playtest and switch decks, and there are adjustments from one SCG stop to the next (which you can observe mostly from the high-profile players). What history shows us from these "Adapt!" examples is that people tried to beat the card and they found that either it was better EV to play the card themselves or totally switch strategies, such as the calls (in the Survival section) to play faster combo decks. And that resulted in format warping every time. Anyone can metagame to any environment. You could run four Leyline of the Void in your Elves deck if Bazaar of Baghdad was legal. That would be "adapting." But it wouldn't mean that Bazaar was OK for the format.