I'm still not following why you would ever want to intentionally place a bridge in their graveyard?Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner
EDIT:
Ok Now I see what you're saying. Because you'd exile it with the vet as part of flashback.
Hello everyone,
So, finally I got to play with my heavy planeswalker (Vraska Fit) list and reached 4th on a 6 swiss rounds tournament (30+ players) without top 8.
Here is a quick report and my list:
Lands
1 Polluted Delta
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
Creatures:
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
2 Baleful Strix
4 Veteran Explorer
Planeswalkers
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Vraska the Unseen
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
Artefact
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Enchantment
3 Pernicious Deed
Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Negate
4 Brainstorm
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Negate
Round 1 Draw 1-1 against High Tide
Game 1, I sac'ed an explorer early game and ended up giving him too many island so he could go off turn 3...
Game 2, extirpate on tide & time spiral got me there.
Game 3, I had the game under control but we went to time :-(
Round 2 Lost 1-2 against Show & Tell
Game 1, I had to mull to 5 and the game was pretty over after a turn 2 S&T into Emrakul
Game 2, He mulled to 6 and I ripped his S&T and flashback it for sneak attack. a Jace and a Vraska came down to seal the deal.
Game 3, I was screwed by a blood moon by turn 2 which prevented me from playing my negate to counter his S&T on turn 3. Like a champion I drew into Liliana but got forced :-(
Round 3 Win 2-1 against BUG control
Game 1, My Jace came after a pernicious deed and was enough to seal the deal.
Game 2, Got mana screwed and lost pretty quickly to double goyfs...
Game 3, I taught my opponent that Vraska > Jace :D
Round 4 Win 2-0 against Junk (no Kotr just lingering souls)
Game 1, Jace and Liliana sealed the deal after a pernicious
Game 2, Same as above
Round 5 Win 2-0 against Miracle (legend version)
Game 1, double pernicious on board with an unanswered Jace got me there
Game 2, Very long game where Liliana got countered and I was toying with vraska and ashiok and my opponent with Clique and Venser (with karakas). Finally I got rid of Clique thanks to Abrupt decay and he managed to kill Vraska, but Ashiok got me there. Eventually, my opponent scooped with 3 cards left in his library...
Round 6 Win 2-1 against Pikula splash red (for blood moon and bolt MD)
Game 1, I kept a very slow hand with liliana, Jace, Vraska and got stomped.
Game 2, Liliana and Jace got me there
Game 3, he scooped to a resolved Ashiok facing an empty board (which will be followed up with a Jace by next turn)
To sum up, the list was a pure blast to play. Vraska is a monster in terms of stalling games where Liliana/Jace would fail. I killed twice with Vraska's ulti. Ashiok was interesting all day long and could be considered as the 4th Liliana. I like his +2 and the fact that it could kill where Lili just cannot.
I think the SB has to be improved by a lot. I used it only twice during this tournament (Game 1 & 2) and kept the same 60 for the rest of the tournament.
It crushed fair.decks so hard and struggled so hard against combo.deck.
I'll welcome any advice/questions.
Thanks for reading.
Ps: Went home with a Taiga for my efforts !
Yeah. Like I said there's probably a better sequencing of plays, and or at the very least varying ones for various situations. But it's tricks like these that can slow dredge down to a crawl (or at least manaless dredge: my experience with mana'd dredge is admittedly rather limited).
Deck looks sick. How is ashiok? Seems pretty solid in a format with so many efficient creatures
What do people think of a Krosan Grip in the SB as an answer to Batterskull? The mana shouldn't be the problem and it is an uncounterable, permanent way of dealing with it.
As a one-of, I would not say that he is THAT impacting.
However, I was always happy to draw/brainstorm/sensei into it.
He is Liliana n°4. His +2 usually means that he could tank better than Liliana while I draw/dig into more answers.
I guess he is just cute. But I did some nasty things with discard followed by ashiok to screw opponent's brainstorm to hide his key cards :D
I stole some creatures with it (goyf, true name, mongoose) and got to ultimate once with him.
He shines against control and blue.deck (like liliana). But unlike Liliana, he can kill. And my miracle opponent learnt it the hard way.
For example, against karakas+venser, my opponent could not kill him while I was slowly ripping of his library.
At last, I guess Ashiok is just my "fun" toy. You can easily replace him with something else.
Meh
I think it's too narrow.
If you're really having trouble beating it, run an extra threat. It would take up less sideboard space since it could be gsz'ed for.
In BUG Fit, I will probably end up running 2 KGrip. Not only because of BSkull though, just in general because my meta is like Blade variants, Tribal, and Stompy decks.
With punishing version, I didn't had much problem dealing with it. Between Liliana and maelstrom pulse, supported by PF, you can easily render Batterskull useless by sacrificing the token. Then, when they land it, you pulse it. I've played a tournament recently on which both my matches against it I was able to deal fairly easy with it.
Enviado de meu Nexus 4 usando Tapatalk
Ralf, I really like the idea of running a heavy-PW list. I've recently started running BUG Pod and I like this as well, though a few things stand out at me:
1) Only 9 creatures+1 GSZ, but only 7 of them can be targeted by GSZ. Is the Volrath's Stronghold necessary?
2) With only 7 of 9 creatures easily killed, including 4 you intentionally suicide, can you reliably protect the planeswalkers from getting killed?
3) I really like the BUG Control lists like what Carsten Kotter was writing about on SCG these past 2 weeks. Is there an opportunity to run a hybrid list, cutting the 3 1-of creatures+GSZ, upping the Strix to 4 (so that you can get value out of Therapies by having 8 targets) and running an extra Decay, Deed and an EE?
4) How do you deal with Batterskull?
WTB doubling Season.
Current Build: Punishing Rhinos http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post927726
God. 5 mana do nothing enchantment seems TERRIBLE. To be honest that does not seem good at all.
I really like Vraska though in a slower meta. Seems pretty solid. Just comes down and eats a problem Permanent, then ticks up and trades with any of your opponents men, and if they dont kill her off you either get to win by assassin, or eat more permanents? Seems super grindy, but powerful.
Doubling season is ok if you run rector.
You'd need to have the right 'walkers too. Specifically garruks and sorin.
1) Volrath is for grindy games where being able to replay a thragtusk or a witness/baleful matters. And yes, those situations happens.
2) Well try this list ! PW are pure Card/Tempo advantage. Between few 2 for 1 blockers (baleful, thrag, witness) and pernicious it is really easy to protect them. Sometimes you will lose some of them but all in all they usually trade 2 for 1. Not to mention that they can protect each other. For example, you -1 Jace while building up Lili and vice versa.
3) You can definitely tweak the deck, but Thragtusk & witness & Ooze are good alternative kills. Futhermore, in some MU you will need the life gain ability (trust me). You are the control deck.
Witness is Pernicious n*4 or whatever.
Baleful is nice against aggro but poor against combo.
Thragtusk is a 4 turn clock after deeding the board.
Ooze will take care of annoyance such as PF or grave based strategy.
At last you can reuse the ETB triggers with Jace. I did it a non 0 amount of times. Having access to infinite deed / or life gain is nothing to scorn at. And remember that Thrag leaves a token behind each time it leaves the battlefield.
We are a bug control but a Nicfit bug control :-)
And yes 1-of, I used to play with a 2nd zenith over the 4th brainstorm but after side brainstorm > zenith...
4) Batterskull is a joke. Between Jace, Liliana, Vraska you will end up eating the skull alive. If not you will discard/negate it.
Bounce, make your opponent sacrifice the token, try to -3 it with Vraska and make your opponent discard it to Liliana.
At the very last, if you are not convinced, I can tell you that you dig really fast with this deck. And when it comes to attrition war, you are just a better deck. Why ? Vraska kills opponent's Jace/PW.
I'm glad someone else is playing a BUG fit deck without Force of Will. Obviously I'm on pod and you are on BUG fit walkers, but I just don't feel that force is completely necessary
I actually dropped Forces myself: it's one thing to run them in a blue heavy deck, but to run them in something like Nic Fit pretty much makes your deckbuilding and sideboarding strategies rather limited and suboptimal just to make Forces reliable.
Agreed. I found thattout last week. Didn't face combo at all, then only ended up boarding in either my third deed, or when I played shardless my notion thief
So, i attended to a 40 people Legacy tournament to a pitiful 2-4 result. I played HoneyT's Punishing list here with just a few substitutions for cards i do not have and one alteration in the sideboard:
-2 Bayou/+2 Overgrown
-1 Badlands/+1 Blood Crypt
-1 Wooded Foothills/ +1 Mountain
-1 Bloodstained Mire/ +1 Mountain
-1 Surgical Extraction/ +1 Abrupt Decay
This will be my first report, so please feel free ask and point out things I forget to bring in. Also, I am a inexperienced legacy player, so i ask that you point out whatever misplays you see. I only did notes on the first two rounds, so these will be more detailed.
Round 1 vs. Burn: 0-2 (List light on creatures - Guide and Hellspark only)
Game 01: Had no idea of what he was playing. Kept GSZ, Therapy, Top, Witness, Deed, Fetch and Grove. I go Fetch -> Swamp -> Top. He suspend Rift Bolt. I then therapy for Lightning Bolt, missing. He then goes another Rift and Lava Spike, leaving me at 10. I Zenith Vet and flashback for the two Searing Blazes i saw with the Therapy, and actually hit 3 of them, so he only have a flame rift on his hand. He draws and passes. I land a Huntmaster, going to 12 life. He goes flame rift, so I'm at 8. I fetch-top trying to find a tusk or the other Huntmaster, but fail and wrongly fetch a Taiga. On his turn, he prices me for 8 and I die.
This game i completely forgot about price, and that was a huge mistake, but i actually think that it would not have matter. I was at 7 life at that point, and without the taiga and considering that I would then be able activate my fetch that was in play to get a basic, price would leave me at 2 life. Had I anticipated Price, i could have been able to sandbag one of my nonbasic and still play the Huntmaster. But that would leave me at 4 life, and if I'm not mistaken he had a fireblast or some other burn + Barbarian Ring, so i would have died anyway.
Sideboarding: -1 Titan, -1 Pulse/ +2 Surgicals.
Game 02: I mull to 4 after diposing: an one lander 7; a good 6 card hand but without green source; and an irrelevent 5 card hand, keeping perhaps an unkeepable 3 nonbasics and a liliana. Of all those hands, i would be probably better with the 6 card but no green source... Liliana is not fast enough, and i just die to his card advantage.
0-1
Round 2 vs. Sneak and Tell: 0-2
Game 01: I win the roll, but have no idea what he's playing. After i play my first turn he lands an island and pass. Fearing Brainstorm an unable to decide on which combo he was, i make the mistake of letting he play his 2nd (he BS on EOT) and 3rd turn without trying to go for discard. He Shows a Grisell while i show a huntmaster. After buying cards with grisel and a series of activations of Ancient Tomb, he goes to something like 4. He then sneaks zodiac dragon hitting me for 15, going up to 11 or so. The point here is that, due to my noobish self and to him playing too fast the ability of zodiac Dragon (putting it directly on his hand), I miss the play that my ooze could have removed his dragon with its effect on the stack. He was open for an attack, so if he hadn't sneaked the dragon and blocked my 3/3 Ooze, i would have hitted him for 9 with it, Huntmaster and 2 wolf tokens. Ozze being blocked, i leaved him with 5 life. The thing was that i had two PF on my hand. He claimed that he had counter, but had my ooze hit, just one of the two PFs I had in hand would be able to kill him, as he was also tapped out on mana.
Sideboarding: +3 Carpets, +3 REBs, +2 TSs, +2 Golgari Charms, +2 Slaughter Games, +2 Surgicals
-1 Titan, -1 Tusk, -1 huntmaster, -1 thrun, -4 PFs, -2 Decays, -1 G,PH, -1 Deed, -1 Wolf Run, -1 and 2 other things i don't remember (maybe another deed and a witness)
Game 02: I keep a Therapy, Carpet, Tusk, Lands hand hoping to find a cheaper body to flashback Therapy or some more interaction. I blind therapy SnT hitting one, seeing 2 emrakuls, BS, and a sneak attack. On my 3rd turn I'm able to land Tusk thanks to carpet, but can't flashback Therapy due the BS. He uses it on EOT, finding just the acceleration he needed to Sneak a Emrakul turn 3. GG.
0-2
Round 3 vs. Merfolk: 2-0
Game 01: He states that he's an inexperienced legacy player, and that becomes clear very quickly. I didn't knew what he was playing, and kept a very good fair hand with deed. He goes island pass, but on his second turn he plays the drawing merfolk. He then vomits his hand on the BF, until i play a Deed on the fourth turn to avoid Daze, as he was already tapped out of lands. He was applying pressure, and I'd already taken some damage. i had a Vet in play that he kept tapping with Reejerey, but he went out of merfolk spells. Then to land a direct attack, he misplays dismembered the Vet, giving me mana to deed His board away before the attack. He asked to redo his play, but he already had dragged his lands out of his library. I almost let him, but as himself admitted, he weren't going to be able to recover from deed, as i would just land big Garruk after deeding away his board.
Sidebording: +3 REBs, +1 Decay/ -1 Titan, -1 Vet, -1 Lily , -1 Garruk i think. I thought of bringing charms in for eventually dealing with TNN, but figured that they would have to be too precisely timed to work on TNN, as a mere lord already puts it out of charm range.
Game 02: PF engine goes on with 2 Groves and just takes the game. He had one moment that he could have activated Relic of Progenitus and sacrificed it on the same turn to get rid of PF. But then a 3rd grove came, and he never saw a Wasteland. Also, if he had used his Vial with a little more perspicacity, he could have saved a couple of his merfolk. But he wasn't able to assemble the same pressure of the first game (just two lords and one that would had to be sandbagged, against the three early ones of the 1st game). Then, what i believe it was Huntmaster beat him to death.
1-2
Round 4 vs. URW Delver: 1-2
Game 01: This game goes really grindy. I kept a 2 liliana hand. He starts off with Delver -> Brainstorm on Upkeep (Btw, it was the same in each of the three games...). But my deck responded really well to every thing that he landed on the battlefield. PFs eats delvers, he lands SFM, reaching for Baterskull. Another SFM joins the battlefield, grabbing sword, but therapy deals with it. It came too late to prevent batterskull form entering the battlefield, though. Meanwhile PF keeps his man dead. Double PF kills the germ token. A TNN joins the party, but is sacrificed buy double Lily (one for SFM, one for TNN). He lands a wasteland and reach 5 lands for bouncy bouncy plan. I fear for my grove, but knew that he would use it for mana into Skull. I then sandbag my pulse in hand, not activating lilys first ability (she was with 1 counter). He then delivers the bounce, tapping out of mana. I draw a land, activate lily to leave him with one card in hand and prevent FOW, and then Pulse the damn thing. In the next turns, big garruk joins the party and he scoops. This game left us with little more then 10 minutes on the clock.
Sidebording: +3 REBs, +1 Decay, +2 Golgari Charms
-1 Titan, -1 Garruk, - 4 oher things (maybe a vet, a therapy, a witness and tusk or thrun)
Game 02: I keep an amazing hand (or so i thought), with PF, Double Groove, REB and deed, plus two other nonland cards (maybe a decay and a witness or GSZ). But i had no black source. I keep it nevertheless, hoping to find one. But i never draw another land, get wastelanded on his second turn and die really quick to triple delver with just on land on the field. Losing this game was a bummer, because i knew that i would not have the time to win on game 3. Maybe he could, but definitely not me.
Game 03: I don't have much memory of this game, but, like i said, he again starts with delver Brainstorm. I'd already decided to concede to him had we reached time and he was ahead, so i didn't paid much attention to the game. What i remember was drawing a Golgari Charm after delver transformed, which made me think that it was a mistake to go for it in this MU. The games goes around a little, but my answers come with some delay, and, in the end, i died on the last 5 turns.
1-3
Round 5 vs. Deathblade: 2-0
Game 01: I knew he was on Deathblade, so i sandbaged my therapies for his Equipments. And on this first game I was able to put each equipment of his deck on his graveyard before they did anything relevant. He dropped a jitte in t2, which was decayed. Then when 2 SFMs landed and searched for sword and Batterskull, both of which I was able to discard. Without TNN ever seeing play this game, i won pretty easily after this.
Sideboarding: +3 REBs, +1 Decay i think. I believe that i didn't brought in carpets nor Slaughter games, cause he didn't run any basics and i'd seen no Jace on game one.
Don't remember what i sided out.
Game 02: Goes pretty much the same as game 01, except that he did landed a TNN. Lily quickly took care of it, though. I think this MU is favorable, isn't it? I mean, at least much more then esperblade. For what i saw from the list after the match was over, it drops a lot of multiples of the cards that are really troublesome to nicfit on the stoneblade MU (Jace, StP, even counters), to add mostly irrelevant DRS. Also, they run no basics, which means one sided explores.
2-3
Round 6 vs. Storm (wishless PiF tutor version): 0-2
Game 01: I knew he was on Storm, but my opening hand was really decent, to say the least: Therapy, Liliana and a GSZ for therapy flashback. Unfortunally, he won the roll. He goes probe -> Therapy to lily. I guess that he was afraid of arbor. I then blind therapy for infernal tutor. The reason for the tutor was that i knew he was on some kind of different storm list, and i was only sure that it ran infernal tutor. I hit one, but see Grim Tutor, LED, Petal, Dark Ritual and Cabal Ritual. I pass and he goes off. There was no hit from Therapy that would have stopped him from going off.
Sideboarding: +3 Carpets, +3 REBs, +2 TSs, +2 Slaughter Games, +2 Surgicals
-1 Titan, -1 Tusk, -1 huntmaster, -1 thrun, -4 PFs, -2 Decays, -1 G,PH, -1 Deed, -1 Wolf Run, -1 and 2 other things i don't remember (maybe another deed and a witness)
Game 02: I mul to 4 searching for interaction, only seeing a REB on previous hands. I keep a no lander Surgical, REB, Therapy, Lily. I don't draw any land and die on his 3rd turn.
2-4
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Well that's about it. I ask you to point out whatever different approach that you would have adopted so that i can learn and improve my own game. Also, here is the breakdown of my metagame, so card choices' suggestions are also welcome. Thanks.
5 Death And Taxes
4 Burn
3 Merfolk
3 Reanimator
3 Jund
2 UWR Delver
2 RUG Delver
2 Esper Stoneblade
2 UW Miracles
2 Nic Fit
2 Sneak and Show
2 DeathBlade
1 Junk
1 Maverick
1 Storm
1 UR Delver
1 High Tide
1 BG
1 Enchantress
1 Goblins
1 Rogue (RG Ramp)
@ Nithkar: Your best bet against Burn is to treat it as a combo deck: that is, drop Deeds, Pulses, Decays and any other removal that you think wouldn't work well, and throw in extraction and/or discard effects like Surgical Extraction and Thoughtseize/Duress.
I was really in doubt about bringing in the Thoughtseizes. In my mind it would not be worth it because of the life loss. But now, with your comment, i guess that even 1 life saved is worth more then nothing, and can actually mean the game. My restraint with dropping removals is that is really useful to get rid of Burn's creatures, as Punishing list is lighter on chump blockers. But i'll definitely make room for TSs next time. Thank you.
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