To Mr. dontbiteitholmes,
It would appear as though our parallel discourse has landed us at odds with regards to the nature of Magic: the Gathering. This is unfortunate, and I must take responsibility for my language and tone in crafting this impasse. It was not my intention to cast you as any adversary in this, and for that I apologize. I reflect now that the source of this discussion stems from the two of us looking upon the same object and perceiving two different things. Permit me to say, that through your eyes, Magic is a collectable card game. This is fine. As is that I can say, through my eyes I see a collectable card game. We must both recognize that these differing viewpoints are equally valid and correct.
My history to this game has always been as a game, to play and be played. Single cards cost money, some more than others, and this was all fine with me. Some cards were better than others, so why should their value to me and others not follow? But the inevitability was that they were all pieces of a whole, and that eventually a game would be played. Because if not then why bother with the whole system? Without a game at the end, these cards were no different than baseball cards, something that has never held interest in me.
Which of course is not to say that baseball cards are worthless, nor that those who do collect things like coins and dolls and lunchboxes aren't without reason in their doings. Of this group is how you appear to be identifying yourself, and again, this is fine. There is no game to be played with antique coins, and yet they have value. I cannot pretend to properly understand why, and must admit I find some of the standards a bit silly. And yet in writing this, I must reflect on the circumstances to what a collector must think as they watch person after person take highly valuable collector's items and subject them to irreversible wear and tear for no other reason that to play a children's game.
To avoid an otherwise dichotomous relationship, we must let our two differing views on this exist without belittling the others stake in the whole enterprise. It could come to pass that Magic goes the way of many other nameless CCGs it itself spawned, the cards themselves worth only their value to you, the collectors. Without a single game ever played again, a 9.5 Alpha Black Lotus will still incite some bids at auction. It has been shown that this could exist in many forms, through baseball cards and matchbox cars and any number of collectables. Likewise, a world could exist where no single card sells for more that $2.50, and yet games are plenty and thorough. Certainly games exist where the monetary value of the game pieces themselves hold no bearing upon the game itself, this could become no different.
Without otherwise holy intervention from Our Lord, Richard Garfield, Ph.D., hallowed by thy name, it is up to us, his children, to settle this dispute ourselves. To avoid an otherwise Pyrrhic victory for either party we need to find a way to abstain caustic statements and poor debate. I invite you to join me in this attempt.
Originally Posted by GreatWhale
So anyone who collects is a hoarder. I try to keep 4 of every card available for myself and cards I would use in more than 1 deck in sets of 8. it is called thinking ahead. Lets say that for the next year I know I am not going to play Blue, you are saying I should just sell my underground seas and then when I need them go and struggle to find them again at a reasonable price. i did that 10 years ago it cost me more then I sold at to buy back in, worst mistake of my life in concern to MTG.
The hoarders are those who brag about having 100+ FOW or 20 of each dual etc. Responsible players only keep what they need and for legacy that is 4x of each staple.
Join Team Short bus We have all the special People, We allow helmets at our tables.
Additionally, to those calling into question my loyalty to the game regarding my self-amused conjecture at debilitating bannings, my genuine views on the game are that it is stronger than Wizards, that even in the grim dark future of no more Legacy, people will still get together and play games. That in the end, that is what we all came here for. The strength of the core fundamentals of the game is what kept players interested, not the existence of the DCI sanctioning this game but not that game. My interest to eventually go to France for just one BoM is unaffected by whether it's sanctioned or not.
I think there is a big difference between what a person claims they will do and what they would actually do. Sure I would love to buy these for a cube but that is a far cry from me trying to use one and and even further from actually committing a felony by knowingly purchasing these. That is the big thing, is saving that money worth a possible 10-15 years in prison for my cube I have printed a few proxies but that is a far cry from buying "semi"-real proxies.
I am more worried about those sellers who are outside the reach of US law, or even worse buyers using the bait and switch and claiming to have gotten a counterfeit and just switching cards out. Right now that is the bigger issue, someone ordering legit Jaces etc and then claiming they got a fake and sending a fake back to the seller.
Join Team Short bus We have all the special People, We allow helmets at our tables.
Yeah that's pretty much correct. I think it'd be a little full of myself to say "my official position on the reserved list is..." like that holds any sway, but if it was my call it would go out the window.
First there would be a 2 year grace period. You could mail your original duals/power/whatever into WotC or they would set up a booth at GPs and hand out new foil versions. The new reprint policy would be those cards on the reserved list would never be reprinted as foil and the only way to get them would be to trade in your old shit. After the 2 years are up WotC takes all the cards that aren't too beat that they collected and sticks them in random boosters, when those run out they start printing new versions that have a purple symbol ALA timeshifted cards. From then until the end of time whenever little Timmy opens a booster pack he might have a 1-in-1000 chance or whatever of cracking a ultra-rare throwback card (so these cards are impossible to "hoard" or markup via random distribution). I mean it's a dream obviously, but if we are living in a dream world where counterfeits fix the problems with the reserved list (hint they won't) I get to live in my fantasy as well.
It's not what people are claiming they will do. People on here and many elsewhere are already actively contacting people overseas trying to get these cards. Whether people are using these in the privacy of their home with friends or trying to pass them as real in trades/tournaments is pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things compared to the fact they are giving money to people who fake cards, which causes them to work harder to churn out more and better fake cards.
People scamming on Ebay has always been a thing. You can literally open a package take the cards out and say the package was empty and Ebay will likely give you your money back. Luckily most people on Ebay are honest or they are just scared someone will drive to their house and rough them up if they scam since the MTG scene is pretty connected. I mean if a Magic player in Florida was to rip me off it's likely I know someone who knows someone who knows him and I'm going to have his address and contact info, so scamming Magic on Ebay is far from the perfect crime.
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
Thx for proving me right.
Dood, I know peeps that hold on their Plateaus since they played Goblins in 2007 just for the same reasoning I mentioned and you confirmed. Keeping 4 of every playable card IS hoarding. Keeping 8 of the same chase cards just because of being lazy to move cards from one deck to another IS hoarding.
www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!
Join us at Facebook!
I just called WotC. The customer support office people did not know about this problem, but I am sure someone in WotC does. I encourage people to call 1 (800) 324-6496 (Consumer) Wotc to voice their displeasure. The earlier they are able to handle this, the better.
I told them that they need to take this seriously. They need teams of people policing ebay for example. ie they need to a better job protecting their brand.
It's not just up to the player base. You need lawyers and police enforcement to fix this problem. Also, I encouraged them to put something on their website advertising what they are going to do about this problem. Wotc has NOT POLICED EBAY. For many years now, I constantly see copyright infringement,when buying cards online. Even if the seller advertises it as a proxy, it is still copyright infringement. I report this item immediately to ebay. I encourage others to do the same.
just a prediction, but altered art cards are about to be banned in tournament play.
These Chinese counterfeiters need to be put in prison.
My 2 cents, for whatever its worth...
I dislike how speculators and other associated people are driving up the cost by hoardings tens of copies of stuff ranging from Genesis Wave to Wastelands.
However I do not consider holding onto a playset or two of staples for personal use to be hoarding. I somewhat regularly(every few months I suppose) switch decks in Legacy to stay competitive, so its in my best interests to have a playset of most duals at hand. Before I decided to get into buying Legacy staples for myself, I usually borrowed them from friends. However my life got more busy, so switching decks and then trying to find someone to borrow cards would not suffice.
I also make a good effort to try to lend out decks for Legacy and Modern events since I don't want my Remands or Fetchlands sitting in my room collecting dust.
I strongly disagree. To me, hoarding is when you see a guy with 30+ Force of Wills for no other reason than to show them off in his binder, not the guy that owns 4 Force of Wills that he uses in his High Tide deck.
You haven't told us whether your term 'hoarder' is a derogatory term in your eyes. So I'm supposed to sell my beta Savannahs when I'm not using them for your benefit (actually for the local dealers benefit more likely)? Then what? Take it in the ass buying them back at double what I sold them for even if the price doesn't move? GFYS.
I don't see much value in establishing a threshold for hoarding but it is not having a playset of legacy staples.
It doesn't require a Genius to figure out that there are many more Legacy players worldwide than full Sets of duals. It's impossible that everyone gets their full set without creating a price Helix and increasing prices over time.
Blame everybody else is too easy.
www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!
Join us at Facebook!
Hording isn't about quantity, it's about use, or lack of. If you have 4x of every dual and fetch, and are bringing a different build to every tournament and lending out cards you aren't using to friends and teammates to shore up their decks, then that's all fine. I know a few guys like that, their collections are like miniature store inventories, but they're constantly letting people use their stuff for tournaments. If it's being made use of, regardless of quantity, then it isn't really hording.
I can get behind that for reasoning, but aside from very few exception, this is more a dream than Reality.
www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!
Join us at Facebook!
This is an idea I can honestly get behind, because it moves towards still having the pimpness, whilst also allowing for a gradual uptick in Legacy. Those who have hoarded will still have the incredible value of having the 'original', whilst those who want to play can either:
1) Trade for the foil versions, which would still be somewhat expensive; or
2) Trade for the 'legendary' version, which would be much more common.
Why do the numbers have to equal out? What's a legacy player without legacy cards? Nobody has to play DCI events if you have an insatiable need to cast Force of Will or play an Underground Sea just print some out and play with your similarly fiending buddies. Nothing will ever stop you from doing that.
This may be the dumbest argument I've ever heard. Having 4x every Legacy staple does not make you part of the problem. It's the people sitting on a bunch of cards they never intend to use again treating them like they are Microsoft stocks or the people who buy 50x of the same card and drive up the price $5 just to make a $3 profit on each card after selling fees and shipping. I don't think I've been to an SCG in the past 3 years where I drove with someone and didn't loan out at least 10 cards and most people are the same. Back in the day that's what people did to get their friends into Legacy (before it was popular). Selling out and buying in is an idiot's game and I seriously doubt you actually do that unless you financially need to sell cards to buy new ones Lemnear.
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
Just stop. This kind of attitude is disgusting.
I've done business with the company producing the forgeries. Not too long ago I sourced a container load of playing cards (that's 468,000 54-card decks) for a company wanting promotional materials. Custom printed CMYK backs and faces in custom printed tuck boxes cello-wrapped for $0.094/deck delivered to the nearest port. Yes, the decimal point is in the right place. That's razor thin margins that could split a hair. They work long hours, most live in dormitories, and many of them are only children who have rapidly aging parents they will have to care for because there's no social security, medicare, or other such equivalents in China. You try to tell poor, under educated migrant workers they can't make a little extra money putting ink to cardboard and selling it to foreigners for over 100 times what they can normally sell their products for at the same cost to themselves.
It doesn't make what they're doing right. But valuing colorful paper over human lives is reprehensible and certainly a greater crime.
It's very unlikely the people working at this printing company have any real concept of what they are doing. It's the people placing these orders who should be punished.
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
Exactly.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
