I look forward to it. I double-sleeve all of my cards so I'm not sure how the smoothness would be able to be detected. Perhaps the thinness would raise a red flag, but it would have to be substantially different to be able to detected.Originally Posted by sdematt
People all over the world live in different economic situations. Even if you're from a slum or in a warzone, that doesn't mean that it's suddenly morally right to steal or kill or rape. At least some of the people in this counterfeiting operation are aware of what they are doing. See prateta's post on Page 14 where he cites a conversation with an employee.
I do not think it is "Nothing to worry about" so much as it is "This time, the Status Quo is intact".
Also thickness would be hard to notice if you both Double Sleeve your card and play cards that the opponent is unlikely to need to touch. I see no reason you need to pick up my Goyf. I play it, you know what it does, lets beat face.
@ ESG, Not sure what Rape has to do with this at all.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
What does this thread have anything to do with standard of living in China? The thread is about counterfeiting, get over the China part.
Fact: There're Many Many countries in the world, counterfeiting U.S. Dollar bills, 24 hours a day everyday.
Here's another fact, you don't hear those counterfeiting currency to be on the news, cause most fake Bills don't pass currency tests. Why is this a big deal all the sudden? Because WotC has given the license to print money for more than 13+ years and finally the counterfeiting technology of Magic card has reached to the official printing technology. WotC has itself to blame, for not advancing its counterfeit measures.
The market fluctuation on pricing is primary the secondary market, which WotC has no control over. Don't ask WotC for unreasonable things.
@Dice_Box: Triplesunflower is defending the actions of the counterfeiters by claiming that their actions are borne out of poor living conditions. I'm saying that this doesn't change whether something is morally right or wrong, whether that extends to theft or murder or rape, or any other heinous action a person could do. You don't get a free pass to steal cars or counterfeit money if you're poor, so let's put that notion to rest right now.
I guess I was naive, but I felt that my fellow Legacy players would recognize counterfeiting as a pernicious thing, just as bag-snatching would be, and yet people are making all kinds of excuses and rationalizations. It's illegal, it's wrong, and it's harmful to everyone.
They can reprint stuff in adequate quantities to keep the price spiral in check, but they chose not to. We wouldn't have 150$ Goyfs now if Wizards hadn't put Goyf at Mythic Rarity in a set with an extremely limited print run despite demand.
Wizards is the main reason why the secondary market went so much out of control.
Whether or not it's better to follow Konami's strategy for Yu-Gi-Oh! to reprint the shit out of everything that is worth money to destroy any secondary market value is debatable, but it keeps the game accessible. It's a hard fact that they sell significantly more cards than Wizards (they hold the Guiness world record) and most likely have a higher revenue from Yu-Gi-Oh! as well.
Yu-Gi-Oh is basically only Legacy and Vintage, there is no equivilent of Standard so every card that has ever been printed is still legal in every format unless it is banned. There are regularly ultra-rare cards that are worth several hundreds of dollars for a season or three and good to the point where you basically need them to play at a top tier level only to be reprinted as a common in a new set and be worth pennies (of course at this point if you are a serious player you might have had to invest to stay competitive). Yu-Gi-Oh also has super exclusive cards that you could only obtain by say, going to a mall opening in downtown Tokyo and seeing a specific movie on a given weekend or stupid shit like that and sometimes those cards are apparently OP and super rare so they are worth stupid loot (until they get reprinted 2 years later as a common of course.) Yu-Gi-Oh is the pinnacle of screw the people who have any money cards you guys should check it out lol. At least that's my understanding of it I've never played the game but I know many people who have and they all complain about how stupid the reprint system is.
What Magic needs is a slow release valve. You may or may not like the collectible nature of the game but it ensures the dealers make money which is why Magic is so well supported compared to every other card game ever put together. That said it's unwise from WotC's standpoint to make a habit of crashing the value of power cards. The better approach is to have a yearly product similar to Modern Masters. Sure the first go round some prices went down, a very few went up, and many more were stabilized. Say the average reprint went down 10% in price but is still too high, if you run that back next year it might go down another 6%, and the next year it might go down another 5% then be in a more fair range and from that point you can just maybe skip a year and throw it in 2 years down the road to keep the price somewhat stable. I think WotC is starting to realize that they can't have Modern be full of hundred dollar bills and they are experimenting with various ways to control prices without taking the piss out of everyone's collection or more importantly dealer's stock. I think MM and the new Modern event deck speak to that but we'll see what happens. Unfortunately there is no easy answer for Legacy they really painted themselves into a corner with the reprint policy then went back a few years ago and laid down a second coat...
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
It's illegal in United States, is it illegal in every other countries in the world?
It's wrong by your morale judgement, and that's subjective. The only wrong is that the counterfeiter are making profit without the artist's permission. The artist already got his or her cut from WotC.
How is it Harmful to Everyone? If there's a demand, counterfeiting is simply increasing the supply. For people would could not jump the price hurdle, increasing supply actually provide lower barrier to entry, more accessible to all the players barred from Legacy. I don't know about you, I want more people to get into Legacy, through legitimate cards or counterfeit cards, I don't care.
The only way you can say that counterfeiting is absolutely "harmful" is if you make the argument that it hurts tournament support for the Legacy scene by directly hitting big traders like StarCityGames which host tournaments, and by directly hitting the manufacturer of the cards that makes new sets (Wizards).
If Legacy players were to take matters into their own hands and host tournaments independently of big players like StarCityGames, then really, flooding the market with cheap staples will do nothing harmful to the individual players themselves. It will only lower the barrier of entry and introduce more players to the game.
Counterfeits are a big threat to companies like StarCityGames and Wizards, obviously, and to traders that make their living buying and selling cards. That's about it. The players themselves are only affected by proxy as explained above.
That's a dangerous one, some foreign print runs of cards were thinner and some were smoother. I've actually opened Japanese time spiral packs and I can tell you with certainty that those are thinner than most magic cards.
Similarly, the Japanese worldwake and Japanese new phyrxia packs were A LOT smoother than the English counterparts.
EDIT: This really only applies to foreign cards in my experience, so if you've got noticeably different English cards then it could be a sign of fakes.
No i do not want more people playing Legacy or magic in general if they are using bootleg cards to do it. Counterfeit cards are bad for the game period get it through your fucking skull. Every pro counterfeit argument is basically just an attempt to justify something that is illegal and immoral. Yes the reserve list sucks, speculators suck, prices are to high, guess what none of that makes it okay. If you buy these you are supporting a Chinese crime syndicate but hey you don't care so whatever. Go play Pog's asshole
Where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence.
~ Mohandas Gandhi
Pog's Asshole, sounds like an interesting game.
Oh I kill myself sometimes...
Clearly someone here makes his money buying and selling Magic cards.
You know, some people just enjoy *the game itself*. Those people could care less what counterfeits do to Joe Trader or Big Box Dealer Company's bottom lines. All counterfeits mean, in the end, for the players are two things:
a.) MORE players, MORE games.
and
b.) possibly less tournaments or less well-supported big tournaments (grand prix / SCG support declining)
a. is clearly good. b. is bad, but whether tournaments can be run by the player community that are as good as what SCG and Wizards run or not remains to be seen.
Nope just a regular magic player with beat up revised dual's. If you think that counterfeits are only going to hurt the big boy's and not people that "just enjoy the game it's self" then you have your head up your butt.
Where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence.
~ Mohandas Gandhi
What about Bazaar of Moxen? I don't think it's impossible to do more and regular events as long as
a) people who run the event plan accordingly in advance and
b) have good price support to draw enough people.
While it isn't easy and requires quite a bit of resources, I don't think it's undoable.
Part of the allure of Legacy to a lot of players is the high value prize tournaments. Without expensive staples there is not incentive for me to keep the store credit I obtain at various Legacy $1K's, I would just take cash at a lower percentage if I did not have the chance to pick up a dual land with my prize credit.
And I would also miss the 40 dual land, other dual land sets, Jace TMS, and Tarmogoyf tournaments.
WotC should try to keep their formats within reasonable entry barriers by reprinting $50+ cards, ranging from Dark Confidant all the way to Underground Sea. But they should, as others have already said, not crash the market. It would be great if Tarmogoyfs only costed $50 and Underground Seas only costed $100.
What kind of logic is that? The only thing counterfeits hurt is every business that makes, sells, or supports MTG... Yeah I mean if yanking the rug out from under the people who are hosting all the events that make it worth owning cards doesn't hurt players down the line...
You do realize there's nothing to stop you now from hosting your own events. You could even allow proxies which would eliminate the need for counterfeits. In fact there's absolutely nothing to stop you from doing this RIGHT NOW. If you don't like that sanctioned events require real cards and your solution is to saturate the market with fakes and ruin the established tournament scene so you can play with pretty looking proxies wouldn't the better solution be just to host you own tournaments, allow proxies, and NOT RUIN the extremely well run and supported nationwide Legacy scene that SCG provides as well as countless dealers and LGS nationwide who provide places to play?
What the hell? Really I mean I can't even begin to address this. Seriously dude what's your deal are you a teenager? What do you do for a living? I can't even begin to imagine an adult would write this.
This thread in a nutshell.
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
So Maro acknowledged the issue today, even while just giving a run-of-the-mill answer:
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post...-give-us#notes
About the SCG article: What exactly does this article try to accomplish? Fear mongering?
Hilarious side note: If you don't want people to buy fakes, then DON'T POST PICTURES WITH THE UNCENSORED LINK IN THE ARTICLE!
It's like a guide for the masses to buy fakes. Good fucking job, dude!
Illegal and Immoral by whose standard? Your parent's standard? Law by in your town?
People who care about arbitrary values of a piece of paper or commodity are called traders, collectors. We don't describe these people as Players. Players like to design decks, play Magic cards in competition, argue about deck match-ups in theory. Players don't like to spend time on card prices. You need cards for a deck, you acquire them. It's people like you, crying foul and all in pretense, when all you care about is making profit off trading commodity in the secondary market. What do you know about playing this game?
I should state that I'm against piracy, and do not support counterfeits.So Maro acknowledged the issue today, even while just giving a run-of-the-mill answer:
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post...-give-us#notes
About the SCG article: What exactly does this article try to accomplish? Fear mongering?
Hilarious side note: If you don't want people to buy fakes, then DON'T POST PICTURES WITH THE UNCENSORED LINK IN THE ARTICLE!
It's like a guide for the masses to buy fakes. Good fucking job, dude!
However, the SCG article has a serious conflict of interest; advice on what to do with MTG cards from an MTG dealer. I would be much more interested in what WotC has to say on the matter. An article from SCG that states, don't sell your cards and please buy our cards I think leaves a lot to be desired.
Why would SCG not want you to sell cards? They are getting an influx of sales requests, its a ton of work to now verify the authenticity of numerous cards, or they fear a mass exodus from the game.
If Wizards wants to meet this problem head on, they need to issue a statement detailing their game plan. Or their needs to be a collation of MTG dealers that adhere to some sort of code of conduct for buying and selling. One dealer telling me to keep buying from said dealer is not all that helpful.
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