Chinese fakes

[dontbiteitholmes]

Illegal and Immoral by whose standard? Your parent's standard? Law by in your town?

People who care about arbitrary values of a piece of paper or commodity are called traders, collectors. We don't describe these people as Players. Players like to design decks, play Magic cards in competition, argue about deck match-ups in theory. Players don't like to spend time on card prices. You need cards for a deck, you acquire them. It's people like you, crying foul and all in pretense, when all you care about is making profit off trading commodity in the secondary market. What do you know about playing this game?

Counterfeiting is illegal everywhere that matters. It's illegal in China as well, occasionally there are raids to break up counterfeiting rings. It's illegal by every standard that could possibly matter for the sake of this discussion, yes including the law in your town. By knowingly ordering fake cards you would be breaking US laws (or wherever you live).

Pretty much everyone would agree that counterfeiting is wrong. I mean outside of the people here trying to justify it I don't think I've ever heard someone make a pro-counterfeit argument.

What are you even doing? I mean you are going so far around your ass with this logic I don't even see where you are coming from. No one here is really making money off MTG we don't want this to get out of hand because it will hurt the people who host events and then there will be less events. I'm sorry you don't like paying for cards, I don't like paying for anything, but people don't hold events and host FNMs out of the goodness of their hearts. Read this article it will lay out the general reasons people disagree with counterfeiting. http://www.starcitygames.com/article...eit-Cards.html

[prateta]

More info

from the chinese guy who is sending me the free samples. They should arrive this week, will post a short review when I get my hands on them.

I talked to the man today and tried to get some more information from him. This is what I've got. Wanna see my last post with information regarding the alleged police raid and lost in spam? Click here.

New info:

[twndomn]

What are you even doing? I mean you are going so far around your ass with this logic I don't even see where you are coming from. No one here is really making money off MTG we don't want this to get out of hand because it will hurt the people who host events and then there will be less events. I'm sorry you don't like paying for cards, I don't like paying for anything, but people don't hold events and host FNMs out of the goodness of their hearts. Read this article it will lay out the general reasons people disagree with counterfeiting. http://www.starcitygames.com/article...eit-Cards.html

You are now just flat out Lying. If no one here is making money off MTG, then there is no business or secondary market, and definitely no motivation to counterfeit Magic cards. There is something called Supply and Demand, there's also something called Economics. Your argument of "hurting" the people simply ignore the common sense of Economics.

I would argue that indistinguishable counterfeit Magic cards simply increase the supply of Magic cards, actually Benefit people who previously would not be able to play Legacy due to entry to barrier and inaccessible cards. Therefore, it's good for the players, bad for traders and collectors.

Your argument has no merit for hosting less events. I predict there would be More events, because there are More Legacy players, using legitimate or illegitimate cards. People counterfeit currency or Magic cards ALL THE TIME. That's not my concern, my concern is to get more people to play Legacy.

[JBlaze]

Illegal and Immoral by whose standard? Your parent's standard? Law by in your town?

People who care about arbitrary values of a piece of paper or commodity are called traders, collectors. We don't describe these people as Players. Players like to design decks, play Magic cards in competition, argue about deck match-ups in theory. Players don't like to spend time on card prices. You need cards for a deck, you acquire them. It's people like you, crying foul and all in pretense, when all you care about is making profit off trading commodity in the secondary market. What do you know about playing this game?

umm... illegal by international and United states Trademark and intellectual property law your just trolling

Here is a secret. Most players are also collectors. I don't have a lot of money but instead of all hailing our new Chinese overlords I participate in magic finance, not to get rich just to make Magic pay for Magic. I actually find the selling part to be tedious but if you buy/sell/trade smart you can offset some or all of the cost

I really want to stand up on the table during a game and take a giant dump Chaos Orb style all over your cards just to see how much you really care about value. Or how bout this, I have a bunch of counterfeit money that I collected working graveyard shift in a ghetto ass gas station most of last year. If you don't care about the value of little pieces of paper trade me some real money for them bro. You don't know me so don't try to paint me out to be something I'm not just so you can continue to justify illegal activity. Its called a strawman argument and it ain't gonna fly brother.

[dontbiteitholmes]

You are now just flat out Lying. If no one here is making money off MTG, then there is no business or secondary market, and definitely no motivation to counterfeit Magic cards. There is something called Supply and Demand, there's also something called Economics. Your argument of "hurting" the people simply ignore the common sense of Economics.

I would argue that indistinguishable counterfeit Magic cards simply increase the supply of Magic cards, actually Benefit people who previously would not be able to play Legacy due to entry to barrier and inaccessible cards. Therefore, it's good for the players, bad for traders and collectors.

Your argument has no merit for hosting less events. I predict there would be More events, because there are More Legacy players, using legitimate or illegitimate cards. People counterfeit currency or Magic cards ALL THE TIME. That's not my concern, my concern is to get more people to play Legacy.

Seriously guys, I'm not even going to respond to this one, just read my previous posts and know if you support counterfeits this guy is on your side.

[JBlaze]

You are now just flat out Lying. If no one here is making money off MTG, then there is no business or secondary market, and definitely no motivation to counterfeit Magic cards. There is something called Supply and Demand, there's also something called Economics. Your argument of "hurting" the people simply ignore the common sense of Economics.

I would argue that indistinguishable counterfeit Magic cards simply increase the supply of Magic cards, actually Benefit people who previously would not be able to play Legacy due to entry to barrier and inaccessible cards. Therefore, it's good for the players, bad for traders and collectors.

Your argument has no merit for hosting less events. I predict there would be More events, because there are More Legacy players, using legitimate or illegitimate cards. People counterfeit currency or Magic cards ALL THE TIME. That's not my concern, my concern is to get more people to play Legacy.

People murder rape and steal ALL THE TIME does not make it right. but I guess that's not your concern, your concern is to get cheap goods and to hell with anything that stands in your way.

[Tormod]

First True-Name Nemesis, now this!

What's the world come to?

[Lord Seth]

Pretty much everyone would agree that counterfeiting is wrong. I mean outside of the people here trying to justify it I don't think I've ever heard someone make a pro-counterfeit argument.

Here or in general?

Because we have to stop and ask ourselves why counterfeiting commercial items is illegal. Note my usage of commercial items; I'm not talking about stuff made by the government like money (that's a different matter), I'm talking about stuff like counterfeiting Magic cards.

The reason it's against the law to counterfeit Magic cards is copyright laws. Wizards of the Coast owns the copyright on the cards, so it's copyright infringement to make a copy of them. Now, there are a cases where copyright infringement is legal thanks to "fair use" (for example, technically just posting a picture of a card is copyright infringement, but Wizards of the Coast sure as heck doesn't care and even if they did they'd get laughed out of court, so it's not illegal copyright infringement), but that's another matter entirely. Counterfeiting does not fall under fair use.

The question then becomes, why does copyright exist and does that reason hold place here? The reason copyright exists is presumably that if someone makes something, they should be able to be the one to make money off of it. If you wrote a book that's popular, you should be the one making money from it, rather than someone else just grabbing it and selling their own copies of it. It lets you put your work out to the public while being secure that someone else can't legally take it without your permission.

Here's where things get sticky. The idea is to make it so that the copyright holder, who actually made the thing, is the one allowed to profit off of it. But in this case, Wizards of the Coast is actively refusing to do so with the Reserved List. Might as well continue with my book publisher: It's like after making a book with a limited run, a lot of people want to buy more copies, but the publisher refuses to do so (or the author somehow refuses to let the publisher do so). In this case, the copyright is not really serving the purpose it was intended for, namely letting the copyright holder to be the one who gets to profit from it. After all, they're not making any profit on it because they refuse to make more copies. This to a certain extent also applies to non-Reserved List cards that they do not reprint.

It's kind of like the situation you might find yourself in if you really want to watch a TV show that's off the air, but the copyright holder has not released it on DVD or put it on any streaming service, or games that are now out of print. Certainly it's copyright infringement to download a copy online, and it's illegal... but at the same time, they're not making any money off of it and are refusing to actually use their copyright. When one considers the reason for copyright in the first place, is making copies (e.g. putting episodes online for download) really against the spirit of the law?

In fact, what is striking about the particular case of Magic is that despite their refusal to sell more copies of certain cards, Wizards of the Coast still requires you to obtain them for sanctioned tournaments.

When we consider the reason why copyright is supposed to exist in the first place, it seems quite arguable that due to Wizards of the Coast's actions, copyright is not actually protecting what it is supposed to protect and thus perhaps violating it in that case should not be illegal. The idea of a "use it or lose it" clause for copyright is interesting, though it would be difficult to implement and would almost certainly never actually be passed as law.

[luckme10]

Maro says:

creatingpseudonyms asked: Your thoughts on the counterfeit ring in China? Give us some assurance to calm us down : )

We are very much aware of the issue and are working towards a swift resolution to it. We have a lot of tools at our disposal to help resolve this problem and I can assure you those resources are being used.
January 13, 2014
30 notes



Hear that everyone WotC has top men working on it right now!
Who?
Top men!

[dontbiteitholmes]

TL;DR

I scanned that and decided I'm not gonna read a whole bunch of copyright theory you crafted out of your ass. I'm glad you think copyright laws should be rewritten based on your primetime TV courtroom drama understanding of the law, but you waxing philosophic on what copyright means to you personally actually doesn't mean anything.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I would argue that indistinguishable counterfeit Magic cards simply increase the supply of Magic cards, actually Benefit people who previously would not be able to play Legacy due to entry to barrier and inaccessible cards.

...an it hurts the people who already got the cards. You know - me, you, etc.

[Octopusman]

I do not think it is "Nothing to worry about" so much as it is "This time, the Status Quo is intact".

Also thickness would be hard to notice if you both Double Sleeve your card and play cards that the opponent is unlikely to need to touch. I see no reason you need to pick up my Goyf. I play it, you know what it does, lets beat face.

@ ESG, Not sure what Rape has to do with this at all.

I have opponents shuffle my decks constantly when in a tournament. I'm not sure about you guys but during competitive play this is pretty common/expected.

[Dice_Box]

Yes, but one card in 60 is hard to pick out. Like, borderline impossible.

[Lord Seth]

I scanned that and decided I'm not gonna read a whole bunch of copyright theory you crafted out of your ass.

Then why bother characterizing it if you didn't even read the thing?

I'm glad you think copyright laws should be rewritten

I'm glad you didn't actually read my post and thus came to that faulty conclusion.

based on your primetime TV courtroom drama understanding of the law,

In what way do I have "primetime TV courtroom drama understanding of the law"? You can't just claim something like that without at least giving a real explanation. I've read a decent amount about copyright law, so if my understanding is somehow faulty, I would actually like to be informed of how. Is your issue that I didn't bring up the related non-copyright issues, e.g. trademarks?

but you waxing philosophic on what copyright means to you personally actually doesn't mean anything.

And neither does your post because you just admitted you didn't read it. Maybe if you actually read it rather than "scanned" it you wouldn't be arguing against a strawman.

[CorwinB]

What about Bazaar of Moxen? I don't think it's impossible to do more and regular events as long as

a) people who run the event plan accordingly in advance and
b) have good price support to draw enough people.

While it isn't easy and requires quite a bit of resources, I don't think it's undoable.

Bazar of Moxen is actually organized by one of the largest French retailers, Magic Bazar. It's definitely not a players-run event.

[JBlaze]

@Lord Seth

Just because Wizards has chosen to uphold the reserve list doesn't mean that they are not using their copyright. Not really sure what your point is but your post was long winded and much ado about nothing.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Yes, but one card in 60 is hard to pick out. Like, borderline impossible.

I can't speak for all events, but the judges at SCG possibly during midround deck check and 100% for sure during pre-top8 inspection would notice if any of your cards were different. I've had them notice a very small defect in 4 of my 60 sleeves during like round 5 of an event that I hadn't noticed. I've also watched them several times perform the pre-top8 deck check. Let's just say it's very thorough. If you plan on taking fake cards to an SCG good luck.

[Stan]

If this fake cards crisis causes WotC to cut costs, downsize, and fire that useless waste of carbon Mark Rosewater, this will have been worth all the other fallout it caused.

So Maro acknowledged the issue today, even while just giving a run-of-the-mill answer:

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post...-give-us#notes

About the SCG article: What exactly does this article try to accomplish? Fear mongering?

Hilarious side note: If you don't want people to buy fakes, then DON'T POST PICTURES WITH THE UNCENSORED LINK IN THE ARTICLE!

It's like a guide for the masses to buy fakes. Good fucking job, dude!

[Lord Seth]

@Lord Seth

Just because Wizards has chosen to uphold the reserve list doesn't mean that they are not using their copyright.

It kind of does. After all, if you're not making those cards, then you're not actually using their copyrights on those cards. Obviously they're still using their copyrights they have on the game in general and any new cards or reprints, but on those they aren't, unless you count their usage online (e.g. Magic Online, Gatherer images, etc.)

Not really sure what your point is but your post was long winded and much ado about nothing.

Enh, this is more fair. I was mostly just trying to ponder a bit about a possible argument, and I guess I kinda lost whatever point I had by the end.

[Dan Turner]

I am very much against counterfeits. If I need a proxy I have a color laser printer, I own most of the staples but I would love a large enough print run of legit catds to drop the price back to 05-06 levels even most duals were right in the sweet spot around 25 and only a few nitch cards were $100 range

Sent from 15 min in the future via Tapatalk Timewarp.