I've been thinking about the threat base, and I wonder if 14 creatures might be too much. At the same time, I want to up the number of instants/sorceries for Delver.
- Team America plays 14 creatures, 20 lands, and 24 instants / sorceries (considering the flex slots are Liliana and Sylvan Library)
- RUG plays 12 creatures, 18 lands, and 30 instants / sorceries
- UWR plays 10 creatures, 20 lands, and 28 instants / sorceries
- bUrg plays 12-13 creatures, 18 lands, and 29-30 instants/sorceries
In the bUrg thread, they have been considering that Sylvan Library can replace a creature, so they sometimes play 11 creatures and 1 Sylvan Library, for a total of 12 "threats". If we assimilate Sylvan Library as a threat, TA plays 15 threats!
One of the reasons we might want to play more threats, is that RUG plays Mongoose, UWR plays TNN, and bUrg plays Mongoose / TNN. Since we don't play Mongoose / TNN in TA, we might want to "overload" our opponent's removal.
Going forward, I want to try replacing a Tarmogoyf with a Golgari Charm. Akatsuki was already considering Golgari Charm's inclusion in the maindeck, since it is useful in so many matchups. Worst comes to worst, you can use it to save a threat from removal, using the regeneration mode. So it's still a "virtual" threat.
Something like:
// Creature [13]
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
// Instant [17]
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
// Sorcery [8]
4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
// Planeswalker [1]
1 Liliana of the Veil
// Enchantment [1]
1 Sylvan Library
// Land [20]
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
I've also been thinking about incorporating 3-4 Stifle in the maindeck, going down to 12 creatures, 19 lands, and removing an Hymn or a flex slot. But that's a big change, and I'll post about this after more testing.
That's a reasonable interpretation for why BUG might be more willing to play more threats than the other decks, but I don't think it's the most descriptive. BUG plays much more like a grindy, resource-denial deck than the other Delver decks. The other decks are focused on landing a threat and stopping or blanking all attempts to deal with it. Compared to the other lists, the stock BUG Delver list plays very few counterspells, mostly replaced by discard. You drop efficient threats and force them to both be proactive and reactive while you're messing with their hand and mana.Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt
So that begs the question, why should this grindy, midrange strategy be the norm for TA? I think it really has to do with the lack of Lightning Bolt. The only incentive for going with Decay and discard over Bolt and Stifle is raw power and card advantage. Unlike RUG, TA can play head-to-head against a normal deck's midrange plan. Stifle incentivizes you to try to end the game quickly before they can draw out of manascrew, something Bolt excels at.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
I can fully get behind Disfigure. It just got 100x as good, due to UWR being the top delver deck in the format, imo, as you have a lot of outs to sfm and delver, which means your lillys get better vs their tnn.
I don't think the Stifle build is worth it. Played it for a while, and the deck plays much more of a tappout game plan. You almost always have better things to do than hold up Stifle. It sometimes would win games for free, but often just rotted in my hand whilst I did better things and then pitched to Force.
The conspiracy goes deeper than you might think.Can I pay you for not posting in this thread?
I agree with YamiJoey. Deathrite Shaman's inclusion in the deck mean you have to have a pretty good reason you are not using your mana each turn, and I don't think holding up stifle is one of them in many cases. I think in terms of Delver the only decks that should be playing stifle is thresh variants (RUG and bUrg). Our color combination gives us access to Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay, and UWR has Swords and Stoneforge. My point is since RUG Delver doesn't have access to the powerful tools BUG and UWR have they have to lean on the stifle-wasteland package because they have a hard time letting their opponent play magic or coming back from behind. They often need to just get ahead and stay ahead. BUG and UWR have a little bit more staying power and can still come back if they a get a little behind.
In regards to Legacy:
This is why I try and highlight signorini's constant inclusion of at least one sylvan library in his 75 to other TA players. It's just wayyy too good and actually will outrun UWR hard (especially post board) if it sticks. At times I've played 2 maindeck and felt like it was completely correct. I'm experimenting now with my two flex slots being one sylvan, one liliana over disfigure main and a second sylvan in the side. Disfigure seems like a fine thing to just sb into given that I've noticed my meta kinda shift towards TNN and combo (which actually looks pretty good right given the slower/midrangy TNN decks ... I've resleeved imperial painter because it's actually pretty damn good vs both esper and patriot).
A topic I want to throw out there: Are we all still loving like THREE eff'ing golgari charms sb? I think the card is kinda overrated and nearly useless in a lot of fair matchups. I've personally moved to one locally and two in scgs ... and for the worst reason ... not cause I think it's needed, just cause every other TA list seems to love it so much. Maybe I've just undervalued mode 3? Are you guys using that a lot? I love playing this deck cause you're just tapping out nearly every turn and that always equates to ruining your opponents dreams ... saving mana for the regen always seems so meh to me. Also, probably 1 in three decks I play among the Los Angeles legacy meta is a graveyard deck (dredge is so hot right now ... If I didn't hate playing it, I'd be all over it) so I actually have started playing 2 cages and a tormod's crypt in favor of the extra charms.
Decks
-------
paper:
Death and Taxes
online:
grixis delver / 4c control
Hey man, do you. If your meta doesn't call for 3 Charms, don't play them. But...if your meta is as you describe, I would much rather be playing a deck with 4 Meddling Mage, 2 Rest in Peace.
Cutting Sylvan from my list hurt, not going to lie. I just was making a meta call that there sould be lots of Deathrite and UWR delver decks, where Disfigure is usually just better.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
Does anyone have any ideas of where to go for GP Paris? The Miracle Control decks in EU seem to be playing Snaps, and a few are cutting Terminus for more Entreats. Aside from that I expect a lot of RUG Delver and Shardless BUG, then the usual slew of ANT/Dredge and stuff that people take to large Legacy events. I'm thinking of having a more solid anti-Dredge plan out of the board. Spell Pierce is okay for countering Dread Returns, and DRS goes some of the way, but on the draw I need DRS, Spell Pierce, and 2 lands - one of which is a Fetch - and a T2 protection plan. Short of that I'm after Grafdigger's Cage, and then I have nothing. I don'y feel like Mulling to one of my 4-ofs. I've not tested tje MU, I know literally 0 people who play it here in England, so U-Land Go might be enough to make them not go off, and I can Brainstorm and Ponder my way through the following turns, but I'm basically as scared of Dredge as I have always been, except when I play RipHelm.
Another quick question; in the meta I'm expecting (or if you thonk I'm just wrong) would UW RiP Miracles be a better choice of deck? I'm liking it's matchups, but I don't feel strong with the deck. It feels like I have to be a lot better than I am at Magic to win with it, whereas with BUG Delver I can fall back on making guys and turning them sideways to help me through some of the games that I should be losing.
The conspiracy goes deeper than you might think.Can I pay you for not posting in this thread?
On the topic of Dredge I would consider adding 1 or 2 more pieces of grave hate in your board depending on how much dredge you are expecting. The options should probably be between another Grafdigger's Cage, Tormod's Crypt, or Nihil Spellbomb (if you like the cantrip and don't care that it isn't free like Tormod's Crypt). I don't like Surgical Extraction if your considering more grave hate because of the dredge match-up.
As for whether you should play UW Miracles or not, I do not think you should even if you think it's well positioned. My main reason is that confidence in your ability to pilot a deck is crucial for winning in Legacy, and I would not want to play miracles at a big tournament unless I was sure I am exceptionally good with it.
In regards to Legacy:
4-0'ed the Open Trial today so I'm playing the open for $10 tomorrow. Wish me luck. Will report back on how I do. Planning on playing stocklist with Liliana and a disfigure in the flex slots. Here's my sb:
SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
In regards to Legacy:
Congrats, if you want more grave hate I think the best card is probably Grafdigger's Cage since it improves your Elves matchup as well.
Never thought to give a chance to spell snare over spell pierce to break tempo and D&T MU?
Anyways good luck, may your Ponders never shuffle and your Delvers always flip!
- L
Eh, the spell pierces are mostly there for combo and control match ups. I like it better since it has more targets. Also, I don't usually play too many counters postboard in Tempo and D&T match-ups. Usually I board into more removal and cards good in grindy fair matchups.
In regards to Legacy:
After having negative percentages against Esper Deathblade both in a few tournaments and testing, I have decided to try a setup of 3 Decay, 2 Disfigure, 2 Sylvan Library, 3 Hymn. With 2 Krosan Grips in the sideboard for Batterskull especially. Sylvans seem like the best card in the matchup - they can't remove it, and if we contain their first threat, it should take over the game.
I did a breakdown of how I want to board against important decks, and during this I changed the list so that it all fit as best as possible (cutting Leylines that I mentioned a few pages back for instance).
How do you fare against Esper Deathblade and what do you think about my plan against it?
You can see the decklist and board plans here (all ideas and criticism are most welcome):
BUG Delver
4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 Tombstalker
3 Hymn
4 Daze
4 FoW
3 Decay
2 Disfigure
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sylvan Library
20 land, 2 Trop, 2 Bayou, 3 Sea, 9 fetch, 4 waste.
SB:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Krosan Grip
1 Winter Orb
1 Notion Thief
Matchups (first I write cards going in, and after the dash the cards going out, if there is no number assigned, then it's just 1 card):
Esper Deathblade: Notion Thief, 2 Grip – Goyf, Daze, FoW ?
Mirror: 1 Sower, 1 Notion Thief – 1 Daze, 1 FoW ?
Storm: 2 Pierce, 2 Fluster, 2 Cage, Notion Thief, 1 Golgari Charm – 3 Decay, 2 Disfigure, 2 Tombstalker, Wasteland.
Sneak&Show/OmniTell: 2 Pierce, 2 Fluster, 2 Sower, 2 Grip, Orb, Thief – 3 Decay, 2 Disfigure, 2 Tombstalker, 2 Wasteland, Goyf.
Elves: 2 Golgari Charm, 2 Cage, Thief, 2 Flusterstorm, Plague – 4 Daze, 3 Decay, Hymn.
Jund: OTP: no board. OTD: 2 Pierce – 2 Daze.
Canadian: no boarding
D&T: 2 Grip, 2 Golgari Charm, Plague – OTP: 4 FoW, 1 Daze. OTD: 3 Hymn, 1 Daze, 1 FoW.
UW Miracles: Orb, Notion Thief, 2 Grip, 2 Pierce – 1 Decay, 2 Disfigure, 1 Daze, 2 Tombstalker.
More Charms/Decay if they are dedicated Rest n Peace.
Orb and Sower nr 2 don't seem to get much time off the bench. They could be other bullets or Envelop + third Disfigure.
If you want more game against Deathblade or other blade decks, you don't need to change too much of the integrity of the deck. All you need to do is take out hymn for thoughtseize
Unadvisable.
This change half-asses the midrange plan in many postboard matches. You give up an entire strategic approach.
If you want to go the tnn way your mana cannot sustain hymn reliably and you need to make the switch from that reason alone. You also lock yourself into a deck not as able to grind this way.
Playing a few in the sb alongside hymns is perfectly acceptable however.
Personally I'm fine playing against esperblade decks. I feel like uwr is the closest mu from our "delver relatives"
and even there at least I don't have to scoop to T1/2 moons with counter backups..
@KobeBryan: I agree that Thoughtseize is better than Hymn if Batterskull is in the hand at the right moment and if they don't have Brainstorm in response. However, Grip is an unconditional answer, also to topdecked equipment. I doubt that simply playing Thoughtseize over Hymn can swing the matchup from a negative to a plus.
I didn't say it would become positive but it certainly helps against blade variants.
I'm with the hymn plan right now because of the diverse meta. But if it ever becomes overloaded with sfm I would definitely run thoughtseize over hymn. Even now there are times I wish I didn't have so many two two casting cost spells because I can only do one action on turn 2
Deviant, are you talking about Imperial Painter or Sneak and Show?
Scrubbed out today unfortunately going 2-3 drop. Was a combination of bad luck and misplays as it usually goes, with more emphasis on the former. I think I'll continue playing this deck primarily but also try out other decks to get to know the format better. If I took anything valuable away from today it's that I still have a lot to learn about legacy.
One thing I want ask other players. How do you guys approach the Sneak and Show matchup? I think I underestimated how good that deck is because I just assume I have good game against most combo decks as a delver deck. Today I got my second loss against Sneak and Show. Kept a hand that seemed pretty good on the play (3 lands, delver, deathrite, hymn). Unfortunately he had the nuts and went probe, land, petal, petal, show and tell griselbrand. g2 I had 2 lands, daze, force of will, spell pierce, deathrite, delver. Unfortunately that hand didn't get there since he had misdirect back up to counter my force of will pitching daze when he went for the combo on turn 3. I used my spell pierce to counter an earlier ponder. My opponent thinks I should have waited till he tried to go off to win the counter war since the ponder he played on his second turn was after he made his second land drop so he wasn't looking for lands. What do you guys think? I've always thought it's best to use soft counters to counter cantrips but maybe that's wrong headed.
In regards to Legacy:
The sneak attack matchup is a hard one. You don't counter the pantries. You need to counter their business spells. Hopefully you run extirpate and take their show and tell.
esper and this match up is the hardest. Even harder than elves
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