Congratulations. Your friends will be supporting counterfeiters.Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat
Sure, but what about legit buyers? If legit buyers cannot be confidant that they are buying actual WotC products, but instead may be receiving fakes are they going to pull the trigger on a $500 purchase? Its the loss of confidence and the chilling effect on markets and businesses that depend on MTG that is of paramount concern. The game does not thrive without businesses (LGS, Online Dealers, and WotC) to support it.
My understanding is that as far as these Chinese cards go, you can't just go buy a playset of anything. Minimum order is like several thousand cards for $5,000 or something. Beyond these sampler packs they're sending out, the manufacturer is still going to need to find a fence on this side to really distribute them to potential buyers. Still a lot of pieces that need to come to come to bear before we have some handy mtgblackmarket.com to do all out illicit counterfeit shopping at.
Just reposting this from MTGS because it is actually full of useful information instead of debates about the cost of living, discussion the last fad called "the underground sea diet", or bragging about how many staples we own.
55,000 Chinese MTG Counterfeits on January 19th Please Share!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ql-q0INFZI
Some of you may know MTGLion on Youtube; he normally does speculation videos (and has been an incredible speculator at that,) and he is a moderator on MTGSalvation under the username 'kirin'.
As the video explained, he had a two-and-a-half hour conversation with the distributor of the Chinese Counterfeits, and got information from him. The most prevalent and important information is that he will make and distribute 55,000 Counterfeit cards on January 19, mostly to Brazil and Spain. Other noteworthy information is confirmation that there hasn't been a market flood or massive shipment of these yet, so there's still time; that they have learned from the articles explaining how to spot fakes, and improved them; and that unless stopped, there will be another wave of 200,000 on the 23rd (of JAN) and they won't stop until stopped. This is very serious, much worse than I imagined.
Re read my post. Just because there are fakes doesn't mean people will stop buying real cards and stores won't be able to verify they are selling the real product.
Suppose I have Susan has intention on spending $2000 dollars on a deck, Susan doesn't play competitively, she doesn't plan on selling, or trading the cards then who is Susan harming by purchasing and playing with a counterfeit deck that she paid 50 dollars for?
If Jim wasn't going to spend $250 dollars on basic lands and Jim buys 30 proxy Unhinged Islands for 30 dollars for his kitchen table Azami EDH deck, who's the victim? I don't see how this hurts small card shops or Wizards of the Coast.
I'm no expert, but I'd imagine that WotC might try to stop all this by tracing counterfeit cards to the distributors making those multi-thousand dollar orders on this side of the ocean, where they can utilize the US justice system.
I'm sure there's some horrible Drug War analogy to be made. An endgame in which WotC supplies weapons to Chinese local game stores to fight paramilitary counterfeiters seems inevitable.
I think it's hilarious that people type things like this with a straight face and think they're making this really compelling argument.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
The article claimed you could get about 54,000 cards for $800. Assuming you want about a hundred playsets each of the power nine, beta duals, library of alexandria, etc., for your friends, that's what, slightly more than a penny a card? You could sell a full playset of beta duals for $5 and turn a profit. They might not be perfect, now, but they'll get better and better.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Exactly. Not to mention the sheer hypocrisy. How many people here play on Cockatrice? I'm not hearing you guys complaining about how Cockatrice is hurting MTGO. Oh wait, it's not. Tell me who the victim is when someone buys a proxied $2000 dollar legacy deck for only $50 they obviously weren't going actually to buy anyway.
I'm confused. So you are not supporting counterfeiters by buying fake products or are you saying we should encourage supporting counterfeits for some reason and if so what reason might that be?
Aside from any argument on whether or not this is ethical/moral/dickmove whatever, this is NOT the kind of thing you would want to be caught doing from a legal standpoint.
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
And you're assuming that EVERYONE who buys the "proxies" will be honest and won't try to pass them off as real cards to an unsuspecting trader or buyer.
Seriously, are you really that limited in intelligence that you can't figure out who the victim is?
What's the harm in supporting good proxies if you don't plan on reselling them, trading them, or playing with them competitively?
Do you think Cockatrice and Lackey are morally wrong? More importantly, do you honestly believe that are hurting MTGO?
It's amazing how you completely managed to fuck up this thread with hoards of useless spam. Whenever someone, including me, posted some new information in past couple of days when this thread has been up - an actual ON TOPIC information, it always got lost in spam and has been completely ignored. Useless "I know copyright, copyright is bad, good, I own black lotus, don't eat and buy Sea, i play majic in mah k'tchen w proxies ain't nobody gonna stop me" spam. Seriously, this is even worse than MTGS or 4chan. Someone please lock this terrible thread or I'm going to vomit all over the place.
Legacy
- Team Soviet Union
Pauper
- U/R Delver
- Urza Tron
Chinese fakes!
Then demonize the people that are trying to do those things. Don't attack casual players who want to play with convincing looking cards a couple times a week without spending 1000s of dollars.
Agreed, all the good information is drowned out by the white noise of Epissing contest this thread has turned into.
If it was the 80s I'd send Mr. T out to slap some sense into this thread
Then print out little pieces of paper and slide them over basic lands in sleeves. Please don't support these bastards.
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly."Got any trade boogas?"
Oh of course, we'll use the honor system!
"Everyone who wants to buy proxies please stand up, Ok everyone who is buying proxies just for personal casual use you can sit down.
Everyone who is buying proxies to pass off as real cards to make money please remain standing and identify yourselves to the proper authorities."
really dude? are you that naive?
It saves people money, which they can do other things with.
People listen to pirated music all the time. No one complains about counterfeited poker decks- who's getting the copyrights for that? For that matter, who is Wizards paying for all its borrowed intellectual property rights, from elves and goblins, to Dracula and Frankenstein, to Greek mythology?
What reason is there not to support counterfeiting, if the counterfeits are good?
I mean it's worth keeping in mind the vast disparity in what you would pay to support a band you like by buying their album instead of pirating it, maybe $10, or what you would pay to support a board game you like, maybe $40-60, or even what you'd pay to buy a full run of a show in DVDs or something like that, versus what it costs to build even a modest Magic deck in even a contemporary, non-eternal format.
And given Wizards' track record of protecting that investment against theft at their tournaments.... yeah, my sympathy's kind of limited.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
On topic is you posting screen shots of yourself ordering cards and asking him to print Black Lotus, go jump in a fire.
The victims of people supporting counterfeiters are the shops and the players. Players will get passed bad cards and it will be harder to sell their cards. Shops will have to scrutinize cards more and will lose out on sales to people who knowingly buy fakes when they otherwise would have invested in real cards (and occasionally fakes may slip into stores which represents a HUGE loss on their books). Without the casual idiot demand the printers will struggle to sell enough to justify firing up the machinery when they could just continue printing the normal products, apparently these counterfeits wouldn't even exist if someone hadn't tricked the company into it (they weren't even equipped to place a full order). Don't forget it takes time to set up all this equipment and formulate out how to do a good job. It's not like they go on Wizards and pull up an image and press print, there's a reason minimum orders are in the thousands of sheets. Also the printer makes the same amount off these they would off making their normal products, it's the idiots driving up demand that are going to cause the community to get flooded with fakes instead of the trickle we've had for so many years.
IDK what Lackey is. Cockatrice would be a good comparison if the creators were making a profit and using that to hack into MTGO and duplicate thousands and thousands of chase rares. That's not happening though, if it was would you support Cockatrice?
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
For sure. Why can't someone use their own printer for a proxy? Sure it obviously can't pass for the real thing but that wasn't the point, just good enough so that people can easily recognize what card you are playing.
Any new news? Saw that Mark Rosewater had a response to this operation. Only info was that he was aware of it. Wasn't expecting him to divulge anything though. :)
One thing that does concern me are that some real cards are going to be mistaken for fakes as cards have flaws in them. For instance I have a bunch of Ponders from M10, all from packs (i drafted m10 heavily when I got back into Magic). Some have a weird pink blotch on the bottom, some don't.
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