Chinese fakes

[TsumiBand]

According to the '34 act, a security does not include antiques or collectables. Anyone with a web crawler could chronicle the completed price range of any good or service on ebay or pricewatch, stick it on a website, and profit from speculating on price fluxations; that doesn't make it a security.

Indeed one *could* do it with anything, but it would be considered a misappropriation of handling. I stand by my duck typing; the Zen of Python is clear on such matters.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I made the following mistake:

Discussing with IBA.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Oh good call I totally missed that in the picture analysis.

I made the following arguments:

Magic product has legitimacy when people believe they can buy Magic product and it will be actual Magic product.

It's not clear what you mean here by legitimacy, or by "actual" Magic product. If the customer can't tell that a card is "fake," which is to say, made by someone other than Wizards' contracted card-makers, then in what sense are they damaged by this claimed illegitimacy?

Counterfeiting releases fake cards into the market.
Therefore, counterfeiting hurts the legitimacy of real Magic product.

LGSs are good.
LGSs rely on the legitimacy of Magic product in order to make profits.
Therefore, counterfeiting hurts LGSs.
Therefore, counterfeiting is bad.

Magic cards are expensive.
More people would be able to play if Magic if cards were cheaper.
More players would be good.
Therefore, Magic cards should be cheaper.

Do you not understand the contradiction here? Your syllogism is invalid because counterfeiting doesn't just hurt local game stores, even if we take your claims all at face value; it also helps them by making Magic cards cheaper.

In response to these arguments, you make the following statement:



Implicitly arguing:

The status quo is bad.
Dzra likes the status quo.
Therefore, Dzra's arguments may be dismissed.

No, you're very stupid and bad at reading. Status quo bias isn't a problem because the status quo is bad per se, but because it denotes reasoning that is clearly aimed at rationalizing whatever the status quo is. In your case, and you don't seem to have picked up on this yet although others have, saying, "Counterfeiting is bad, we have to protect local game stores," while saying, "I don't see what's wrong with SCG using the godbook to corner the market on cards that go well with future cards before local game stores can have that chance."

Again: It is an attack against you, because you are just making shit up as it comes to hand to justify whatever the status quo is, and clearly do not actually have underlying principles of what is or is not fair or desirable behavior or outcomes that you are basing your arguments on (without which all normative discussions are meaningless.)

[Stan]

You're implying that magic cards only cost $20.

No he isn't. Read again.

[Dzra]

It's not clear what you mean here by legitimacy, or by "actual" Magic product. If the customer can't tell that a card is "fake," which is to say, made by someone other than Wizards' contracted card-makers, then in what sense are they damaged by this claimed illegitimacy?

If one is not able to distinguish between something that is fake and something that is not fake then the legitimacy of said item is called into question. What are you not understanding?

Do you not understand the contradiction here? Your syllogism is invalid because counterfeiting doesn't just hurt local game stores, even if we take your claims all at face value; it also helps them by making Magic cards cheaper.

Local gaming stores are not interested in making cards cheaper. They are interested in you wanting to buy cards from them. There is no possible way that a LGS can compete with the price of fakes that can be mass produced for fractions of cents when an authentic card costs a minimum of 4$ for the LGS to open out of a pack. If there is no way to distinguish between fakes and authentic cards then the majority of buyers will turn to buying the much cheaper counterfeits. LGSs are not operating on a big profit margin here.

In your case, and you don't seem to have picked up on this yet although others have, saying, "Counterfeiting is bad, we have to protect local game stores," while saying, "I don't see what's wrong with SCG using the godbook to corner the market on cards that go well with future cards before local game stores can have that chance."

By all means, if someone has evidence that SCG is blatantly using the godbook in order to speculate then go prove it.

It is disturbing, if true. Until you prove it, it is merely speculation (no pun intended).

I made the following mistake:

Discussing with IBA.

It's reminiscent of debating with very religious people and ideologues in general, really. I keep thinking that eventually logic must break through, but all that ever happens is that they become defensive and belligerent.

No, you're very stupid and bad at reading.

You argue like a creationist. That is an example of ad hominem, by the way.

[Dice_Box]

Shit guys, take a moment and relax. This is starting to get far to close to personal attacks. Regardless of how you feel about the cards, that's not ok and we all know it.

I think this thread needs to be shut down for 3 days, lets tempers cool and then reopened. Because the issue is too important to not discuss, but most of the important points are being overlooking in favour of an emotion fuelled screaming match.

Edit:
Post number 666. Not sure if that's creepy or funny in this situation.

[Dzra]

I'm honestly not sure if this thread does have much of a point.

For the philosophical portion... aside from randoms on the internet, I'm sure most people are aware that counterfeiting is bad for the game.

For the practical side, discussing how to identify their fakes will only help these counterfeiters make better fakes.

There is a near-100% chance that WotC is already way on top of this and that the only reason we haven't heard from them yet is because they don't want to release how to identify the counterfeits until they are sure that this current group has been shut down. Until Wizards says something, don't buy cards you can't see in person. I'm not sure what else "on-topic" there is to discuss.

Post number 666. Not sure if that's creepy or funny in this situation.

I chuckled.

[HonorBasquiat]

I think it's probably safe to say you shouldn't buy cards online on websites like eBay anymore. I mean it's fine if you are buying a card from a LGS you trust though ebay, but from a random person like you or me seems risky. I've been lurking a lot of threads and forums online and there are people that are honestly willing to sell fakes to regular people with the mentality of "what they don't know, can't hurt them." Really sad. The sad part is it could already be happening to you. It is unlikely, but not impossible.

[Higgs]

First impression - in trade easily distinguishable.

So how are they easily distinguishable in person? Feel, texture, weight, shine?

[prateta]

So how are they easily distinguishable in person? Feel, texture, weight, shine?

Shine for sure. Also the picture quality is a bit lower on some of them.

Sent from my Lenovo S920_ROW using Tapatalk

[HonorBasquiat]

Shine for sure. Also the picture quality is a bit lower on some of them.

Sent from my Lenovo S920_ROW using Tapatalk

But you would say that when they are sleeved, during a game to an unskeptical eye they can pass as legit easily? I'm really looking forward to seeing your review of the cards and hearing you talk about them more.

[crow_mw]

Even with a side by side comparison I can only guess which ones are fake. No way this is easily discovered during a tournament play.

[BVB09]

Hi prateta, I don't want to be rude or mean that you're lying, but I have thought if you could share a photo for example of the envelope where the cards were. So everybody can confirm that those cards were sent by those chinese people.
What I mean is that the fakes are so good that this is serious, and some people may even been thinking of selling their collections because of that. And confirmation that you actually received the fakes would be very appreciated.
Again, it's not a personal attack or wherever, and sorry in advice if you have already posted evidence, but I'm a bit worried if those cards are proxies as you're saying.
Thank you very much :)

[swoop]

where can i order these cards?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If one is not able to distinguish between something that is fake and something that is not fake then the legitimacy of said item is called into question. What are you not understanding?

What you mean by "fake." The term, and the description of "illegitimacy," implies a loss of value somehow; but if the cards are truly indistinguishable it is not clear where this loss in value lies.

Local gaming stores are not interested in making cards cheaper. They are interested in you wanting to buy cards from them. There is no possible way that a LGS can compete with the price of fakes that can be mass produced for fractions of cents when an authentic card costs a minimum of 4$ for the LGS to open out of a pack. If there is no way to distinguish between fakes and authentic cards then the majority of buyers will turn to buying the much cheaper counterfeits. LGSs are not operating on a big profit margin here.

This is silly, it's already been pointed out that the counterfeiters work in bulk. It's actually an ideal distribution model for stores to purchase and then mark up on sales. You just don't like the implication that stores should sell counterfeits if they're that good.

It is disturbing, if true. Until you prove it, it is merely speculation (no pun intended).

Yeah, you're trying to cover it better than when you wrote this:

By all means, if someone has evidence that SCG is blatantly using the godbook in order to speculate then go prove it. Until then, I'm going to assume that SCG just feels that Trostani is undervalued. I have no problem with legitimate businesses trying to make money. SCG is the only reason that Legacy stays afloat.

But this is still mere bullshit justification. What do you want to "prove" it? It's already been shown that Starcity was trying to corner Cabal Therapies. Maybe that's a coincidence- oh wait, no, whoops, an extremely Eternal playable token-producer was just printed that would interact very well with Therapy.

But status quo bias is a powerful thing. All you know is that Starcity is "legitimate" and counterfeiters are "illegitimate" so you'll just search for arguments to confirm what you already know.

It's reminiscent of debating with very religious people and ideologues in general, really. I keep thinking that eventually logic must break through, but all that ever happens is that they become defensive and belligerent.

I'm imagining your fedora spinning wildly in sheer consternation.

Logic, as I already explained, is not what persuades people that a thing is true. Logic is the structure of arguments, and can connect and examine the connections between ideas, but it does not establish premises by itself. Perfectly logical arguments can be built on shitty premises or just those with which others disagree.

Besides which, like most internet loudmouths that jerk off to how "logical" they are, as opposed to their opponents, you really aren't. Or I wouldn't have to keep explaining the basics to you.

You argue like a creationist. That is an example of ad hominem, by the way.

No, that's an example of an insult, I just explained this.

There are three questions you must answer "yes" to before you can describe something as an ad hominem fallacy. Well, four, but the first is just, "is it an attack," which I think is less confusing, usually, so we'll skip to the three that make an attack into an ad hominem fallacy.

1) Is there an actual argument? You'd think this would be obvious but I encounter this mistake probably the most frequently. In order for anything to qualify as a logical fallacy it has to be part of a logical argument. "Logical" here does not mean "reasonable" or "fair" or anything like that, it means having to do with logic; the study, science, or math of propositions, or in another sense how ideas with potential truth values relate to one another in an argument. The logic of an argument refers to its structure. An argument can be logically sound and completely unreasonable, spurious nonsense; or logically unsound but with a very sound conclusion. At any rate, the point is, if there is no logical structure, there is no fallacy to point out.

2) Alright, but is the purported ad hominem actually doing any work in the argument? In other words, do any of the claims rest on the insult, or is the insult just sort of thrown in or irrelevant? If it's the latter, it's not an ad hominem fallacy. "X because of Y" is just as valid as, "X because of Y, fuckface." It doesn't matter if one is politer than the other.

3) Lastly, if yes to the previous two, is the attack irrelevant? If, for instance, we are arguing over whether or not you should be a small town mayor, many of the residents might be concerned if you do in fact go around fucking their dogs at night, if you are the notorious dog-fucker (the truth or falsity of the accusation is a separate issue from whether it is an ad hominem fallacy, of course.)

That was a bit of an aside but I see this term misused so often that I like to step out and correct it.

In this case:

Arguably, yes, yes, and no. You might certainly feel insulted by my dismissing your arguments and contradictions as mere status quo bias; it is an implicit argument that your opinion can be ignored; the reason it can be ignored is because it is status quo bias. However, the suggestion that you are merely defending your status quo bias is quite relevant to whether or not anyone should listen to you. Because an appeal to the status quo is itself fallacious.

So, to answer your question, no, not so much.

I hope this little lesson has been embiggening for you.

[metelhead]

Hi prateta, I don't want to be rude or mean that you're lying, but I have thought if you could share a photo for example of the envelope where the cards were. So everybody can confirm that those cards were sent by those chinese people.
What I mean is that the fakes are so good that this is serious, and some people may even been thinking of selling their collections because of that. And confirmation that you actually received the fakes would be very appreciated.
Again, it's not a personal attack or wherever, and sorry in advice if you have already posted evidence, but I'm a bit worried if those cards are proxies as you're saying.
Thank you very much :)

Just for reference....I saw in person one of the counterfeits of JTMS last night- it supposedly came from the N.Carolina (where this whole things started I think)....at any rate...if it was double sleeved one 'might' consider it passable(I would have taken pics, but its more of the tangable differences which don't photo well)...but other than that the example I saw has a long long way too go before I would firesale any of my cards(and not to say it won't or couldn't get there, either eventually)...1) the paper stock is super lightweight 2) the back printing is horribly wrong color and finish, 3) the front of the card may be correct in content, but again the finish is horrible and too shiny..
All that said- the guy who had the card was told this is an early version and the next versions will be improved...

[HonorBasquiat]

On 4Chan people are talking about these pictures saying that the corners are wrong, something about alpha corners and modern corners or something. I don't know what they are talking about and I guess I've never payed attention to corners and how round they are, but apparently it's really obvious to some people and would be even more obvious outside of a sleeve. Can someone explain this to me (and maybe pass this information on to Mtg Huang's operation :p)

[sdematt]

This may sound funny, but consider the following:

Even if there is an influx of fake cards, what are you holding right now, in hand? That's right, REAL CARDS. You don't have to worry about fake duals if you are careful when you buy, and if you deal with reputable people. But, I see SO many people forgetting the fact that the cards they have in hand, the ones they're worried about dropping like stones with panic selling, are the REAL FUCKING CARDS. Not fakes, REAL ONES.

If you don't need to sell during this whole thing, don't. Just hold onto them. The only people who benefit from this influx of cards are stores picking up real cards that people are panic selling.

Just let the tide wash over. Yes, it'll be tough for a bit since people will be used to spotting fakes, but remember, the majority of people are still going to have real cards. Just watch for Near Mint copies of old cards, those are really the only ones that you need to be MORE worried about.

If you need to still pick up near mint new cards, trade with people you know and trust, and make sure you own legitimate copies prior to going to some random on some forum board.

-Matt

[PirateKing]

This may sound funny, but consider the following:

Even if there is an influx of fake cards, what are you holding right now, in hand? That's right, REAL CARDS. You don't have to worry about fake duals if you are careful when you buy, and if you deal with reputable people. But, I see SO many people forgetting the fact that the cards they have in hand, the ones they're worried about dropping like stones with panic selling, are the REAL FUCKING CARDS. Not fakes, REAL ONES.

If you don't need to sell during this whole thing, don't. Just hold onto them. The only people who benefit from this influx of cards are stores picking up real cards that people are panic selling.

Just let the tide wash over. Yes, it'll be tough for a bit since people will be used to spotting fakes, but remember, the majority of people are still going to have real cards. Just watch for Near Mint copies of old cards, those are really the only ones that you need to be MORE worried about.

If you need to still pick up near mint new cards, trade with people you know and trust, and make sure you own legitimate copies prior to going to some random on some forum board.

-Matt

Matt, as I understand it the fears expressed here by others is that the cards they're holding only contain value when they can be readily and easily liquidated to cash, something threatened when the pool of buyer interest dries up once nobody is willing to pay $200 for their JTMS. If these people valued their cards as game pieces to be used to play, then your argument might hold sway over them. But that's not why they're bothered.

[JBlaze]

I'm imagining your fedora spinning wildly in sheer consternation.

Logic, as I already explained, is not what persuades people that a thing is true. Logic is the structure of arguments, and can connect and examine the connections between ideas, but it does not establish premises by itself. Perfectly logical arguments can be built on shitty premises or just those with which others disagree.

Besides which, like most internet loudmouths that jerk off to how "logical" they are, as opposed to their opponents, you really aren't. Or I wouldn't have to keep explaining the basics to you.

Not dignifying the rest of your post with a response. It's ironic that you just described your self perfectly.