Chinese fakes

[Russian Alara]

But why wait for the fakes to become a worry?

I'm considering selling a large amount of my collection because of this. They're not good enough now, but what about a year from now? 3 years? 5 years?

Rumor has it that a large shipment is being sent out on January 19th.

I wouldn't sell if I were you since because fakes will get better does not make the real cards any less worthy in the long run.

As for rumors , the world is round with them.

[DragoFireheart]

I wouldn't sell if I were you since because fakes will get better does not make the real cards any less worthy in the long run.

This is true, and based on what I have seen fakes are pretty easy to detect.

Even with reprints, many older card still maintain their value.

[Lord Seth]

A substantial number of the cards on the "fake list" are Standard cards. The majority are Modern-legal. Only five are cards on the Reserved List.

You might have noticed I said nothing about the Reserved List and referred only to their "reprint policies." Certainly the Reserved List is problematic, but even if we ignore it, Wizards of the Coast is absolutely awful at supplying demand for the non-Reserved cards. They've gotten a little better starting with Return to Ravnica, but the things they've been doing lately are things they should have done years earlier. And while Modern Masters was a step in the right direction, it was ultimately just a baby step because of its tiny print run.

I will agree that the high price of cards on the secondary market contributes to the problem, but in the sense that more players are willing to condone fakes. Wizards would never be able to compete with Chinese counterfeiters who can produce these cards at less than 1c per copy while still being able to maintain the integrity of Magic as a collectible card game. They have counterfeited cards as cheap as Figure of Destiny, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, and basic lands (Unhinged).

You're right they've counterfeited cheap cards. But here's the thing: If there weren't far more valuable cards to counterfeit, would they have done it just for the cheap cards? I can't read their minds, but it seems like that they might have started with the more expensive ones and figured they might as well do the cheaper ones while they were already doing it.

As a side note, the only people I ever see actually refer to Magic as a "collectible card game" (rather than "trading card game") are people who are deliberately using that term to try to appeal to the idea of there being few copies of cards. Indeed, Wizards doesn't refer to it as such. At any rate, I will further address the "collectible" argument in the next portion:

Wizards cannot realistically just flood the market with every single staple to the point that every card is worth less than $2. It would completely undermine the collectible aspect of this game, which they've deemed important.

Now that's utter nonsense. A reprint doesn't undermine the collectible aspect of the game.

You could reprint Black Lotus at common. The original versions are still very collectible because those new versions are different. An Alpha, Beta, or Unlimited Black Lotus is collectible because it's rare and highly unique. Having there be a Magic 2015 version of it doesn't change that any more than there being twenty zillion copies of Shakespeare's plays in print means original copies of The First Folio aren't collectible or extremely expensive.

There are some cards whose value could be harmed by a reprint. For example, Thoughtseize is a lot cheaper now. But Thoughtseize wasn't a collectible. People got Thoughtseizes because they wanted to use them (or in the case of a vendor, buying and selling). You don't do that with a collectible. No one buys a copy of The First Folio because they think Shakespeare was a great guy and they just want to read his plays. People don't buy Inverted Jenny stamps because they want to mail something.

Reprints do nothing to undermine the collectible aspect of the game. The only part it "undermines" is the financial or speculating aspect of the game, which is actually quite different. To be honest, if a reprint does hit the price of a card hard, it means that card wasn't collectible to begin with, and the reason it was expensive was because people wanted to use.

I have no issue with people viewing some of the cards as collectibles. Some quite frankly are excellent collectibles, such as the blue Hurricane that I believe fetches over ten thousand dollars. But reprints do not harm the collectible aspect of the game, just the speculative aspect. The reprint policies of Wizards of the Coast, the Reserved List most notably, aren't about keeping cards collectible; they're about keeping cards expensive.

[HonorBasquiat]

Some questions:

So I'm sort of losing track of time. Isn't the 19th a significant date, the day numerous cards ship/arrive?

Shouldn't we be seeing a huge influx of reviews and pictures of proxies soon?

Also, do we have any idea of how many orders Mr. Huang's operation has placed or how many proxy cards he is planing on printing so far?

I also wanted to verify that Mr. Huang is still shipping to America, he's just being more subtle about it. Is that correct?

[JanoschEausH]

I don't know... Where I live mail isn't delivered on sundays. So propably not in Europe.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

snip

Reprints do nothing to undermine the collectible aspect of the game. The only part it "undermines" is the financial or speculating aspect of the game, which is actually quite different. To be honest, if a reprint does hit the price of a card hard, it means that card wasn't collectible to begin with, and the reason it was expensive was because people wanted to use.

I have no issue with people viewing some of the cards as collectibles. Some quite frankly are excellent collectibles, such as the blue Hurricane that I believe fetches over ten thousand dollars. But reprints do not harm the collectible aspect of the game, just the speculative aspect. The reprint policies of Wizards of the Coast, the Reserved List most notably, aren't about keeping cards collectible; they're about keeping cards expensive.

Perfect! Very well written!

[SilverGreen]

People keep making the analogy that this is like mp3's and the music industry but I don't think that makes any sense. I think a more relevant analogy would be if people were printing fake tickets good enough to get into shows. You can justify it by saying concerts are too expensive but in the end if enough people are buying fake tickets, especially on purpose, and getting into live shows with them, soon enough there aren't any more live shows.

I really think the mp3 anology is far more accurate than the fake tickets one, for a reason I didn't see discussed here yet: Magic is nowadays far more than just a collectable card game. It became a cultural feature.

As movies or music prior to it, MtG falls under a very peculiar classification, one that exceeds mere definitions about "who owns the rights". Magic isn't just a product anymore. WotC's itself spent the last 20 years making the cards extrapolate its "collectable" and "game" aspects. It created a social tool, an entire lifestyle, a powerful cultural manifestation. And one can't confine culture inside walls or hold it in a vault. Even though companies hold to their Copyright model (as expected, I'm not arguing against that) and support laws that preserve their rights, and even though legal gurus still label people who download media as "criminals", there's a worldwide tendency of pulling this model down, SPECIALLY outside the U.S.

I think it's general consensus that WotC/Hasbro owns the rights over Magic, and it's the one who earns profit over the product. No one's saying otherwise. But they created a dilemma. Culture shouldn't be treated as an stock market, and it can't be suppressed unpunished. The company created something very special, something whose sole ownership isn't satisfying anymore. People do not want to just own Magic anymore, they want to be a part of everything Magic has become. And that's the crucial point we're missing.

It far surpasses the economical issues. As there's this economic AND cultural demand WotC's current entrepreneur strategies, whichever they are, have no interest in satisfy, the company's paving a road to the counterfeiters. Someone will fulfill this hole. And although people do not endorse the faker's methods, they fully embrace the "spirit" of what they're doing (how ironic).

WotC is an amazing company with an amazing product, but some of its own policies has been collaborating for this scenario. So it seems they are creating their own Napster.

[swoop]

What is interesting is that SCG is pushing this topic further with their articles. Is it possible that they're a part of this scheme?

Is it possible that they get insider info in return for pushing WOTC's new "secure" card design? #conspiracy2014

[Barook]

What is interesting is that SCG is pushing this topic further with their articles. Is it possible that they're a part of this scheme?

Is it possible that they get insider info in return for pushing WOTC's new "secure" card design? #conspiracy2014

SCG has their own agenda with said articles, but it goes more into the direction "buy your shit here, no risk of fakes" and/or "ZOMG, PANIC! SELL US YOUR COLLECTION BEFORE YOUR CARDS BECOME WORTHLESS! (so we can sell them for profit in the meantime)"

[MaximumC]

I have no issue with people viewing some of the cards as collectibles. Some quite frankly are excellent collectibles, such as the blue Hurricane that I believe fetches over ten thousand dollars. But reprints do not harm the collectible aspect of the game, just the speculative aspect. The reprint policies of Wizards of the Coast, the Reserved List most notably, aren't about keeping cards collectible; they're about keeping cards expensive.

You're right, but I wonder if it matters. To most people who are talking about the "collectible" value of cards, clearly they're talking about maintaining the cash value of those collectibles. Wasn't that obvious? The question is more, what is the effect of changes in the price of collectibles? While I agree card prices are in a bubble and should deflate, a catastrophic price crash could very well cause all the problems people are mentioning in this thread even while an Alpha Black Lotus remains a "collectible." Forest for the trees, and all that.

[swoop]

You're right, but I wonder if it matters. To most people who are talking about the "collectible" value of cards, clearly they're talking about maintaining the cash value of those collectibles. Wasn't that obvious? The question is more, what is the effect of changes in the price of collectibles? While I agree card prices are in a bubble and should deflate, a catastrophic price crash could very well cause all the problems people are mentioning in this thread even while an Alpha Black Lotus remains a "collectible." Forest for the trees, and all that.

People want to play the cards. Its a game of skill as much as a game of money - people with more money can access more cards and play better decks, in turn getting prizes, and then more cards. You have to invest way way more then in previous years to just be "competitive".

I hate it. I like to buy sometimes cards from 10-20$ to bolster my decks, but SFM for 20$ is shit. Or JTM, or some other best of the best fetches and stuffs.

Mystics ruined magic.

[HonorBasquiat]

Isn't prateta working on a review, where is it? Still happening?

[MaximumC]

People want to play the cards. Its a game of skill as much as a game of money - people with more money can access more cards and play better decks, in turn getting prizes, and then more cards. You have to invest way way more then in previous years to just be "competitive".

I hate it. I like to buy sometimes cards from 10-20$ to bolster my decks, but SFM for 20$ is shit. Or JTM, or some other best of the best fetches and stuffs.

Mystics ruined magic.

Well yeah, cards are too expensive and all that, but what I was asking was how you reduce the price in a way that doesn't cause massive problems for tournament support and the culture. One might not LIKE expensive cards, but that's largely what is propping up the large Magic institutions now. How do you deal with the problem without just putting on your Guy Fawkes mask and blowing up parliament?

[Darkenslight]

Well yeah, cards are too expensive and all that, but what I was asking was how you reduce the price in a way that doesn't cause massive problems for tournament support and the culture. One might not LIKE expensive cards, but that's largely what is propping up the large Magic institutions now. How do you deal with the problem without just putting on your Guy Fawkes mask and blowing up parliament?

Something akin to the 'Buried Treasures' theme of Zendikar, but based on modifying all Reserved List cards such that you send one to Wizards, and get an updated card with a special holo that explicitly states 'Exclusive to Wizards Reservation Redemption Scheme' or something. Make it common enough that people all over can get the cards, but not so common as to devalue the cards themselves; so, something like a 1-in-100 boosters, the token/insert/land gets replaced by a 'Treasure', which is a Reserved List card.

[Kayradis]

[MaximumC]

Wow, that's the worst attempted use of that meme I have ever seen.

@Darken: That doesn't sound like it would bring prices down enough. Additional supply wouldn't keep up with new players entering the format. Chronicles II sounds more like where I'd want to be with this. Or, you could do FNM foil versions of reserve list cards.

[Tenebroleso]

Well yeah, cards are too expensive and all that, but what I was asking was how you reduce the price in a way that doesn't cause massive problems for tournament support and the culture. One might not LIKE expensive cards, but that's largely what is propping up the large Magic institutions now. How do you deal with the problem without just putting on your Guy Fawkes mask and blowing up parliament?

One "red border" card in each booster. Only legal in Vintage and Legacy. Not only staples, but always cards with old layout. Just an idea, can work?

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[Bed Decks Palyer]

Any news on the new batch of fakes?

[Barook]

I'm interested as well. The topic was kinda forgotten due to the SoL excitement and TNN banning discussion.

[HonorBasquiat]

If anyone still cares, here are some photos.

http://puu.sh/6w0aa
http://puu.sh/6w09m
http://puu.sh/6w08U
http://puu.sh/6w08d
http://puu.sh/6w07A
http://puu.sh/6w062

The corners are a little off, but most players, especially casual players and newer players aren't even aware of alpha corners, and they certainly won't keep and eye out for that stuff. The cards are supposedly slightly thinner but it's not noticeable when sleeved.