[Deck] Bant

[raulrubio]

Llawan have too high cost, it's better zealous persecution to kill TNN

[TLK]

So, with Blouses in mind, I sleeved up the following deck last night. Haven't had the chance to meet up with anyone to test it, but there's a local Legacy event tomorrow night and I'll probably bring it there to get some games in. Any feedback would be appreciated.

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Geist of St. Traft
1 Rafiq of the Many

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
3 Groundswell
2 Berserk

4 Unstable Mutation
2 Spectral Flight

4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Karakas

Basically, get a t1 mana dork into t2 3-drop hexproof guy. Then just pump him w/enchants and you have Groundswell/Berserk has out of nowhere wins. Protection in the form of 8 counterspells. I realize there isn't any removal, but in all fairness we don't really care about opposing creatures (hence Spell Pierce over a tempo-killer like Daze). TNN can't be blocked, and Geist will typically not be blocked w/Spectral Flight on it. Rancor could be a good choice as well to give it trample so that it doesn't get chumped. Not sure yet, though. Sideboard is a work in progress.

Thoughts?

edit - sorry, not sure how to include deck/card tags.

[kingsey]

TLK I dig the idea.

I do think you need to run 4 berserks. When they are used in multiples its amazing.

This is something i may test around with.

[TLK]

Thanks! I'm excited to try it out as well. Anything immediately strike you as weak? 4 Berserk sounds good, but I'm not sure what I'd cut. Maybe the Groundswells?

[Final Fortune]

In Hong Kong is Llawan Cephalid Empress a very good Card in Sodeboards against True Name Nemesis Decks. Is it worth to think about this card playing in the own sideboard or playing against it?

It's been amazing tech, supporting black for Zealous Persecution is awkward and we have the mana base and the mana ramp in order to resolve Llawan on turn 3 vs UWR Delver and her CC makes her immune to Abrupt Decay completely. Personally, I think it's BANT's equivalent to Zealous Persecution and Golgari Charm and let me cut black from the deck altogether. Being a board wipe and lock vs Merfolk is also icing on the cake ... I think we'll see more of the Empress in the near future.

[anwei]

I'm considering running an 8 dork, 4 TNN, 2 Geist, 4 SFM list for an upcoming event, going in with very minimal testing. Not ideal, but, if anyone has experience/results and could answer the following, that'd be very helpful:
-Lots of lists are running basic forest. Does that really feel good to have, or like a huge pain with 4x Daze?
-Similarly, 2nd Bayou vs. U Sea - do you find yourself leaving up 1 land for DRS often enough to like Bayou, or do you hate yourself for having a nonbasic which, when tight on mana, has 2 ways of casting DRS and is otherwise just a Forest?
-With a game plan of fast hexproof action, Batterskull seems weak, like you'd often rather have Jitte or Fire/Ice, even when they don't have the removal. Has this really been good enough?
-On Swords: F/I and F/F and B/M all seem like fair candidates for different matches. Fire/Ice probably makes the most sense, in letting Geist go to work against TNN decks while having pretty reasonable abilities, but maybe those are already well-enough positioned matches?
-How has Jace been working?

Thanks.

[HSCK]

I haven't tested it as extensively as Zenith Bant but I've liked it so far. You really want to be where Deathrite is right nw and you have a fair amount of I win draws.

Definitely FaI, pressure and gas. Jace I still like as a 2-of because of the versatility you get in the midgame. I like the basic forest, as it allows you to get mana dorks without worrying about Wasteland early. Batterskull is always good because it's your only real late game play when you're on the defensive and will let you steal wins.

[anwei]

So, I did play this today and split the finals of 25 or so. Unremarkable list:
2 Trop
2 Tundra
2 U Sea
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Misty
3 Wooded Foothills (only own 3)
1 Flooded Strand

4 Hierarch
4 DRS
4 SFM
4 TNN
2 Geist
2 JTMS
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Feat/Famine (didn't/don't own and couldn't find/buy Fire/Ice in time)

4 Brainstorm
4 StP
4 FoW
4 Daze

Board
1 PtE
2 Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 K Grip
2 Zealous Persecution
2 E Tutor
1 E Canonist
1 D Sphere
1 RiP
1 Cage

We typically have a lot of storm, but there was very little today - tons of Delver decks instead. Beat the mirror, Punishing Jund, and UWR Delver, double ID into T8, beat RUG Delver then Junk and split with Punishing Jund from R2.

Here were thoughts, from very little testing and the event, where I only played 5 actual rounds (so take them with a grain):
-This deck seems awesome against fair decks. Even when I was getting Charmed or my mana attacked, I continually had a stream of awesome threats.
-In fair matches, FoW over-perfomed. I think Sam Black commented to this effect after the GP, but where it would often come out in other matches, the density of expensive things to be spending mana on meant getting 2-for-1'd wasn't so bad. Also, your guys are hexproof, their only real shot at "removal" is on the stack, so tapping out and fighting is important. Unless I needed space for important hate stuff like K Grip, I typically only boarded out 2 FoW on the Play and 2-3 Daze, 0-1 FoW on the Draw. Turns out, since you're so often tapping out and TNN is so ubiquitous, Force might be better removal than Path - I might cut it from the board and plan on keeping an extra counter in. It's good enough on turn 2-6 against fair decks that I was fine with a low blue count.
-I tested comparatively few combo games (seriously maybe 5), but the relevant portion of the deck against combo, particularly post-board, is one I'm reasonable familiar with, and it's not too shabby - 8 maindeck counters and post-board 10+2 Cliques+permanent hate is decent.
-Side note: E Tutor is underplayed, especially since it's "drawback" - card disadvantage - comes packaged in the ideal scenario on the play against Storm, Dredge, and Reanimator - you have a 1-drop that finds your back-breaking 2-drop (Canonist/RiP) and auto-hides it from discard.

Increasingly controversial things I haven't tested, but will:
-Forest seemed questionable. It's payout should come in Tempo matches where being stuck on your single basic is fine bc 8 dorks, but UWR has like 8-10 removal (counting lavamancer), and RUG usually has 5-6 main. You can't operate on Forest - it has to get you back in the game by casting guys who don't get Daze'd or killed. I got caught on Forest-can't-cast-TNN more than it helped get me out of tough situations. The same is probably true of Karakas. Those maybe should be 3rd Trop and 9th fetch - there's enough fancy mana going on already.
-Jace did nothing all day. If I was winning, it wasn't in a way that needed his help - they were basically helpless anyway. If I was losing, he'd come down in a panicked fervor to try and do something before dying. Between unblockable things and the ubiquity of lightning bolt, I wasn't a fan. He does, of course, rule some games, and there will always be otherwise-hopeless board states against weird decks like Lands, Pox, or E Bridge that he's your best shot. But he didn't do much. Except pitch to Force. Which was awesome.
-Elspeth seems like she'd be very good in many matches at doing what you need. When you're up, she accelerates you big time (especially with Geist). When you're down, she protects herself while gaining Loyalty. Liliana/board wipes are a real thing, and if you fall below a critical mass of stuff and Lily is eating you, she turns all your equipment back on (and in a big way). I might try 1-2 (though cutting Jace drops the blue count a little low for g1 force against combo).
-I'm not sure about Stoneforge, or at least about 4. Like in Maverick, she's a better Jitte/Sword tutor than ->Batterskull wincon, and she's clunky at that. Maybe 2 SFM, 2 Jitte, 1 Sword FI. There were definitely some charming plays where I'd get Hierarch bolted, then run out DRS into StP, then smugly play Stoneforge and search up Batterskull (bc who has 3 removal?). The dream sequence is T1 Hierarch, T2 Hexproof, T3 Jitte, Equip, crash; drawing equipment is awesome - tutoring for it (then getting your squire killed because your other threats can't be) isn't.

Overall, this was really fun to play, and the deck in the format that I'd be playing right now.

[DragoFireheart]

Having both Noble and DRS seems kinda bad. Why not replace one of the two for Goyf?

Then you have a deck with TNN, Goyf, and SFM.

[KobeBryan]

So, I did play this today and split the finals of 25 or so. Unremarkable list:
2 Trop
2 Tundra
2 U Sea
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Misty
3 Wooded Foothills (only own 3)
1 Flooded Strand

4 Hierarch
4 DRS
4 SFM
4 TNN
2 Geist
2 JTMS
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Feat/Famine (didn't/don't own and couldn't find/buy Fire/Ice in time)

4 Brainstorm
4 StP
4 FoW
4 Daze

Board
1 PtE
2 Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 K Grip
2 Zealous Persecution
2 E Tutor
1 E Canonist
1 D Sphere
1 RiP
1 Cage

We typically have a lot of storm, but there was very little today - tons of Delver decks instead. Beat the mirror, Punishing Jund, and UWR Delver, double ID into T8, beat RUG Delver then Junk and split with Punishing Jund from R2.

Here were thoughts, from very little testing and the event, where I only played 5 actual rounds (so take them with a grain):
-This deck seems awesome against fair decks. Even when I was getting Charmed or my mana attacked, I continually had a stream of awesome threats.
-In fair matches, FoW over-perfomed. I think Sam Black commented to this effect after the GP, but where it would often come out in other matches, the density of expensive things to be spending mana on meant getting 2-for-1'd wasn't so bad. Also, your guys are hexproof, their only real shot at "removal" is on the stack, so tapping out and fighting is important. Unless I needed space for important hate stuff like K Grip, I typically only boarded out 2 FoW on the Play and 2-3 Daze, 0-1 FoW on the Draw. Turns out, since you're so often tapping out and TNN is so ubiquitous, Force might be better removal than Path - I might cut it from the board and plan on keeping an extra counter in. It's good enough on turn 2-6 against fair decks that I was fine with a low blue count.
-I tested comparatively few combo games (seriously maybe 5), but the relevant portion of the deck against combo, particularly post-board, is one I'm reasonable familiar with, and it's not too shabby - 8 maindeck counters and post-board 10+2 Cliques+permanent hate is decent.
-Side note: E Tutor is underplayed, especially since it's "drawback" - card disadvantage - comes packaged in the ideal scenario on the play against Storm, Dredge, and Reanimator - you have a 1-drop that finds your back-breaking 2-drop (Canonist/RiP) and auto-hides it from discard.

Increasingly controversial things I haven't tested, but will:
-Forest seemed questionable. It's payout should come in Tempo matches where being stuck on your single basic is fine bc 8 dorks, but UWR has like 8-10 removal (counting lavamancer), and RUG usually has 5-6 main. You can't operate on Forest - it has to get you back in the game by casting guys who don't get Daze'd or killed. I got caught on Forest-can't-cast-TNN more than it helped get me out of tough situations. The same is probably true of Karakas. Those maybe should be 3rd Trop and 9th fetch - there's enough fancy mana going on already.
-Jace did nothing all day. If I was winning, it wasn't in a way that needed his help - they were basically helpless anyway. If I was losing, he'd come down in a panicked fervor to try and do something before dying. Between unblockable things and the ubiquity of lightning bolt, I wasn't a fan. He does, of course, rule some games, and there will always be otherwise-hopeless board states against weird decks like Lands, Pox, or E Bridge that he's your best shot. But he didn't do much. Except pitch to Force. Which was awesome.
-Elspeth seems like she'd be very good in many matches at doing what you need. When you're up, she accelerates you big time (especially with Geist). When you're down, she protects herself while gaining Loyalty. Liliana/board wipes are a real thing, and if you fall below a critical mass of stuff and Lily is eating you, she turns all your equipment back on (and in a big way). I might try 1-2 (though cutting Jace drops the blue count a little low for g1 force against combo).
-I'm not sure about Stoneforge, or at least about 4. Like in Maverick, she's a better Jitte/Sword tutor than ->Batterskull wincon, and she's clunky at that. Maybe 2 SFM, 2 Jitte, 1 Sword FI. There were definitely some charming plays where I'd get Hierarch bolted, then run out DRS into StP, then smugly play Stoneforge and search up Batterskull (bc who has 3 removal?). The dream sequence is T1 Hierarch, T2 Hexproof, T3 Jitte, Equip, crash; drawing equipment is awesome - tutoring for it (then getting your squire killed because your other threats can't be) isn't.

Overall, this was really fun to play, and the deck in the format that I'd be playing right now.

I think if you drop 1 sfm 2 jace for pridemages and a rafiq you will have more game and protection against swords and enchantments

[Mortox]

@TLK, if you end up going to 4x Berserk, might be worth considering Thrun in the list as his regen survives the Berserk "destroy" effect and fits your theme. Not sure if it's worth going up to a 4cmc creature but it's an option.

[KobeBryan]

I just playtested anwei's decklist several games. Man this deck is so mana intensive. Running 21 lands seems like its not enough. Let alone the lone forest he runs. You can't have anything that is a single colored source mana.

I'm tapping out each turn

I did take out the jaces and a sfm for 2 pridemages and 1 rafiq

I may actually go to 3 pridemages because i can do more things against equipment decks now. Rafiq seems like a win more deal that ruins the curve.

sideboard is a pack shit of counterspells

[anwei]

To be clear, for those who don't know, this is not my deck - it was linked a few pages ago, but 4-0'd some daily events, was featured by Glen Jones here, and has shown up on TC Decks in a few events.

Having both Noble and DRS seems kinda bad. Why not replace one of the two for Goyf?
Then you have a deck with TNN, Goyf, and SFM.

As above, GSZ+Hierarch is 8 dorks, just the same. Both push your action forward in different ways, and DRS gives you more guys with >1 toughness in Golgari Charm world. This is the UWGb version of UWBg Death-TNN-Blade, trading the 3-5/4 planeswalker/hexproof split for a 2?/6 split, trading some lands for a second set of mana dorks, and trading discard for Daze. These 3 swaps are certainly synergistic, make more of the equipment options, and help fix the Deathblade manabase. The deck has so much to do, especially in the way of T2 3-drops, that it wants all 8 guys. Goyf plays a much different role, and the deck is already threat-saturdated.

I just playtested anwei's decklist several games. Man this deck is so mana intensive. Running 21 lands seems like its not enough. Let alone the lone forest he runs. You can't have anything that is a single colored source mana.

I'm tapping out each turn

I did take out the jaces and a sfm for 2 pridemages and 1 rafiq

I may actually go to 3 pridemages because i can do more things against equipment decks now. Rafiq seems like a win more deal that ruins the curve.

Def. satisfyingly mana intensive, but 21 is fine with 8 guys.
I don't think Rafiq is high enough impact without GSZ.
Pridemage is definitely valuable in equipment-heavy metas as they are. I might rather run Abrupt Decay?

[raulrubio]

I have finished 3º/4º yesterday in a tournament with this list:


4 noble hierarch
1 deathrite shaman
4 true name nemesis
2 knight of the reliquary
3 stoneforge mystic
1 scavenging ooze
1 qasali pridemage

2 jace, the mind sculptor
4 brainstorm
3 daze
3 force of will
4 swords to plowshares
3 green sun's zenith
1 ponder
1 jitte
1 batterskull

4 windswept heath
4 misty rainforest
3 wasteland
1 island
1 forest
3 tropical island
2 tundra
1 savannah
1 bayou
1 karakas
1 dryad arbor

Sideboard:

2 flusterstorm
1 spell pierce
2 relic of progenitus
2 vendilion clique
1 life from the loam
2 zealous persecution
1 gaddock teeg
1 ethersworn canonist
1 sword of fire and ice
2 meddling mage

The matchups were:

R1: the rock 1-2
R2: painters 2-0
R3: RG burn 2-1
R4: esper stoneblade 2-1
R5: grixis ID

Top8: grixis 2-0
Top4: merfolks 1-2

I'm thinking to put another time the humility in the sideboard, it's to strong and auto-win to different pairings.

[Lysandros]

For what it's worth, I went 4-0 and won a local Legacy event, then a week later made top 8 of the same tournament that anwei won with a very similar 8-dork list. My losses in the second tournament came to the same UWr Delver list twice (once in the Swiss and in the top 8). I got crushed in those games, and there's a good reason why: I was too greedy with my manabase and ran only 20 lands with no basics. Each game I lost was literally a turn one Delver followed by turn two fry mana dork, waste dual. I hadn't really tested the tempo matchup when making the 20 land decision, and I don't recommend it. Other than tempo, I'm beating most everything fairly handily. I'll probably go up to 21 lands going forward.

As near as I can tell, my MD was only different from anwei's in that I ran a 20-land manabase, and I had a maindeck Garruk Relentless. A controversial choice, but I've found him to be a very useful draw. My sideboard is quite a bit different.

It's definitely a good deck, but I'm not sure it's better than Esper. It's more fun than Esper though, for sure.

[Meshuggah]

This past weekend my friend and I were testing Shardless BUG vs Esper Stoneblade. We started discussing the power of Shardless Agent and I asked what he thought about cascading into Stoneforge Mystic. It seems like a powerful tool to add with Ancestral Visions. So I was wondering if anyone else has thought about this and has any suggestion.

[anwei]

There are 2 deck-buildilng concerns that cascade introduces - high-powered spells to cheat with, and suitably replacing cards you can't play because they're such poor flips. TLDR: Bant is probably worse than BUG on both counts, and I don't think the upsides are high enough to make it a good choice.

In addition to Visions, Shardless BUG can play Abrupt Decay as an upgrade on the STP effect while minimizing its downside (costing twice as much in non-blue colors) through Cascade, and can play Hymn, again minimizing BB with cascade. The Bant payoffs are not as large - you probably still want StP, but it's a less-efficient and sometimes less-versatile flip. Stoneforge isn't bad, and Stoneforge+Goyf gives more threats as potential flips, but having better threat density isn't as compelling when your threats include 1/2 and 2/2s. There was some list that Caleb posted a while back for a Bant Cascade deck (link here) using Stoneforge and Thopter Foundry, which gives another high impact mid/late-game flip (and Sword of the Meek obviously goes well with SFM).

The second issue is losing access to untimely 1- and 2-drop flips, most obviously soft counters. BUG can run Thoughtseize/Hymn/Lily and have a nice disruption package with only FoW (if that) for countermagic, but no great alternative exists in Bant. Caleb's list was boarding 4 Ensnaring Bridge and 3 Counterbalance (2 maindeck tops). You probably need some sort of permanents to answer combo, and that's hard to do very well. Maybe running Thalia maindeck would help?

[Meshuggah]

This is what I came up with off the top of my head:
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Shardless Agent

4x Ancestral Vision
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Force of Will
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Batterskull
1x Jitte

3x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
2x Savannah
1x Academy Ruins
3x Wasteland
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Flooded Strand
2x Windswept Heath

Four slots remaining. I was thinking 2 Snapcaster Mages, 1 Misdirection, and 1 Sylvan Library. I agree this doesn't have all the awesome spells that Black brings but its something I would like some input on.

[KobeBryan]

This is what I came up with off the top of my head:
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Shardless Agent

4x Ancestral Vision
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Force of Will
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Batterskull
1x Jitte

3x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
2x Savannah
1x Academy Ruins
3x Wasteland
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Flooded Strand
2x Windswept Heath

Four slots remaining. I was thinking 2 Snapcaster Mages, 1 Misdirection, and 1 Sylvan Library. I agree this doesn't have all the awesome spells that Black brings but its something I would like some input on.

tried and done....

its not anything that would be better than BUG

[TLK]

Thanks! I'm excited to try it out as well. Anything immediately strike you as weak? 4 Berserk sounds good, but I'm not sure what I'd cut. Maybe the Groundswells?

So I upped the Berserk count to the full 4. Still haven't been able to test it as I've been super busy, but goldfishing has signified that you need to mulligan aggressively. If my starting 7 doesn't have a hexproof guy/Brainstorm, I'll typically send it back.

Right now, the list is:

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Thrun, The Last Troll

4 Unstable Mutation
2 Spectral Flight

4 Berserk
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce

20 land (I think this could even drop to 18-19 w/8 mana dorks)


Sideboard would probably include 3-4 Leyline of Sanctity (as hand disruption/Liliana basically kills this deck), some graveyard/combo hate, Path to Exile, etc.