Chinese fakes

[CHaPuZaS]

In your article you wrote about a wave of fakes that hit the european market in spring 2012. I never heard of that. What are the differences between those fakes and real cards? Did you write an article about that, which you could link to us?

Sure, here it is!

Sobre unas Nuevas Falsificaciones y Conspiranoias Varias, by César "CHaPuZaS" Fernández

The main differences were that these fakes were better. It's weigh was pretty similar, it felt and looked more like a legit card, but in the end, those also were distinguishable.

[Illusions]

Unlawful and immoral are two very different ideas, one not necessarily having anything to do with the other. I will agree it's not unlawful. It's highly immoral. The fact that you don't see that but understand the legal applications and wherewithal of all this is highly suspect to me. What kind of printer do you own?

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

How is it immoral in any way, shape, or form? You seem to recognise that legality and morality are two very different things, which is a step up from most people in this thread, but you haven't provided any basis for your argument. So on what grounds do you argue that it is somehow immoral for people to buy a few fakes to play with their mates? Because -- as I've already mentioned -- from a utilitarian perspective (a moral school of thought, fyi), obtaining these fakes for personal use is a perfectly moral thing to do.

I mean, consider that Wizards doesn't even print many cards necessary to play legacy due to the reserve list, and an unwillingness to reprint staples like Force of Will and Wasteland, and you can't even call it stealing. It's not illegal to obtain these for personal use, and the only real issue with it is that the cards are produced by a legitimate third party group that are practising copyright infringement. If your argument consists of depicting copyright infringement as immoral behaviour, that's a pretty low bar, especially given that in this case, copyright protection is actually hindering a healthy market process. This is a good post on the issue of copyright and morality, though there are many others out there. Here's a quote from an actual copyright lawyer of 27 years on the subject:

In terms of morality and the Valenti quote. To me, copyright is an economic right, not a moral right and does not raise moral issues. The Second Circuit made this point too, agreeing with Judge Lynch:

“Copyright and trademark are not matters of strong moral principle.
Intellectual property regimes are economic legislation based on policy
decisions that assign rights based on assessments of what legal rules will produce the greatest economic good for society as a whole.” Sarl Louis Feraud Int’l v. Viewfinder, Inc., 406 F. Supp. 2d 274, 281 (S.D.N.Y. 2005), affirmed on this point, vacated and remanded on other grounds, 489 F.3d 474, 480 n.3 (2d Cir. 2007).

Morality is used in the Copyright Wars as a way to cover up the inability to justify expansion of rights on economic grounds.

From this article.

It isn't even clear that copyright fulfils its stated purpose, which is to promote innovation, so really, the whole copyright-infringement-morality argument seems pretty damn shaky. As I've already tried to get through to people a number of times now, morality has no bearing on this discussion, and is a fall-back for those without any argument to speak of. There is nothing wrong with a few guys buying these and playing with their mates, provided they don't sell them, and don't try to trade them under the guise of them being real cards (disclosed trades should be fine, undisclosed trades would probably constitute fraud).

As for insinuating that I'm somehow involved in the production of counterfeits, don't be a child. Not only is that kind of accusation intellectually lazy, it doesn't add anything to the discussion at hand. If you find it suspicious that I make it my duty to be well informed and educated, maybe you should be playing less magic, and doing more reading.

[lordofthepit]

I am in support of reprints, but I cannot condone counterfeits. Furthermore, I feel a number of things you stated were misleading.

Card price is directly linked to playability, not reprint policy.

Playability and reprints are both parts of the supply/demand curve.

SCG is not only one of the primary vendors, they are effectively 90% of the US legacy tournament scene, and the major driving force behind its popularity as a format. Without SCG, legacy would be in very, very serious trouble.

How did you arrive at that figure of 90%? I would call it an exaggeration, but that would be giving it too much credit because I feel like you just pulled it out of your ass.

They are not 90% of the tournament scene, regardless of what metric you want to use, whether it's aggregate attendance, prize support, or whatever. SCG holds about 40 Legacy Opens each year, averaging perhaps 300 players per event, for a total of 12000 participants. One of my local game stores alone holds 50 weeklies with 30-40 players, accounting for at least 1500 players on just Monday nights alone, not even counting attendance from the larger (roughly monthly events) from that store alone, a number which by itself would already contradict your assertion of "90% of the US legacy tournament scene". There are dozens of other stores in the area that hold Legacy events, to say nothing of other large stores across the country.

At some stage -- I don't know when -- SCG will drop legacy as its Sunday format.

This is complete conjecture, and while it may happen, SCG has strengthened its commitment to Legacy in the last year by replacing all non-Legacy Sunday Opens with Legacy Sunday Opens for 2014. No one but the employees at SCG can know with certainty what their future plans are, but simply asserting something to match your assumptions does not make your case more compelling.

I'm not sure how many of you noticed, but this is already starting to happen, with numerous players on the larger message boards asking why SCG doesn't hold modern tournaments.

Many players have asked why SCG doesn't hold Modern tournaments on various forums, as well as on SCG's feedback page itself. This is not surprising, since a very vocal subset of players were convinced that SCG was going to abandon Legacy support in favor of Modern two years ago, and they considered the double Standard, Team Sealed, etc. Sunday Opens as part of a progression towards that end. When SCG announced that they were going back to Standard/Legacy Opens only, these players commented on the announcement page.

Even more players have applauded SCG for further committing to Legacy.

I'm going to shut this one down right now: legality is not, and never has been, a yardstick by which to measure morality. Just because something is illegal, doesn't make it wrong. Likewise, just because something is legal, doesn't make it right.

The production, sale, and use (in tournaments) of counterfeits are both illegal and immoral.

[Illusions]

Playability and reprints are both parts of the supply/demand curve.

Price is determined using both supply and demand, and you can't have a price without some form of demand. The number of cards in circulation constitutes the supply, and the playability of a card constitutes the vast bulk of its demand, with collectibility coming in at a distant second. If you have a vast supply, even the most highly sought after card will be cheap, but this isn't what we're talking about here. The cards we're discussing are limited in supply, and their demand comes from the fact that they are the best cards at what they do, in what is currently the premier competitive format in the game. Without playability, most cards are effectively worthless, as most every card in the game outside of a small percentage actually is. I honestly don't understand how people can be refuting this point, because it's basic -- we're talking about the exception when we discuss expensive cards, because the vast majority that have ever been printed are barely worth more than the cardboard they're printed on. They're not expensive because they're not playable.

Case in point: strip mine is practically worthless, while wasteland is now $100. If strip mine were playable in legacy, it would be a 4-of in most decks. Since it's banned, it has no playability, and thus no demand. It's effectively worthless because it isn't legal in any relevant format.

How did you arrive at that figure of 90%? I would call it an exaggeration, but that would be giving it too much credit because I feel like you just pulled it out of your ass.

They are not 90% of the tournament scene, regardless of what metric you want to use, whether it's aggregate attendance, prize support, or whatever. SCG holds about 40 Legacy Opens each year, averaging perhaps 300 players per event, for a total of 12000 participants. One of my local game stores alone holds 50 weeklies with 30-40 players, accounting for at least 1500 players on just Monday nights alone, not even counting attendance from the larger (roughly monthly events) from that store alone, a number which by itself would already contradict your assertion of "90% of the US legacy tournament scene". There are dozens of other stores in the area that hold Legacy events, to say nothing of other large stores across the country.

You're discounting the effect that providing prize money and streamed tournaments has on the scene. Without high profile tournaments and coverage, legacy would lose relevance very, very fast. I mean, how many people give a shit about vintage now? I bet the number is staggering, dozens even. Without SCG, legacy would be in a lot of trouble, and I don't think anybody who's being honest with themselves can really deny that.

This is complete conjecture, and while it may happen, SCG has strengthened its commitment to Legacy in the last year by replacing all non-Legacy Sunday Opens with Legacy Sunday Opens for 2014. No one but the employees at SCG can know with certainty what their future plans are, but simply asserting something to match your assumptions does not make your case more compelling.

I'm well aware of SCG's commitment, I'm saying it won't be the norm for the long term. In fact I specifically chose the words "as early as next year", because SCG has made a commitment to legacy for 2014. But don't kid yourself that they would stick with the format if modern proved to be a more profitable venture. Modern likely already has a larger playerbase, and if it stays on its current trajectory, will eventually overtake legacy through sheer power of numbers. According to the latest figures, there are an estimated 12 million people playing the game now, and roughly 300,000 of each revised dual in existence. That's 75,000 playsets for a total of 750,000 across all ten duals. How long until modern goes past this figure? There's a glut of new players that have just experienced (or are about to experience) their first rotation, and clamouring for fetches to be reprinted so that they can get into modern. If even 10% of all players buy in (and they will, modern is being pushed very, very hard by Wizards), they'll already have cruised past the upper limit of what legacy is able to support. With consistent reprints, it's pretty inconceivable that modern won't replace legacy in the long term.

Many players have asked why SCG doesn't hold Modern tournaments on various forums, as well as on SCG's feedback page itself. This is not surprising, since a very vocal subset of players were convinced that SCG was going to abandon Legacy support in favor of Modern two years ago, and they considered the double Standard, Team Sealed, etc. Sunday Opens as part of a progression towards that end. When SCG announced that they were going back to Standard/Legacy Opens only, these players commented on the announcement page.

I'm not talking about older players, I'm talking about new players. Once demand reaches critical mass, SCG will absolutely replace legacy. If you can't see this, you're fooling yourself.

Even more players have applauded SCG for further committing to Legacy.

And I'm one of them. You don't seem to realise that I'm on the side of legacy in all of this.

The production, sale, and use (in tournaments) of counterfeits are both illegal and immoral.

See my previous post, this has nothing to do with morality.

[TsumiBand]

The RIAA and MPAA certainly have. Zero sum economics is almost as bad as the hot, salty Reaganomics currently trickling down our faces and into the carpet.

I hope everyone could tell I was being a snarky butthole.

Zero-sum econ is one of the stupidest fucking things I've ever heard of. Money I spend at the bar is not money Best Buy 'lost'. Trust me, that was always beer money.

[lordofthepit]

Price is determined using both supply and demand, and you can't have a price without some form of demand. The number of cards in circulation constitutes the supply, and the playability of a card constitutes the vast bulk of its demand, with collectibility coming in at a distant second. If you have a vast supply, even the most highly sought after card will be cheap, but this isn't what we're talking about here. The cards we're discussing are limited in supply, and their demand comes from the fact that they are the best cards at what they do, in what is currently the premier competitive format in the game. Without playability, most cards are effectively worthless, as most every card in the game outside of a small percentage actually is. I honestly don't understand how people can be refuting this point, because it's basic -- we're talking about the exception when we discuss expensive cards, because the vast majority that have ever been printed are barely worth more than the cardboard they're printed on. They're not expensive because they're not playable.

Case in point: strip mine is practically worthless, while wasteland is now $100. If strip mine were playable in legacy, it would be a 4-of in most decks. Since it's banned, it has no playability, and thus no demand. It's effectively worthless because it isn't legal in any relevant format.



You're discounting the effect that providing prize money and streamed tournaments has on the scene. Without high profile tournaments and coverage, legacy would lose relevance very, very fast. I mean, how many people give a shit about vintage now? I bet the number is staggering, dozens even. Without SCG, legacy would be in a lot of trouble, and I don't think anybody who's being honest with themselves can really deny that.



I'm well aware of SCG's commitment, I'm saying it won't be the norm for the long term. In fact I specifically chose the words "as early as next year", because SCG has made a commitment to legacy for 2014. But don't kid yourself that they would stick with the format if modern proved to be a more profitable venture. Modern likely already has a larger playerbase, and if it stays on its current trajectory, will eventually overtake legacy through sheer power of numbers. According to the latest figures, there are an estimated 12 million people playing the game now, and roughly 300,000 of each revised dual in existence. That's 75,000 playsets for a total of 750,000 across all ten duals. How long until modern goes past this figure? There's a glut of new players that have just experienced (or are about to experience) their first rotation, and clamouring for fetches to be reprinted so that they can get into modern. If even 10% of all players buy in (and they will, modern is being pushed very, very hard by Wizards), they'll already have cruised past the upper limit of what legacy is able to support. With consistent reprints, it's pretty inconceivable that modern won't replace legacy in the long term.



I'm not talking about older players, I'm talking about new players. Once demand reaches critical mass, SCG will absolutely replace legacy. If you can't see this, you're fooling yourself.



And I'm one of them. You don't seem to realise that I'm on the side of legacy in all of this.



See my previous post, this has nothing to do with morality.

I appreciate your response. I do agree with some of what you're saying, but I disagree with the extent of the conclusions you are reaching, and it is because of that disagreement that we have different opinions on Legacy's ability to survive without SCG. (I think Legacy would be significantly hampered but still continue at the LGS scene.)

[JanoschEausH]

Sure, here it is!

Sobre unas Nuevas Falsificaciones y Conspiranoias Varias, by César "CHaPuZaS" Fernández

The main differences were that these fakes were better. It's weigh was pretty similar, it felt and looked more like a legit card, but in the end, those also were distinguishable.

Thank you very much! I have one question: Do the 2012 Fakes pass the Light-Test? For me comparing size + light test seems to be the most adequate method right now.

[the Thin White Duke]

I hope everyone could tell I was being a snarky butthole.

Zero-sum econ is one of the stupidest fucking things I've ever heard of. Money I spend at the bar is not money Best Buy 'lost'. Trust me, that was always beer money.

+1 TsumiBand

I don't want this to turn into a "discussion" on the idiocy that is zero-sum economics (why do you kids even go to college these days? why go into such debt for the privilege of attending these zombie factories?) Anyway...

Can someone please explain how I'm stealing $$ from Wizards if I'm purchasing out of print cards from a counterfeiter? Last I knew, Wizards does not sell singles directly.
And why are we sooo concerned with Wizard's bottom line???? They didn't make Magic! Barack Obama and the federal government made Magic! Hey Richard Garfield, you didn't make Magic!! Your government did. How dare you make a profit!!
(that's being snarky.)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Isn't Magic WotC's? They may do whatever they want to do, e.g. not print the old cards. Isnt' it their right?

And... yes, maybe they lose money by not printing boosters with original duals, but otoh, maybe the fact that they don't sell boosters with original duals is the reason why their boosters with Call of the Herd, Goblin Piledriver, Skullclamp, Horizon Canopy and Emrakul sold/sell. I think that WotC knows better than us what brings them money.

But I still think that RL is stupidity and that the reprints should have been plenty.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

I think the most important question is if the cards are sleeve playable. If they're practically undetectable from across the table while playing a game, that's as good as they have to be for people to want them.

[Barook]

+1 TsumiBand

I don't want this to turn into a "discussion" on the idiocy that is zero-sum economics (why do you kids even go to college these days? why go into such debt for the privilege of attending these zombie factories?) Anyway...

Can someone please explain how I'm stealing $$ from Wizards if I'm purchasing out of print cards from a counterfeiter? Last I knew, Wizards does not sell singles directly.
And why are we sooo concerned with Wizard's bottom line???? They didn't make Magic! Barack Obama and the federal government made Magic! Hey Richard Garfield, you didn't make Magic!! Your government did. How dare you make a profit!!
(that's being snarky.)

You don't "steal" money from Wizards, you "steal" money from secondary market traders. But by that twisted logic, secondary market traders also "steal" money from you when they jack up the staple prices for no reason.

[Stephan/]

I think the most important question is if the cards are sleeve playable. If they're practically undetectable from across the table while playing a game, that's as good as they have to be for people to want them.

Why is this so important?

I really don't care whether my opponent is playing proxies or not (even in tournaments) - MtG shouldn't be a status symbol. I just don't want to get scammed when someone tries to sell me fakes as real ones.
Why do people want to buy close to indistinguishable fakes/proxies for "personal use at home" when they can just use pencil and paper? What's the intension?

[Zombie]

Why is this so important?

I really don't care whether my opponent is playing proxies or not (even in tournaments) - MtG shouldn't be a status symbol. I just don't want to get scammed when someone tries to sell me fakes as real ones.
Why do people want to buy close to indistinguishable fakes/proxies for "personal use at home" when they can just use pencil and paper? What's the intension?

Because pencil and paper / marker'd Plains proxies look absolutely hideous. Though a good printer and some patience get good slip-in-front-of-bad-cards style proxies you may not even notice as fake at a glance, so they don't ruin the play experience. Much better when you can just glance at a card to identify it, makes playing the game less stressful.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

My buddies and I proxy decks literally all the time for various reasons, mainly for play testing reasons. We use my (or our public library) printer and use magiccard.info proxies to do so. I've never wanted better proxies. I put basic lands in sleeves and slide the cut-outs in over them. Works fine. I can proxy 3 full 75 card lists with one set of ink cartridges, the quality is very high and the printer is run of the mill. If you want good proxies just do it that way. No need to reward illegitimate business practices when there are other, just as rewarding ways to reach the same end: non-tournament legal proxies. I see no reason for wanting more than that.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Stinky-Dinkins]

So on what grounds do you argue that it is somehow immoral for people to buy a few fakes to play with their mates? Because -- as I've already mentioned -- from a utilitarian perspective (a moral school of thought, fyi), obtaining these fakes for personal use is a perfectly moral thing to do.

Oh fucking please. Not one person on Earth is paying those prices (plus international shipping costs) to use these as proxies to play with his buddies. You could just write "Jace TMS" in marker over a basic land, or print out a copy from your printer if you wanted it to have rules text look pretty, if you wanted proxies to use at a table with your buddies... Which is what everyone who uses proxies in this way does. These are only being used for two purposes:

1: To resell them to unsuspecting people at exorbitant markups under the pretense of them being legitimate.

2: To use them for tournament play under the pretense that they're legitimate.

To pretend as though anyone will use these as proxies for tabletop play with their friends is ludicrous. I'm glad these fakes are so easily detectable, fucking obnoxious.

[Illusions]

Oh fucking please. Not one person on Earth is paying those prices (plus international shipping costs) to use these as proxies to play with his buddies. You could just write "Jace TMS" in marker over a basic land, or print out a copy from your printer if you wanted it to have rules text look pretty, if you wanted proxies to use at a table with your buddies... Which is what everyone who uses proxies in this way does. These are only being used for two purposes:

1: To resell them to unsuspecting people at exorbitant markups under the pretense of them being legitimate.

2: To use them for tournament play under the pretense that they're legitimate.

To pretend as though anyone will use these as proxies for tabletop play with their friends is ludicrous. I'm glad these fakes are so easily detectable, fucking obnoxious.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that you knew everybody's intentions and motivations for buying these cards. Are you God or Santa Claus? Also, why do you care where your opponent got his or her wizard-paper from if you get to play the game against more people, more regularly? The only obnoxious thing about it is your attitude, which is based almost entirely on unfounded conjecture. If your playing experience is that connected to the worth of your cardboard, it might be an idea to get out of legacy while the going is good. SCG will get out at some stage, and the prices will all come tumbling down. It's gravity. Counterfeits are not what you should be afraid of.

I appreciate your response. I do agree with some of what you're saying, but I disagree with the extent of the conclusions you are reaching, and it is because of that disagreement that we have different opinions on Legacy's ability to survive without SCG. (I think Legacy would be significantly hampered but still continue at the LGS scene.)

Thanks for being civil about it, and I understand your reservations. I'm also in favour of reprints, but at this stage, my deep fear is that WotC were dumb enough to settle out of court on a lawsuit regarding the reserved list. I think it's the only rational explanation for why they haven't reprinted the cards, and why their reasons for doing so are unable to be disclosed to the players. I never bought into the whole promissory estoppel thing, but if they settled on a previous lawsuit, it would provide a precedent they would need to honour in the event that the list were repealed.

Now, I'm not saying this is right, but it's the simplest explanation that makes sense to me. What's scarier is that if it is right, then that's effectively it; reprints are not coming, end of story. I don't think anyone seriously believes that the format can sustain itself on $200 lands, and even the fact that it's gotten this far is remarkable. Nevertheless, it's completely unsustainable in the long term, and no one is benefiting from it, not even the players who want eternally high prices. And unlike counterfeits, these prices genuinely do scare me, because I believe they do have the potential to kill the format.

[mcfarland]

Oh fucking please. Not one person on Earth is paying those prices (plus international shipping costs) to use these as proxies to play with his buddies. You could just write "Jace TMS" in marker over a basic land, or print out a copy from your printer if you wanted it to have rules text look pretty, if you wanted proxies to use at a table with your buddies... Which is what everyone who uses proxies in this way does. These are only being used for two purposes:

1: To resell them to unsuspecting people at exorbitant markups under the pretense of them being legitimate.

2: To use them for tournament play under the pretense that they're legitimate.

To pretend as though anyone will use these as proxies for tabletop play with their friends is ludicrous. I'm glad these fakes are so easily detectable, fucking obnoxious.

Calm down, cowboy. It's not ludicrous. I'm doing exactly what you describe.

I've printed my own "high-quality" proxies to use casually for years, and I'm not the only person that does. I own a high-end printer, and I don't want to play with a sharpie'd basic because it takes me out of the experience of playing with my buddies - I'm a fan of how cards look aesthetically, but I'm not doing to drop $250 on another Underground for my third EDH deck.

Printing my own proxies was a lot of work - from scanning/finding really hi-res images to acquiring card stock that is decent enough to feel undetectable when shuffling in sleeves. I didn't print with backs because I had no reason to do so, but the fronts are pretty much perfect from more than a few inches away. They took a lot of time (and a little money) to make them the way I wanted them to be. I enjoy the results, but I'd quickly pass up on the labor and time if I could buy comparable proxies for a few dollars.

Yes, for tabletop play with my friends. Or more accurately, casual games at my LGS on my way home from work. Not everyone who has/wants/uses fake cards is a villain.

[Stinky-Dinkins]

Are you God or Santa Claus?

I'm Santa Claus.

Also, why do you care where your opponent got his or her wizard-paper from if you get to play the game against more people, more regularly? .

Did I say I cared? I personally couldn't care less if people use proxies - I do all the time. I print them out for free and tape them to basic lands.... I wouldn't even care if they were allowed in tournament play. If someone can't afford, say, a Jace TMS but needs it for a deck, I wouldn't mind at all if they used a proxy instead - I say go for it. I was just listing the two primary ways in which these proxies will be used, to pretend as though the main usage of these fakes will be people using them as pretty proxies to play with their buddies is fucking absurd. The people that will pay those prices to get fakes shipped in from China so they can use them as attractive proxies will account for about .00000001% of these sales, the vast majority of people aren't going to pay those prices just for "fake" cards in kitchen table games when they can make high quality proxies for free using their printers.

I do, however, have a problem with scumbags reselling these fakes as legitimate cards for hugely inflated prices - and people will absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, do exactly that. Hell, some of the people playing with these in tournaments might not even know they're playing with fakes... if they're not knowledgeable enough about corner shape and printing patterns. Every sale that website makes supports that practice whether you want to acknowledge it or not - if you buy 100 dollars worth of counterfeit cards so you can use them casually with your buddies you are funding the business that also just sent 100 dollars worth of counterfeit cards to the guy who will sell them to some unfortunate sucker under the pretense that they're legitimate. I'm wicked sorry that I offended your delicate sensibilities when I called these Chinese fakes obnoxious, but they are.

[Illusions]

Did I say I cared? I personally couldn't care less if people use proxies - I do all the time. I print them out for free and tape them to basic lands.... I wouldn't even care if they were allowed in tournament play. If someone can't afford, say, a Jace TMS but needs it for a deck, I wouldn't mind at all if they used a proxy instead - I say go for it. I was just listing the two primary ways in which these proxies will be used, to pretend as though the main usage of these fakes will be people using them as pretty proxies to play with their buddies is fucking absurd. The people that will pay those prices to get fakes shipped in from China so they can use them as attractive proxies will account for about .00000001% of these sales, the vast majority of people aren't going to pay those prices just for "fake" cards in kitchen table games when they can make high quality proxies for free using their printers.

Again, you have no evidence for this assertion. The game already has numerous legal proxies in the form of championship decks, and non-tournament-legal force of wills go for $20 as we speak. It's not inconceivable that people would pay more for cards that don't have a gaudy gold border and different back. In fact, I would estimate that the vast majority of sales will go to players who have some form of disposable income (enough to play modern) but are unable to justify buying into legacy. If they want to play these in their EDH decks, or play legacy with their mates, that's actually a good thing for those respective formats.

I do, however, have a problem with scumbags reselling these fakes as legitimate cards for hugely inflated prices - and people will absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, do exactly that. Hell, some of the people playing with these in tournaments might not even know they're playing with fakes... if they're not knowledgeable enough about corner shape and printing patterns. Every sale that website makes supports that practice whether you want to acknowledge it or not - if you buy 100 dollars worth of counterfeit cards so you can use them casually with your buddies you are funding the business that also just sent 100 dollars worth of counterfeit cards to the guy who will sell them to some unfortunate sucker under the pretense that they're legitimate. I'm wicked sorry that I offended your delicate sensibilities when I called these Chinese fakes obnoxious, but they are.

And... so do I? I'm not condoning the fact that some people will sell these as legitimate (though I don't have a problem with them being sold as fully-disclosed fakes), but it isn't my place to protect idiots from themselves. You should always know what it is that you're buying, and if you want the genuine article, you should know how to distinguish it from fakes, especially if you're considering paying $200 per land. This applies to anything, not just cards. I mean, your whole argument is effectively conjecture regarding the intentions of the people buying these cards, and that a few gullible people might inadvertently purchase them, thinking them the real thing. Sure, it's probable there are a few dickheads out there that will do this, but if it's a choice between more accessibility, players, and games, and preventing a few people from making poor decisions, I'll choose the former every time. Even then, if the cards get so good that they're effectively indistinguishable from the real thing, then there's no need to worry, because at that stage, they are the real thing.

[Dzra]

Because -- as I've already mentioned -- from a utilitarian perspective (a moral school of thought, fyi), obtaining these fakes for personal use is a perfectly moral thing to do.

Honestly, I didn't read most of what you wrote. I sort of have a headache and am not in the mood for a lot of what I suspect is rationalizing (I apologize if I'm incorrect). However, I will say that buying counterfeits is not actually moral according to a utilitarian ideal. You are buying cheap fakes for your own personal benefit. Not only does this not contribute to the group as a whole in any way, but it actively hurts the group. Buying counterfeits directly results in the printing of more counterfeits; the eventual result of which is that Magic the Gathering can no longer be supported by Wizards, SCG, and local gaming stores. Buying counterfeits benefits the buyer (short-term at least) in that they've gotten cards for cheap but is at the expense of everyone else who plays Magic. That is not utilitarianism.

I suppose you might prattle on about how counterfeits bring down the price of cards and how cheaper cards are better for everyone, kumbaya. That might be reasonable if that were the actual endgame. Unfortunately, the real endgame of excellent counterfeits permeating the market is that Magic disappears because it ceases to be profitable for Hasbro and gaming stores to support.