It's more like knock-off clothing than currency. People who are going to buy Gucci bags are not the same people that want the fakes. MTG community is way too small to even compare to clothing brands, so even that is way off. But lol @ using currency analogies. How stupid.
The Chinese will work with you to make anything you may want. If one wanted to they could contact and work with them to produce fakes that pass all the main methods of testing. The older magic cards printed in the early 1990's are easy enough to reproduce. Wizards knows this and that is why they are rolling out holo stamps.
Originally Posted by Cavius The Great
I keep telling you that if I buy the proxies second hand, I'm not supporting the counterfeiter, you haven't responded to that point.
Yes, I want the proxies to look passable, if not undetectable. So freaking what? Why does that matter if I'm not selling or trading them.
Because you've been putting words into people's mouths and making blank assumptions. When someone makes a good counter argument for what you have written you beat around the bush trying to make yourself seem innocent. If you buy counterfeit cards from anywhere you are hurting the game overall, end of story.
I'm with everyone from the last page, this thread has served its purpose and is just spiraling into the abyss at this point.
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly."Got any trade boogas?"
Do you understand what "demand" is? It's not hard to figure out that if people are willing to purchase counterfeits then that creates demand for counterfeits. If you buy your fake cards from Jain and she bought hers from Billy and he got his from eBay where it was listed by a Chinese counterfeiter then that still creates the exact same demand as if you went to China yourself and paid for them with cash.
So you basically repeated my point (who would buy expensive duals if there are undistinguishible proxies?) and tried to sound like you oppose my point? Wow! What was that? A race for the Great Source Quotes thread?
Yes.
Not in Standard product, please, unless they make it somehow pre-banned in the format. I think that occasional Legacy decks with FTV Demonic Tutors are annoying enoguh, now imagine all the little boys repeatedly DQed because their decks use Savannahs they pulled from the Bored of Gods boosters and thought they are Type II legal.
This.
And this.
Btw... ESG, you should change your custom user title to "Loses to false False Cure".
And this.
And... this.
Do you have protection from display?
People wrote dozens of arguments why fakes hurt the community and the game itself, but you're still repeating over and over your only argument "but it doesn't hurt gaming experience". Yes, we know it. It's how the proxy works, thanks for enlkightning us. But unfortunately, we're not discussing proxies but fakes; I hope you understand the difference. (Btw, feel free to make a different thread about proxies, but sry, this one is omnly for the discussion on fakes.)
So, what are the most reasonable arguments against Chinese fakes? They may be sold as the real thing to bambbozle new/young players. They may undermine prices of real cards (do you realize that their only reason for existance is that they are cheaper than originals, don't you?) and thus have a potential to reduce the value of anyone's collection of real cards. Do you understand it, or do you need it in some other language?
And, my dear friend, I really don't care of any anti-hoarders arguments. I don't like hoarders and speculators, because they (and boneheads of WotC) caused the immense rise of prices. But you asked how the fakes may harm the value of real cards, so I'm giving you the example for the third time. If you don't understand that the money you'll send to the counterfeiters will be somehow used to scam little kids who'd buy fake JTMS for 100 Euros just to be DQed, then no one can help you.
I fear that you've tried in vain. But I may be surprised...
This.
Methinks.
Baseless assumptions.
Learn to read.
So, the whole argument boils down to "I don't want to look like a scrub in front of my stupid friends"? Oh, I see. Now THAT's really the reason why I should risk my cards to lose value!
Shit, you're like a jammed gramophone. You're still repeating how this doesn't affeect gameplay, but we all know it, thanks for informing us how proxies work. But what the fakes may or may not harm are the non-gameplay aspects of game, like financial value of cards, support of WotC/lgs, they might be used to scam people. Are you getting the message or not?
Because every time somehow tries to tell you how the fakes affect the non-gameplay aspects of MtG, you're still repeating "but they do not affect gameplay" nonsense you blather over and over again and again.
Either way, I'm done with you.
Hello,
This game is not comparable with stamps. Because we own cards to play with them not to get money out of them. If you think otherwise stop playing a game which is meant to be played and not collected.
Based on this high prices hurt the market and therefore the scoundary retailers are the ones who are damaging the market. I hope that the counterfeits reduce the prices to a reasonable price again.
So the fakes will help to get a healthy market back and this hopefully will lead to a increasing comunity.
Don't get me wrong this is a terrible way of helping the market and I would prefer another but I think to find one like reducing the price on our own we have to quit thinking about the loss of value and start thinking what can help us to have a intact format withou SCG support.
Best regards
Teveshszat
I'm sorry but Magic, the Gathering is a collectable card game. It's a game that's ALSO a collectable. That's in part why cards have rarity and why there are vanity versions of cards like foils. Each player can approach the game however he or she chooses, but you can't just ignore that while you might not enjoy the collectable aspect of MTG, other players do. A player can be a collector at the same time.
Ok, I have done immense work (no need to thank me) and collected all the necessary info from all the unneeded spam about boxes of duals thou sitteth upon, black lotus diet, living conditions in China, etc. I'd love if some moderator makes something out of it, e.g. if he starts (and insta-locks) a separate sticky thread made only of these posts:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post780024
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post780049
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post780053
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post780101
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post780137
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post780150
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post780417
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post780506
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post780737
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post780880
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post780944
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post780976
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post781290
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post781387
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post781487
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post781567
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post781697
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post781741
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post781831
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post781937
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post782049
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post782458
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post782532
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post782733
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post782825
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post782929
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post783273
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post785861
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post785950
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post786017
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post786035
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post786040
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post786041
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post786129
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post787195
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post788001
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post788149
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post791145
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post791940
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post791948
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post791961
Last edited by Bed Decks Palyer; 02-14-2014 at 05:19 AM.
Actually its marketed as a trading card game, no longer marketed as collectible.
Magic is comparable to collecting stamps. But in reality you only need/use the common stamps, not the rare ones.
Imagine you can send certain letters only with a mauritius..
Thats the difference.
We need a widespread product to use/play.
Aside from the attitude, I respect Bed Decks Palyer's case. Here are my arguments to his arguments directed at me.
Although he asks, "who would buy real cards when there are passable cards?" I would tell him that he would, along with many other people, especially the people who have this moral crusade telling me what what I am doing is wrong. You can't honestly believe that people will stop buying real cards. That's such a ridiculous assumption. By the way I already addressed this, people like owning real cards, especially collectors. Many people like supporting Wizards, people like supporting their local game shops, some people don't like shopping online, etc. I'm buying fake cards, because I can't afford real cards.
You state that the most harmful potentially consequence of passable proxies is that they may be sold or traded as real cards. I already said that was terrible, but I'm not planning on doing that. That has nothing to do with me. If you really want, you can say I'm indirectly supporting this regardless, because I'm supporting the creation of the fake cards (even if I'm buying them second hand), but it's a really bad argument. I already explained this by drawing an analogy to people who support evil companies like Wal Mart and Nike that do way worse things things to people and small businesses. Even though people buy products from Wal Mart and Nike, you aren't going to judge them all and say they are supporting union suppression, child labor, monopolies and small business suppression. You certainly aren't going to ask everyone to stop buying products from Wal Mart and Nike.
You talk about how you are worried your trading cards will lose value. Provide some actual empirical evidence that is going to happen. It's certainly not going to happen if I spend $100 on fake cards and never sell or trade them. If I buy fake cards, and I don't sell them or buy them,you aren't directly affected.
Finally, the fact that you concede that your crusade against passable proxies has nothing to do with gameplay further proves you like arbitrary financial barriers to entry. You would prefer for games to be determined by access to wealth rather than skill or gameplay, because you are paranoid that if I buy some fake cards I'm not going to sell or trade, suddenly your cards are going to be worthless (a claim you haven't even tried to prove).
I'm not quite sure why you think this is a bad argument. You understand that the majority of products (including Magic cards themselves) are bought via distribution channels, not through the producer/supplier themselves. If everyone in the world buys counterfeit cards through a third-party, does that lessen the problem anymore? No because it increases the supply out there which is bad.
There are many folks who wish the barriers to entry was less but we don't have any direct control over that. Many folks have indirectly tried (lobbying Wizards, encouraging proxy tournaments, etc.) but you're in favor of bypassing through illegal entries. And unfortunately there are pastimes that have monetary (or other) barriers to entry besides skill. Wake up.
If you do not mind me coming between the two of you, I'll chime in.
It's more than just the barrier to entry. I think most sane people want legacy staples to be cheaper, but stores still need to profit and offer nice prizes as incentive for people to play.
I think duals should be expensive to an extent to make winning tournaments worthwhile. But $180 underground seas is not sustainable and terrible for the health of the format.
Cheap as dirt fake decks($100) is not good for the format and $3k decks are not good either. Whatever finally pushes Wotc to mass print duals, fows and the like needs to come soon; and perhaps these fakes could be the final stepping stone.
Why should I be concerned of you and your inability to play cards? I have enough worries with my own cards...
you keep bringing the Nike. Dude, you know why the kids work in their factories? Because they (and their parents) have two choices: to work there or starve. Could you do us a favor? Instead of your moral crusade, simply fly to Malaysia/China and give money to one of the kids in the factory so that (s)he may visit school and not starve.
Btw, your point of view is so post-modern, euro-americano-atlantican, so whitemen's, I can't even believe what I'm reading. You know that just sixty years ago it was pretty usual for kids to work even in your country? You know that your own (grand)grandfather worked on a field or in some workshop or maybe he hunted rabbits with airgun since his six years? Just because white continents rose above the level of overall poverty doesn't mean that it's the same everywhere else.
What? I wrote I'm not going to risk it. Do your experiments elsewhere.
I don't like the arbitrary financial barrier. I'd wish that the cards were cheaper, but not at the cost of fakes that bring many unnecessary troubles.
Btw, do you know why the ppl of your casual group don't want to play with proxies/fakes? Becasue it worsens their gameplay experience. Wanna know why and how? That's easy. They got decks that they built, maybe even expensive ones, at least considering particular budget of the particualr player. Now, this leads to predictable and stable metagame (google that word just in case). Changes in that meta are slow, they happen at the same pace at which they get funds to acquire new cards.
Now, when you show up and bring proxies (and thanks to their zero cost you may build dozen of decks, while they need to plan ahead purchases, limit their decks, etc.), you simply destabilize the metagame (though it may be a kitchen table one, but it doesn't matter). They might not even know what's happening, but they might feel this on unconscious level. And once they allow the proxies for you, it won't take much time to allow them for everyone else. That's when their until-now-stable metagame (a) begins to oscilate or (b) collapses into dozens of BlackLotus.dec. This is how your "harmless" proxies negatively affect their "gaming experience", when you're so erect from the phrase. You may argue that metagame doesn't cohere with gaming experience, but in this case I have no more words for you and just resort to god ol' principle about trolls and not feeding them.
Now, I expect you to please us with more "white knights' crusade", "unhurt gameplay", "evil Nike" and "baseless assumptions" parroting. Ok dude, enjoy your fakes. Ignore list.
It's a bad argument for two reasons. First, not everyone in the world is going to by counterfeits through a third party. Second, just because you directly or indirectly support a business model that might be doing something unscrupulous doesn't mean you are doing something morally wrong. I'll stress my Nike and WalMart example again. Would you judge and shame anyone who bought from these businesses and claim that are responsible for child labor, union suppression, and small business suppression?
MTG doesn't have to have a steep monetary barrier to entry, and it won't when I buy my fake cards. I'll finally be able to have good mana fixing in EDH without having to spend hundreds of dollars.
Bed Decks Palyer, let me get this straight, it's bad and elitist that I'm against children's sweat shops that exploit families? BTW, my Great grandfather did work in a field (he was a black sharecropper in the south) and I'm pretty sure he didn't do it with a big grin on his face. Why don't you tell people who buy packs at Wal Mart that they are part of the problem LGS's face, and they are wrong because they are supporting a business that harms LGS's? Because it would be a stupid argument. You are judging and shaming me because I am potentially supporting a factory that makes cards fake cards, but you refuse to judge and shame people who support businesses and factories that do things that are much worse. How is that not hypocritical?
You say "I'm not going to take the risk." This is more of that baseless claim nonsense. Counterfeiting isn't new. Counterfeiting trading cards isn't new, it doesn't bankrupt companies, and it doesn't make real cards worthless. You are attacking and judging people on the basis of something you have no evidence of, and historically, evidence shows that your theory is wrong.
The reason some of my friends are against proxies is they feel entitled, they believe they should win more games than people who spend less money on MTG. It doesn't have anything to do with the meta. Proxies are just a substitution for money. The meta would fluctuate if I had a lot of money and decided to buy a $3000 deck, but they would be totally fine with that. It's just arbitrary nonsense.
I will enjoy my fakes, I won't sell them, I won't trade them. I won't hurt you. I will enjoy being able to have a similar experience to someone who either has been playing for decades, or someone who is willing to spend thousands of dollars on cardboard. Hate all you want.
Sigh. Do you understand that Magic the Gathering is a copyright-protected product and such it is ILLEGAL for another to reproduce it and sell it? It isn't about scruples or morality. It is ILLEGAL. There is no "might be doing something unscrupulous", they are doing something ILLEGAL.
It's not illegal for me to buy counterfeits from China. It's not illegal for me to buy counterfeits second hand from Americans.
But I guess because it's ILLEGAL, it's bad. I guess because it's ILLEGAL to jaywalk at 3AM when there are no cars, so you should judge me for doing so.
I guess I've gotten you to admit what they are doing is illegal. Or buying from a third-party doesn't make much of a difference. I'll count those as minor wins. I'm not judging you, I'm trying to explain your actions has reprecussions for the rest of us. You say that you don't plan on selling or trading them, but what's the guarantee that is even true or will be true forever? What if someone steals your cards or you decide to sell out?
Let's say that it's true you won't ever release them to the wild but so what? The prescence of these degrades the confidence of these in the open market thus people will only feel comfortable buying these from reputable vendors. Demand goes up, so does price which exacerberates the problem you were hoping to "solve".
I think this is a web board for discussing Magic: The Gathering. It's probably safe to assume that there are many more important problems in the world that people should deal with. It's also probably safe to say that there are many better ways to deal with any problem than argue about it on a web board.
Knowingly buying counterfeits is supporting bad people and doing a bad thing for Magic. Doing so means you are putting your own self-interest in owning something you cannot afford over what is good for the Magic community. It's just that simple.
Oh, and yet a small note:
I find it amusing that a guy who selfishly wishes to play the decks without investing the same money as others had to, is trying to give us lessons in ethics, see "evil Nike" and such. Someone inform him that he can't have it both ways, he can't be openly selfish and then pretend how he cares of poor children in factories.
I work in a factory. I work in thelve-hour shifts, I work on night-shifts, I'm taking extra shifts to feed my family, I save money for my three little children so that they have some starting point once they grow up. And even with all this burden, I'm still able to build a Legacy deck or two, heck, I even had a nice collection which I started to dissolve only few years ago when I realized that MtG is out of my budget. I play this game since 1996 and I searched for and traded cards for my friends since 1997, always asking only for the minimum fee that was nearly never worthy the time and effort I spent digging the many obscure cards they wished for, doing this long before internet changed all this corvee into a "click this button" wellness&relax. I lent cards and decks to my friends if I was able to do so, and I did it until a friend of mine lost a USD 300 worthy of cards which was the moment I hardened my heart and ever since then I stay mute to the cries of 35 y/o Aryan babies that don't have their toys to play Magical Collectible Cardgame while 5/6 of world is starving.
So come at me with your moral crusade how I'm evildoer as I don't want to support fakers and their cocksuckers. Because yeah, "fakez rockz" and they are greater good. Esp. those fake JTMS for the price of 1/4 of real ones. Really, this reminds me some guys of our old group who CMYK-xeroxed Breezkeepers, Uktabi Orangutans and Boomerangs so that they "don't need to waste money for real cards", all the while purchasing those ugly copies of five-crowns cards for 100 CZK per sheet with 8 cards.
Seriously, if Engels would live today, his most famous work would be The Part Played by Magic: the Gathering in the Transition from Human to Ape.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
