Yes
No
Sorry I couldn't wade through your fucking text wall. Your statement above was pretty absolute and was absurd, my urge to reply was strong. Way to reign it in but still fall short a few posts later. Even a density of creatures in a deck of 20-25 wouldn't always want SoTF for the other reasons I mentioned. Heavy green commitment. Too slow etc. You're reaching now. SotF would be a fine card but no better than the other backbreaking cards that get run in Legacy now.
Yeah that's my argument. In your opinion the following creaure heavy midrange decks:Originally Posted by Megadeus
-Bant Aggro
-Elves!
-Maverick
-4c Deathrite Midrange decks (basically RBGSA revisited)
-Junk
-UG Madness (this is not played right now, but it would be played again after unbanning)
-edit: the weird BUG Nic fit build with lots of creatures and little disruption (can't recall deck name, probably is BUG Pod, it was in a couple SCG top8s)
-edit: MOST
Wouldn't instant switch to SotF if it was legal? In my opinion yes, they would.
Yeah, merfolk would not run survival, I didn't think I had to specify that.
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I'm not certain that Elves would automatically switch to survival. Bant Aggro, probably would change a bit, maverick probably would change as well, and Nic Fit decks would love it. Junk may not use it though unless they shifted their strategy. A lot of junk decks are creature light anyway. Deathblade barely runs green and would most certainly need to shift up their approach if they were to run this card. Basically with a lot of these decks you cannot simply slot Survival in and it automatically be better.
Which part of the initial disclaimer ''creature heavy midrange decks'' is not clear exactly?
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So you made a list of creature heavy midrange decks, I said yes or no to whether or not they would play survival without drastic changes, and then what? I said that probably half of those decks currently probably would not immediately slot in SotF without drastic changes. I don't think Elves would even want it that badly at this point over GSZ.
I quoted you. I understand you stepped back a few paces in some post 6 down from the one I read.
I think Green Sun's Zenith is better in most of those decks. You seem deaf, dumb and blind to the fact that it didn't exist when SotF was legal. Certainly in elves where Survival is a complete brick compared to GSZ or Natural Order. I don't even know what the 4th deck means. I guess Maverick could play it, but I think GSZ is better in many cases -- maybe split the 2. Maverick I think would rather cast Thalia on turn 2 on 2 lands than 1G: Do Nothing Pass the Turn. But I think Survival would have a place in Maverick. Especially being able to chuck extra legends late game. I'm not playing it in Junk ... it's too slow, I want to disrupt your hand and play my Confidant or a 3/4 Goyf, or if you chose to play it in Gbw you'd be doing it at the expense of threats or GSZ which is just better as you don't need a creature in hand and you don't have to cast the creature.
Nothing like show and telling yawgmoth's bargain or LED or Brainstorm but it would be a good card.
SotF was around for a decade and it was fine.
If you aren't devoting 4-5 cards to a terrible slow graveyard dependent combo with it it wouldn't be worth playing over Zenith in most cases. Again the thread is survival back in the format. I think it's clear that it would be a fine card but nothing on the power level of some of the other staples.
I think many of you are forgetting how fast the format was when it was legal compared to now.
It's true that I feel it was banned before people became better at hating on it but I don't think I'm alone in thinking that these these midrange decks would get pushed out of the format in favor of vengevine/ooze combo.
Therefore, who cares if they would run it or not?
"I made a Redguard that looks like Kimbo Slice. He wrecks peoples' shit. And dragons." - Bignasty197
You fuckers made its price jump up $2 since the thread was started
I'm not even sure Elves or Jund would want it. Survival is awfully slow for Elves; they'd have to choose between Survival and GSZ, and I believe acceleration is more important than midgame card quality for them. As far as Jund is concerned, I feel like they are better equipped to fight Survival rather than use it (Deathrite, Abrupt Decay, ability to easily SB Ooze).
Yes. UG Survival was the first build that broke out, but was eventually replaced with GW Survival for two reasons: it was more resilient to hate (ie it doesn't require Survival to function) and it was better at fighting other Survival decks. It wasn't long after GW Survival became a thing that Survival was banned. Would GW still be the strongest with Sneak and Show being such a strong threat? It's hard to say.
Like others have said, I think you are vastly overestimating the penetration of Survival. It will replace GSZ in Maverick (which will likely be the primary Survival build) and it will possibly create some GWr, GWb, and GWu offshoots. It will likely slide into Nic Fit since they have copious amounts of mana to durdle with. It will likely spawn a more fragile UG combo-oriented Survival build that will wax and wane depending on how ready people are to deal with it. And that's probably about it. None of these decks are tier 1; at best they are tier 1.5. If we are inserting Survival into the format and turning two or three struggling decks into playable decks (without causing significant damage to the format) then I am all for it.
I am still not clear on why people think Survival would replace GSZ, the two seem to work together fine to me. Survival decks always wanted 1cc acceleration.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
They might be fine together in some decks, but when I was thinking of Elves in particular, I was considering how many creatures they'd have to run in order to use Glimpse of Nature effectively. I suppose it's possible (maybe even likely now that I think about it) that Elves might cut Natural Order instead, leaving them with Survival and GSZ. A split might work too, but they'd definitely have to cut some non-creature spells for it, that's for sure.
My guess is, it would gravitate a ton of those midrange decks mentioned above towards a Surivival build, creating 5-6 different flavors of survival like Bant, BUG, GW, 4C etc (like it used to?). But for me the question then becomes, would the format be worse than 4-5 flavors of SMF and 3-4 flavors of Delver decks covering the majority of the format?
Edit: I've been away from Magic for a little while but this thread motivated me to test an old Vengevine-Survival list against current Miracles and BUG Delvers lists for the lulz.
Legacy: Rituals
Vintage: Drains
I'd try fit in 2 or so in my Elves!-build. It makes for wonderful midgame, turning every creature your draw into a GSZ if you want it to be another creature.
Perhaps it might lead to Elves! dropping NO completely so they can put the focus back on the BFF-team & Glimpse of Nature FTW, I dunno, or create Elvish Bidding.deck.
I'm not sure what planet people are on when they say that GSZ would be better than SotF in Elves, it turns out that SotF makes every creature you draw/have in hand into a GSZ. It also has the added bonus of allowing Elves to potentially cram in a couple of Vengevine to enhance the beatdown plan if they can't go off. Also, did people forget that Survival Elves was actually a thing before SotF was banned? Josh's list was pretty sweet and I imagine with some updates it would certainly be a powerful deck. Plus its also possible that Elves would just play both GSZ and SotF for extra redundancy and consistency (which is exactly what you want in a combo deck) but I honestly can't think of a reason why it would play GSZ over SotF.
Because the "first" GSZ costs 1GGX and a card rather than just GX and no card..? And every now and again you want to cast GSZ for X = 0 to fetch your Dryad Arbor. You can't do that on your first turn if you have to pay 1GG to do it.
Test list for HotCarl, assuming at least Vengevine is banned in its stead:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
3 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Withered Wretch
1 Fire Imp
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Keeper of the Dead
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Eternal Witness
1 Dosan the Falling Leaf
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Viscera Seer
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Deathbringer Thoctar
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Zealous Conscripts
Neat fact: KJ in the yard also combos with Necrotic Ooze, although you have to go off on your opponent's end step.
Look how much more fun to play that looks than basically anything in the current meta though.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Why Withered Wretch over Ooze? While Ooze costs G to activate like Survival, it's significantly stronger. I'm also not convinced that a complete lack of early disruption is a good idea.
I got so excited about playing Wretch + Keeper again that I forgot for a moment that a better Wretch had been printed.
Cabal Therapy should probably be in there but it's hard to overcome my urge to be greedy.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Ok but can GSZ turn any creature you draw off of Glimpse into exactly the creature you need? The only thing GSZ really has going for it is the ability to be a Llanawar Elf by fetching Dryad Arbor, after that SotF has just way more raw power than GSZ because its a repeatable tutor. It far better at helping you "go off" as well as being better at generating value if matches get grindy. I just can't believe a creature based combo deck that can generate tons of green mana wouldn't want a repeatable creature tutor, so if SotF was to come back the really issue becomes whether you cut GSZ or NO from the deck as you don't have space for all three.
Maybe Elves need a different kind of tutor than SotF.
You want GSZ to get turn1 Arbor
You want GSZ to get one-mana elf you're missing
You want NO into kill
Doy you want to spend 1GG plus a card to get Llanoar/another druid?
Do you want to spend GGGGGGGGGGGGGGG to play Craterhoof?
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