[Deck] bUrg Tempo

[sawatarix]

Well i tested the Bitterblossom list now.for those who are unfamiliar with the creature configuration:

4 nimble mongoose
2 bitterblossom
4 deathrite shaman
3 true Name Nemesis

Every creature sticks and has some kind of shroud (except shaman)
So the opponent is in really trouble if he or she wants to get rid of our creatures,fact.
Bitterblossom just represents te slower but untouchable version of delver,which is great but also kinda slow for my taste as the deck kills now on turn 20 and not on turn 6.
Nevertheless i'm quite successful with the list although i would still run my 75 which i piloted during the
Grand prix paris.
The list is still really powerful in my opinion,i think i failed day 2 just because of
unfortunate draws/opponents lucksacking i guess.(i know everybody would say that but there were unbelievable topdecks which turned well for my opponents in a crucial turn,the magic god was just absend at this moment...)


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[blablub]

Well, tested the deck yesterday against bad matchUps, you can't win vs elves, preboard. If you have much mass removal post board, it might become better but its hard. Especially when your opponent knows how to play and starts to grind you out.

Against a good storm-player its also not that good, you don't have a fast clock, but it's better then against elves

Maybe i start playin 3 delvers (-2 goyfs - 1 bitterblossom) because i think DRS is the better 1-Drop, not sure...

but 6 shroud creatures are great against control decks, miracles is pretty good :)

have to adjust a sb then...

[Qweerios]

I disagree with a lot of the boarding strategies in the OP:

//Miracles:
//+2 ReB + 1 Fluster+ 1 Bitterblossom + 1 Golgari Charm + 1 Clique- 4 Daze- 2 Bolt

I have A LOT of experience both against and as a Miracles player and you want to take out Bolts before Daze. Bolt is the first card to take out, and Daze is the second. Miracle's games have more odds of going long and it doesn't mean you are out of the game. Daze = 1 less Angel and makes it harder for your opponent to resolve Jace, Terminus(hardcast, yes it happens) and Clique. Also, flusterstorm is practically worthless, don't side it in vs. Miracles it does no good (Pierce and Envelop are amazing though). If you have a second Golgari Charm, side it in as well, it is better than Bolt because it kills Clique and Snaps, but also has the ability to destroy RiP and CB as we care about those very much. You also get to counter Explosives and Verdicts postboard.

With my list I board out -4 Bolts, -3 Daze and bring in +2 Pyroblast, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Clique

//RUG Delver:
// - 4 Daze - 1 Force - 1 Snare+2 Submerge+ 2 REB+ 1 Loam + 1 Bitterblossom

You always want to keep your 4 Daze vs. Stifle-tempo decks. RUG operates on a low curve and playing around Daze is un-affordable with Stifles and Wastes flying about. The worst card vs. RUG is Lightning Bolt because it only kills Delver and sometime Goyf when they trade blows. Usually, Pyroblasts are strict upgrades to Bolts and Submerge replace the others. FoW is a great card in this matchup regardless of if you are OTP or OTD because the entire matchup is determined by the first turns and who gets their Stifles and Wastes through, then who can stick a Goyf, then who can find Sylvan, LftL, or Nemesis first. Another point in favor of free counters in this matchup is how impactful a protected or unanswered DRS can be on the first few turns. DRS will keep Mongoose off Threshold, race your opponent through board stalls, and directly take you past stage 1 of the tempo mirror (AKA: getting mana!).

Another thing is that Flusterstorm is relevant for this matchup. It counters removal, cantrips, and counters and has the upside of being uncounterable. It is the best card to fetch through Stifle and doing so is even more game-defining for our 4 color deck than their 3 color one.

With my list I board out -4 Bolts, -2 Pierce, -1 FoW and bring in +2 Pyroblast, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Dismember, +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Sylvan Library

//BUG Delver:
//OTP: -1 Daze-2 Force-4 Stifle+2 Submerge+1 Fluster+ 2 ReB + 1 Loam + 1 Bitterblossom
//OTD: -4 Daze- 1 Force-4 Stifle+2 Submerge+ 2 Fluster +2 ReB + 1 Loam + 1 Bitterblossom

//Shardless BUG:
//OtP: - 4 Force -2 Stifle -2 Daze+ 2 Submerge+ 2 Rough+2 ReB + 1 Loam + 1 Bitterblossom
//OtD: - 4 Daze -2 Stifle -2 Force+ 2 Submerge+ 2 Rough+2 ReB+ 1 Loam + 1 Bitterblossom

Team America is one of my prime decks for serious tournaments. Against BUG Delver (Team America) and Shardless BUG the OP suggests siding out 2-4 Stifles. I completely disagree with that. Every 3 colored deck will be crippled by Stifle and cutting 1-2 lands from out opponent via Wastes and/or Stifle is our most successful path to victory. Stifle also works on Cascade triggers, Ancestral Visions coming out of suspension, DRS activations, and Liliana activations. To beat BUG you have to keep them off DRS at all costs, avoid or mitigate Hymns, and counter what clogs the board (Goyf, Tombstalker, Liliana, Strix). I would definitely keep Stifles rather than side in Flusterstorms vs. BUG Delver as their removal is mostly uncounterable (Decay), they tend not to play Stifle and Pierce themselves, and that 2-3 Lilianas are likely to come in postboard. REB isn't as good as Stifle against Team America either as they have a very low blue count and REB only kills Delver, counters cantrips, and FoW are very likely to be boarded out for G2 and G3 in favor of additional removal (Flusterstorm food).

I played 5 games against TA yesterday and won 4/5. I sided as follows:
OTP: -4 FoW, -1 Pierce, +2 Forked Bolt, +1 Dismember, +1 LftL, +1 Sylvan Library
OTD: -2 Pierce, -2 Daze, -1 FoW, +2 Forked, +1 Dismember, +1 LftL, +1 Sylvan Library

//Maverick:
//-4 Stifle-2 Daze -1 Force+ 2 Submerge+2 Fire+ 2 Golgari Charm+1 Bitterblossom

Again, I strongly disagree of siding out Stifle against Maverick/Rock/Junk type decks (Mom + GSZ decks). They have access to lots of lands, mana dorks, and activated abilities that we'd rather counter. We cannot let them get a dork out and start wasting our lands or fetch merrily. Our primary concern is to keep their land count low and accelerators off the table. Stifle works wonders on Mom activations in combat situations or to push critical removal through, SFM and all of its equipments, KotR activations. Stifle also works wonders against their entire manabase (Canopy, Wastes, Fetches). Also, Daze tends to be really bad OTD against decks with lots of mana dorks. Here's how I board:

OTP: -4 FoW, -2 Daze, -2 Pierce, +2 Forked Bolt, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Dismember, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Vendilion Clique
OTD: -2 FoW, -4 Daze, -2 Pierce, +2 Forked Bolt, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Dismember, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Vendilion Clique

//Death&Taxes:
//-4 Daze -1 Force - 2 Delver+ 2 Fire+ 1 Grudge + 2 Golgari Charm+ 1 Clique + 1 Bitterblossom

Never side out Delvers in any matchups as it is insane to do so. Side out Daze OTD but keep them and side out FoW OTP. My boarding plan for DnT is very similar to Goblins as I side out most of my counterspells in favor of removal.

I do: -4 FoW, -3 Daze, -2 Pierce for +2 Forked Bolt, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Dismember, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Clique

//NicFit:
//+ 2 Golgari Charm+ 2 Fire+ 2 Submerge + 1 Bitterblossom + 1 Clique- 4 Daze - 3 Snare - 1 Force

If anybody has read anything on the Nic Fit thread since its creation, you should trust me on this. Against a good Nic Fit opponent, Submerge and removal in general is worthless as they have nothing you can/want remove aside from a singleton Ooze and sometimes 1-2 DRS. You have to keep all forms of counters in because as soon as your opponent gets an Explorer/Therapy off, the momentum swings drastically. FoW and Stifle are your best friends here so keep them near and dear. Abrupt Decay and Spell Snare are mostly dead cards in this matchup as the deck has nothing to Decay profitably aside from Panic Deeds (which if you kept Daze in shouldn't be an issue), and a single Ooze. The OP should side out -3 Snare, -1 Decay, for +2 Charms, +1 Clique, +1 Blossoms.

I personally side out -2 Decay, -3 Bolts for +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Clique

//TES/ANT:
//+3 Fluster+2 Fire+ 2 Golgari Charm+ 2 Reb + 1 Clique- 1 Nemesis - 2 Decay- 4 Bolt -1 Mongoose -2 Goyf

TES and ANT are very different. ANT usually packs Carpet of Flowers and Xanthid Swarm postboard. for these reasons, Abrupt Decay offers more postboard than Fire Covenant. Keeping Bolts over Goyf is better as well because of Xanthid Swarm and Ad Nauseam. Tapping two mana for a threat vs. a Storm deck is a very bad move.

I will stop here for now. I appreciate all the work put into the OP and realize how much work it is so I congratulate Sasan on that. I play the following list for comparison purposes:


Creatures (12)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells (30)
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt

Lands (18)
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

Sideboard (15)
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Forked Bolt
2 Golgari Charm
1 Dismember
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Clique


Oh! Gitaxian Probe is a very good card in any Stifle-tempo deck. It is even better in versions playing Goyf (with a low sorcery count) and Mongoose (threshold). Stating that Probe's information is not necessary for a skilled player is preposterous. As a reactive deck by design, knowing exactly what your opponent can and cannot do with his opening 7 cards (Probe) rather than his initial 60 cards deck (AKA: being a good player) is absolutely crucial. Here are some examples:

-Knowing what deck your opponent is playing before he plays his first or second turn is something only Probe can do. Seeing that my opponent is on a fast combo deck will cause me to Ponder for counterspells or leave mana open for counters rather than play a T1 Delver/DRS. Knowing that my opponent is on the aggro/midrange plan will cause be to save that Brainstorm to shuffle those Pierce and FoW away and dig for removal and threats, and plan my turns as aggressively as possible. Seeing that my opponent is land flooded and has a Deed will cause me to save Stifle for Deed rather than fetches and promptly overextend into it with multiple threats.

-As a general line of play, driving out a DRS or a Delver instead of leaving mana open for a Stifle is the right play but if you know for a fact that your opponent only has fetchlands, leaving mana open is usually the right play.

-Probe makes you more consistently draw the other cards of your deck at the expense of life. In a way it virtually expands your SB by making 1-2 ofs more readily accessible the same way Ponder and Brainstorm does but at a lower extent.

-Big Goyfs and Threshold can never be reached too quickly.

-If I could begin every match with 18 life, a peek at my opponent's hand, and a sorcery in my graveyard, I would. The drawbacks of Probe only come into consideration when your opponent has no hand information to share and when your life total becomes a liability. But even then, Probe gives you the option to spend extra mana rather than pay life for its replacement.

[Water_Wizard]

Qweerios - thanks for the analysis. You've provided a lot of food for thought. On first reading, I agree with a lot of your suggestions. My deck is different than yours, so I'll have to consider your substitutions in light of my deck list. Thanks for the time that you put into your post. I'll write more later when I've had a chance to digest your post.

I don't know why anyone would bring in Fire Covenant vs. Storm. I would rather leave in Bolt to deal with Xantid Swarm. If the Storm player creates 10-18 Goblin tokens, casting a large Fire Covenant does not seem like a good way to handle this situation. Fire Covenant costs 3 and you're dead by turn 3, not to mention, FOW and fetchlands are costing you life.

[sawatarix]

Honestly i have my own one and it works pretty well.
But there is another secret behind sideboarding in delver decks ,german ******** and rug in particular (stifle+daze decks):

"Pay attention on your opponents play during game 1 !
Does he play around daze and stifle?Does he always tap out for key spells?
Is Daze and Stifle good in general against the deck?(->elves,mud,etc)"

That is a key-factor when you sideboard for game 2 (or game 3 if necessary).
If my opponent taps out for important spells during g1 although he faces a aggressive mana denial deck, i leave all my dazes in even if i'm on the draw in g2.
The same goes the other way round,obviously.
Gentlemen,observing your opponent during g1 is crucial and i see a lot of tempo players who doesn't and have a lot of dead cards during g2/g3 which causes unneccesary gamelosses.




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Sasan]

thanks for the input. I appreciate them. But the sideboard plans work for me and are also suggestions from Carsten. The Stifleless approach to Maverick, Team America etc is controversial but I fully support it. Countering/dealing with their threats is better than the mana screw plan. Believe me :) but there are different play styles. I don't like to hope for the mana screw plan to work. I want a consistent way of winning.

Side Note: I am more and more liking Hearthstone and I am building an Hearthstone esports team. If some of the fellow burg players is interested in joining then PM me and I will see if we can get together. I know that legacy players are better then the average Hearthstone player.

[blablub]

Hey,
I want to start a discussion regards Nemesis in our deck.

Do you think its really neccessary? i've played with it and its not the best, simply because of the 3 mana. It shines against Death/Taxes but all other decks are prepared. Especially post-board. Nimble Mongoose is allways better i think.

My primär-use of this card was playing it when my opponent had his own, because you want to race. Otherwise it feels so bad to tap out for a 3/1 beatstick. Sure there are enough scenarios where your opponent simply dies to Nemesis but im not sure if its worth.

Maybe we can build the deck to simply beat the card.

[sawatarix]

Before the Grand Paris i played 3 tarmogoyfs in my list,then had some tunings on the deck again with some of my mtg madness buddys and finally played 2 nemesis in the main during the gp.
Well,although i went not supergood with my list (it was rather because of manablocking myself and in my opinion a ton of luck on the other side of the table but that's what everybody would say.anyway.) i think tnn has a home now in the deck.the blue man and deathrite shaman just fit very well,so the 3 mana does not hurt alot.
Arguments for and against tnn are obviously and i don't want to state them again here.
As a conclusion,i wouldn't cut him.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[kryllex]

Everyone has his own preferences i guess, and there are Situations where you either want a TNN or a big fat Goyf.

But I for example never felt like being in need of a TNN, simply because a Goyf is just a huge bomb after Stifling+Wasting your Opponent in the correct time, making him unable to handle this Clock. And some gooses, helping to pew pew.. Also, like blablub said, the 3 Mana feel kinda unfitting

[blablub]

hmm, i thought about a 1 mana creature base

4 DRS, 4 Mungo, 4 Delver, it sounds so great, that every thread cost only a single mana. I would play a clique in the SB because it has flash and flies over nemesis, you can switch one mungo with it against Combo,

and you gain a "fast" beater if needed.

I never feel like i need a bigger thread then 3/3 i wanna play 8 mungos :D
i hate to trade tempo in form of a 2 mana card (goyf) against a one mana card (sword)

Also i feel that i wanna have another resilent thread in the SB, i think of Garruk Relenteless, cant be pyroblasted, cost only one Mana of a color, and win against every sort of control decks, grave hate, and other point removal in the midrange matchUps :)

[sawatarix]

Blablub your idea is the origin of burg actually :-)
It worked well for me during the last year but i lost to many games against team america simply because they have the bigger animals.
I mentioned earlier here in the thread that the deck just wants 8 nimble mongoose and nothing else (like in rug)
During november
/dezember i tested some number of gsz to increase the goosecount up to 5-6 but then realized that gsz was just an easy target for spell pierce wich is a popular tax counter in the current metagame.
Getting a goose pierced felt so horrible so i cut them entirely.

Tnn is very similar to a gsz->goose which can't get pierced but pyroblasted.





- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[blablub]

Blablub your idea is the origin of burg actually :-)
It worked well for me during the last year but i lost to many games against team america simply because they have the bigger animals.

Jeah, we are in the same thinking tank :P
thats why i try to build a sideboard, which can answer everything on the stack, or after it resolves, so that you don't need cards which are not good on paper but you need them to break threw a resolves Goyf for example, the original idea in the old days of Canadian (before Delver-Print) to answer every spell which matters
Im not sure, if its possible today

[Tormod]

TNN is the nuts. I run 2 maindeck. It seems silly not to run the most hated card in legacy

[sawatarix]

I got your idea
,the ideal game looks like this one:

Turn 1 nimble mongoose followed by infinite counterspells and removal for their threads/whatever they have and our opponent just dies because he can't handle goose.
During dome GP-Trials i swapped my sideboard into a "nimble-mongoose-control deck"
Means the only 4 remaining creatures after sideboarding were 4 geese and the rest was just an overload on countermagic and removal.
I never lost a game against uwr delver postboard with that strategy,blanking 8+ spells (removal) while countering every single threat they have and there are just 10 felt very good.

Sadly this strategy does not work against every deck that well to be honest.
Sometimes we have to remain the aggro-team against certain matchups (like midrange,control) to beat them quickly because they have to many creatures/important spells and overload our spells.

What i would run in the current metagame:

Definately 4 Nimble Mongoose
Definately 3 Deathrite Shaman
Definately 2-3 True Name Nemesis
The rest is flexible,may it delver,tarmogoyf


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[JosephK]

@Qweerios

Thank you for your very nice post. I agree with a lot of stuff you wrote. Yesterday I played vs Miracle and I kept 2 Daze. My opponent had to fulltap to cast entreat (3 tokens) because of bitterblossom. Daze in my hand... Thanks !
Concerning your list, how are you playing vs Jund OTD -g1 and g2 ? An active punishing fire gets rid of 8 of your threats and decay takes care of tarmo..

@Sawatrix

Yes ! I completly agree ! This strategy can really pay off. To know wether I can or not play a delverless version of the deck game 2, I usually ask myself :
Am I OTD ?
How many threats do they have g2 ?
How many removals ?

OTD, Few threats and many removals are the best conditions to go delverless (a specific sideboard is required though).

It works very well against UWR delver and RUG OTD.
Vs BUG TNN/TS OTD. Postside, they usually have 14-15 threats and 8-10 removals (let s say 2 submerge 4 decay 2 disfigure 2 liliana). With delver, I can have 14 threats postside as well. But it's mongoose vs tarmo.. I can have 4 bolt 2 decay 1 forked bolt/covenant 1 reb 2 Spell Snare 1 edict = 11. It's quite even. Going delverless is a bad idea : we don't have enough removals to clear the path.
Vs Jund OTD. For the same reason, I keep delver. But punishing is a real problem. I need a hand like drs + fow/snare/pierce..

Maybe I overlooked something and a delverless sideboarding may be viable vs Jund OTD.. I wonder if I will take 2 thoughtseize out of my sideboard to support this idea..

[Tormod]

I've been thinking that Deathrite shaman is "sort of" like a bolt at times. Bolts are so good, I just want more. I would like to be able to burn out my opponent more often.
So this is something I put together but have yet to test.

4 Delver
4 Deathrite
2 Snapadoo
3 TNN
3 Snare
3 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
1 Abrupt
4 Wasteland
8 blue fetches
2 Volcs
2 Seas
2 Trops.

SB
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Bitterblossom
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
1 Pithing Needle
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
2 Forked Bolt

Notes:
11 Non-blue cards main deck. Less dependent on green.
18 points of burn main deck + snapcaster and deathrite shaman = a lot of reach and a way to end games fast. don't have to worry about trying to get around batterskull.
3 TNN, people hate this guy and for good reason. Blocks batterskull like a champ. A cool line of play would be to hide behind TNN while burning their dome, and swinging with TNN when the time is right.
This is still a tempo deck, just more of an an emphasis on burn.

[Holly]

While DRS is a good card.. do you really think its worth splashing 2 colors for him? He's your only reason to run green and your only reason to run black (apart from 1 decay and some semi-changeble sideboard cards). If you really want to follow the more burn route look at UR-Delver (not necessarly UR-burn). 5 cc3 cards seems a lot, too.

[Tormod]

While DRS is a good card.. do you really think its worth splashing 2 colors for him? He's your only reason to run green and your only reason to run black (apart from 1 decay and some semi-changeble sideboard cards). If you really want to follow the more burn route look at UR-Delver (not necessarly UR-burn). 5 cc3 cards seems a lot, too.

In a nutshell, this is a blue deck with GB for drs and R for bolt.

I said I wanted to be able to burn out my opponent. Did you see the comment I made referring to drs as a burn at certain times? But that doesn't mean I want to play goblin guide, and give up dazes and stifles. DRS gives so much reach and completements the burn strategy. Modern burn ran drs for his effective reach. I mentioned this in the notes...

[Will_L]

TNN seems fucking horrible in a 4 color tempo deck

speaking from experience playing canadian, BURG and URW over several years

What am I missing? Is a 3 mana 3/1 really what tempo wants?

[Lemnear]

TNN seems fucking horrible in a 4 color tempo deck

speaking from experience playing canadian, BURG and URW over several years

What am I missing? Is a 3 mana 3/1 really what tempo wants?

The deck wants beater with evasion you don't have to defend but free your resources to disrupt the opponent. TNN is possibly the only creature in the cardpool which fulfills both and between DRS, Wasteland and Stifle you should be the first deck to resolve TNN to go for a race. As long as you keep opponents Equipment off the table with Decay/Ancient Grudge or Stifle/Snare against SFM, you should win against the Blade-subtypes