My Nic Fit testing for the last year was limited to Pod variants. I basically shelved traditional Nic Fit when it stopped being a metagame deck in the RUG/Maverick era. The latest lists I have played were all BUG Pod variants. However, there lots of hiccups that confirmed my initial suspicions about this deck. I still cannot figure out why BUG is more common than Junk.
Glen Elendra is one of the best creatures I have ever played in a Pod deck hands down... but so is SFM
Just like playing Stoneblade with 3 Jace, most of my games don't involve a Pod because I only play 3 and consists of a "must-counter". As a Pod-less Pod deck, BUG is fairly weak and a Goyf will pose a serious threat while a Bob will likely go unanswered for several turns.
The more I played, the more I would try to increase my GSZ count to 2-3 and squeeze more green creatures in. The more GSZ I had, the more consistency I would get in my early turns, and consequently, the more I wished the top of my curve was green.
Strix forces shaky manabases early on as blue and black on T2 requires more dual lands and leads to unnecessary blowouts. Strix never stopped any Delver from swinging at me because he is the only thing that would stand between a T1 Delver and my life total, therefore he was always countered or removed.
I never reached Grave Titan in a timely fashion in any competitive game against any of the top tier decks, not even once... The only times I would reach him were when the game was already over (AKA: climbing a Pod chain).
I lost most of the matches I played against good players piloting good decks. Most of my losses were due to a vulnerable manabase, impossible mana costs, being unable to Brainstorm early without a Dual land, not having an answer to Bob, having my plans shattered by a single Thoughtseize or Hymn because of the high interdependence of my cards, or simply having all my key cards countered. Unless you side in 12+ high impact cards against combo, Pod has too much dead weight in the main to consistently beat combo decks.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Though I disagree with how harsh you are on the BUG pod variant... I DO agree that every specific weakness that you have stated is real.Originally Posted by Qweerios
Per delver decks: In my list I still play 3 abrupt decay, and 2 deed... so answering goyf/delver/TNN and those variants are quite easy.
Shaky manabase: Like with ANY brainstorm deck, fixing shaky manabases, and finding pod are easier. I also play 0 GSZ as it sucks in BUG pod.
POD is slow and vunerable: But, closing out games with Pod against decks like Miracles is a thing. Being able to find that Thrun/Aetherling is huge in a long game.
I am curious to test a Junk build... I have yet to try out that version. Is there a "best" stock list that we should be starting from.
You don't like strix against delver because it's an immediate, must answer problem for them? What?
I don't understand why you're bringing up delver as an issue, to be honest. Mull to a hand that will get you out of the early game, then top deck one of the 15 cards that crush delver or one of the 9 cards that can find them.
I believe Qweerios means that in certain BUG Pod lists, Baleful is the only card that can stop Delver. Not sure of his list though, as now we have Abrupt Decay, Deed @ 1 or 0 (forget the transformation CMC) in a pinch, etc, etc.
However, I can see what he's saying: that stabilizing early against tempo/aggro strategies is crucial for us to win, and a considerable part of that battle is getting a Veteran Explorer trigger to resolve. The only way to do that against evasive beats is through Cabal Therapy or another sac-outlet, which forces us to find another method of answering said beats (e.g. Delver, Tombstalker, TNN, etc.)
What he's saying is that Strix is a splash+splash (UB are not core colors for BUG nic fit, G is) card that is must-answer, therefore it will be answered, but to even attempt to cast it, you have to overextend your mana base. You're overextending for the possibility of getting a Strix into play, but Delver decks are so frontloaded with counters, removal, etc, that the chance of that Strix sticking are basically null.
Consider:
RUG leads Delver.
You lead fetch pass.
They drop a goose, swing for 1 (or 3, either way).
You drop a Sea, fetch for Trop, play Strix, it gets Dazed.
They untap, bash you, waste your Trop, and hold Stifle for your next land drop (if it's a fetch).
I'm not saying that's the most common scenario per se, but Strix -does- bait you into overextending to be able to cast it. It's a phenomenal card if it sticks, but odds are that you're going to be dead by the time you get a Strix to stick.
This is exactly the issue here. 4 BS doesn't render a 2-card combo consistent. I have never mulliganed so much with a Nic Fit deck than when I started playing without GSZ.
Blue Pod decks sacrifice cards like Decay for Deeds and Recurring Nightmare. Those are much slower and easier to disrupt which converts to 2-3 additional Delver swings. Having Brainstorm > GSZ and Strix > SFM means that you have to fetch dual lands in the early turns meaning that Wasteland will convert into more Delver swings. Without GSZ you have less acceleration and less copies of Explorer. Brainstorm doesn't equate GSZ in terms of consistency for a specific card (AKA: early mana (AKA: all you care about to find with BS)). For a heavy green and black deck, the blue commitment that Strix, BS, and even some of the creatures require (Sower) is way too high. T1 GSZ for Dryad and T2 GSZ for DRS is a common play that allows the deck to function.
@Ish,
There were a couple other users on this forum that played Junk Pod but I don't know where they went. Here's the list I use:
Creatures (22)
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Harmonic Sliver (Reclamation Sage)
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Entomber Exarch
1 Restoration Angel
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
Others (17)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Birthing Pod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
Lands (21)
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
Sideboard (15)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Aegis of the Gods
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Choke
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Thoughtseize
As you can see the deck functions mostly on green and black mana. It consistently gets a T1 mana dork or a T1 Therapy followed with a T2 Explorer. There are no 6drops, less 5drops, and most creatures are accessible through GSZ. I have plenty of life gain for Pod activations with Jitte and BSkull. Jitte is simply a great card to have with Explorer as well. The SFM package greatly benefits from all the acceleration and the endgame generally involves a Sigarda with an equipment. Unlike most Pod decks, this one can generate a lot of value and be extremely versatile without ever seeing a Pod.
It is also interesting to note how diverse the Tutor board is with plenty of singleton Artifact/Enchantment creatures that can be Poded into as well. I will often bring the entire 15 cards out of the SB to combat combo decks while I only need to replace 1-3 cards in the main for most fair matchups.
...Yes, Leyline of Sanctity can be problematic but I can live with that.
***EDIT*** both answers above are what I meant about Strix.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Just chiming in to say I've found Delver matchups to be vastly in BUG pod's favor. I haven't really had problems with Blue mana or casting Baleful Strix or Brainstorm. When I lose to Delver it's because they are able to keep me off mana in general, not blue in particular. Also sometimes I lose by flooding out. But, yeah, our experiences are quite different. I find the matchup to be definitively in favor of BUG Pod against all variants of Delver. I've also won often without drawing Birthing Pod (in fact, a majority of the time against Delver I win without Pod). It does happen sometimes that you'll draw all your expensive pod targets and they'll snipe all your mana and you'll lose. I have a hard time seeing how being stuck with a Grave Titan vs. a Sigarda in hand if you only have 2 mana makes much of a difference, but I guess I'll take your word for it.
Tarmogoyf is not a big problem for BUG Pod, primarily because of Baleful Strix (and all the other creatures that gum up the ground).
Dark Confidant IS a problem, and that and TNN are the reasons I'd want to play white for Orzhov Pontiff.
Anyway, it's not hard for me to concede the point that Junk might be better against Delver than BUG, but I don't see how it matters if the BUG matchup vs delver is still very good (which I think it is). I suppose if the BUG's matchup vs. the rest of the field were no better, it would be a mistake not to discard it for junk, but I don't think that's the case.
Your arguments about the merits of the junk version are good though, and I'll seek to try it out at the next opportunity I get.
In re: a question about snapcaster mage from a page ago: I wouldn't play snapcaster with only brainstorm and abrupt decay as targets.
GtF, my experience mirrors yours. They can't keep BUG pod in the early game, and our card quality is so much higher than theirs that they get rolled in the mid to late game.
You don't need the "combo", you just need the explorer and two mana sources. Obviously their nut hand is still their nut hand, but just dropping an explorer on turn 2 to play around daze will hold off 8 of their threats until they find a stifle, which they will now not be able to use on lilly/deed/shriekmaw/redcap/pod/fleshbag maurader.
I think the mistake you're making is in aggressively using your brainstorms and strixes in the early game. Fetch a basic forest and a basic swamp first, only drop your duals on the turn you intend to use them, and take a couple beats while you lock your mana down. I don't use brainstorm to find mana sources in the early game unless forced to by a series of bad mulls. I use brainstorm in the mid-late game to fill my hand with a bunch of haymakers that the delver decks can't repeatedly answer.
On Bug Pod versus Delver.dec:
My experience has also been very similar to GtF's and firebadmattgood's. Should be a good matchup, even without running more than one copy of Abrupt Decay.
On Bug Pod's sideboard:
Would anyone be willing to chime in on their strategies against combo decks with the Force of Will / Pilferer / Envelop board configuration? I've been using this configuration for a little bit of time now, and I'm still finding the Storm matchup unwinnable, despite often seeing Force and Pilferer in my opening grip. Sneak Show and Elves have been a little bit easier to combat, while Reanimator remains awful. I understand that, yes, Storm and Reanimator are difficult to defeat for Bug Pod, but I still must be doing something wrong if my Forces are doing nothing in those matchups.
I saw a list of Shardless Bug on ChannelFireball, which sports one Savannah in the board to enable four Meddling Mages to come in for the various combo matchups. Would something like this be worth testing for Bug Pod? Mage helps cast Force, doesn't get discarded to Duress, and has an immediate effect on the board state, unlike Pilferer.
It might not be a bad strategy. If you were doing that, I'd want to squeeze in a pontiff and maybe an ethersworn cannonist as well. The awkward thing about riptide pilferer is that it's not really usable against combo decks using the graveyard (reanimator and dredge mainly). Additionally, I could see Meddling Mage being good against Miracles, where we need the help. It also works great with Cabal Therapy. On the other hand, how good is an SB card if you can't get it into play reliably before you're killed? Would need to see how consistent it is.
The general plan is to board out all the expensive pod targets and some (1-2) of the pods or the recurring nightmare. Some strixes and Explorers can go as well. Against SnT, you can keep in a few more of the creatures that are good vs the Card Show and Tell.
Basically you morph into a weird fish deck. If they can't go off in the first few turns, a few hits of pilferer or an on-board Glen Elendra or a Scavenging Ooze make things pretty impossible eventually.
I'm still playing with Rector/Living Wish. Went 6-2-1 at SCG Milwaukee and then 4-1-1 at a side event at GP Mpls. I'm fairly happy with it still.
Current Build: Punishing Rhinos http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post927726
Awesome! Thank you Ari for the amazing post you gave last page. Really helpful, along with Qweerios insight to the use of Pod.
Could the posters of the last 2 pages post their lists? I'm looking to get an idea of everything I could be working with, :)
Everyone defending BUG Pod against Delver decks seem to be talking about their supposed "god hands" and the right way to use Brainstorm. If a god hand means a Delver with counterspell backup and a Wasteland, those tend to happen quite often. Let's not forget that they also play Brainstorm with Ponders on top of that. Delver decks have a low curve and function effectively on just a couple of lands. Delvers, Deathrites, and Nemesis can't be blocked by Explorers so no Therapies means Explorers don't do anything. A "god hand" from a Delver deck generally involves multiple evasive threats, wastelands, and the right combination of soft counters/removal for a swift death. Let's not forget that fetches can be stifled and lands can be hymned away too. A skilled player piloting a Delver deck will more often than not restrict your land drops and colors available and all you can do is function on limited resources. All I am saying here is that Junk can, and BUG cannot.
As for Brainstorm uses, there is only one good way to use one: to extend your hand and deploy your strategy smoothly while shuffling away or delaying unwanted cards in favor of useful ones. With 20-22 lands you are likely to make your first 2-3 land drops. It is very common that you have only 2 lands, which are not necessarily basics and that you brainstorm into another and cannot shuffle or do not draw into any more for a few turns. These are extremely common scenarios that Delver decks prey upon. Clearly in the testaments above, Brainstorms are not needed since the players playing BUG Pod seem to be making all their land drops, having their Deathrites fed and untouched or their Explorers facing a blockable threat, and somehow manage to curve out naturally. In 12 years of magic I have brainstormed on T2 more times than I can count because Brainstorm is a card that allows you to keep more hands than you otherwise should. Everything a Brainstorm does in the early stages for a Pod deck, a GSZ will do better. GSZ is also arguably better later on as well even if it is a bit different from BS.
The issues I face with Delver decks while playing BUG Pod are also common against midrange decks. I play in a very competitive environment with skilled players and decks like Shardless BUG, Team America, Blade Control, and Jund to name a few will often:
-take as much advantage of my Explorers as I will;
-have too much disruption for me to deploy (and that can often only be a single Thoughtseize, Hymn, or a countered key spell);
-play cards that I cannot deal with in time due to the shitstorm of different cards in the deck that have no backbone to hold them together other than Pod;
-simply have the potential to grind me out with cards like Liliana, Jace, Jitte, PFire, Nemesis, AV, Sylvan Library...
When I play Junk, however, games take a different turn. While I may not have the occasional Nightmare loops, blowout Deed, and overkill Pod chains, I do get to play most of my cards in nearly every game. It is no secret that Pod decks need mana acceleration. Explorer on his own does not accelerate you into anything and even with a Therapy does not ensure that you will generate a favorable board position from the interaction. The Junk version has more "core" cards that hold the deck together (4 GSZ, 3 Pod, 3 SFM) than BUG (4 BS, and 3 Pod). Consider this:
Junk vs. BUG (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13652&iddeck=100285)
T1 Accel: 7 vs. 3
T2 Accel: 4 vs 1
# Explorers: 4+4 GSZ vs. 4+1 GSZ
# 1 Drops: 11+4 GSZ vs. 11 (15 if you count BS)
# 2 Drops: 11+4 GSZ vs. 8+1 GSZ (13 with BS)
# 3 Drops: 7+4 GSZ vs. 9+1 GSZ (Deed included)
# 4 Drops: 3+4 GSZ vs. 3+1 GSZ
# 5 Drops: 3 vs. 3
# 6 Drops: 0+4 GSZ vs. 1+1 GSZ
Color distribution:
26 Green cards vs. 20 Green cards
14 Black cards vs. 18 Black cards
7 White cards vs. 11 Blue cards
4 GB cards vs. 3 GB cards
3 GW cards vs. 0 GU cards
1 BW card vs. 4 BU cards
Color weight:
28 Green symbols vs. 23 Green symbols
16 Black symbols vs. 20 Black symbols
7 White symbols vs. 12 Blue symbols
Color availability for 21 lands + mana dorks available:
17+7 Green sources vs. 15+3 Green sources
14+7 Black sources vs. 15+4 Black sources
13+7 White sources vs. 15+4 Blue sources
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
I have had a lot of success with the Pilferer sideboard. I think that Storm is a little unfavourable. My experience is about 40-60. Game 1 is nigh unwinnable. They have to have a very slow hand and you have to get an active Glen Elendra Archmage. Post board I aim to slow them down with Therapy, Envelop and Force for a bit, while Pilferers attack their hand. I often wait to play the Pilferer until turn 3 if I have an Envelop. The ultimate goal is to cast or Pod into an Archmage. I board in about 12 hate cards post board, and take out all other Pod targets than Archamge, Witness and Finks (to pod into Archmage). I keep 3-4 Strixes for blue count and Therapy fodder.
Elves is difficult. Envelop, Deed, Therapy and Golgari Charm are great. I don't board in Force. My experience versus Reanimator is the exact opposite of yours. I have lost perhaps one tournament match against it out of about 15. The combination of the combo hate and 4 Deathrite plus Ooze makes me often able to stop them from comboing. It may just be not be representative, but I still feel favoured after they land Gristlebrand. Between Sower, Venser, Phantasmal Image, Pod and Strix, Gristlebrand is very manageble. I think that their best card is Elesh Norn, which is difficult to beat. I think that Sneak and Show is similar, but a little worse. I generally beat turn 2-3 Show and Tell. Sneak attack is tough. I keep Acidic Slime and board in Golgari Charm for it. It is my most common Therapy name. In my experience their most threatening play is to use a cantrip to put Sneak Attack followed by a monster on the top of their library.
@ Delver match ups
It seems very reasonable that Junk has a better match up against Delver. I agree with GtF that the match up is still very good with BUG. Unless desperate I postpone all of my plays a turn or two to play around mana denial and soft counters. Being at 14 or sometimes 11 before playing a Strix is fine, in my experience.
Your earlier post
Your most recent posthaving my plans shattered by a single Thoughtseize or Hymn because of the high interdependence of my cards
This criticism isn't coherent.play cards that I cannot deal with in time due to the shitstorm of different cards in the deck that have no backbone to hold them together other than Pod
Yep, I'm going to stick with operator error here. Delver decks exist to punish people who keep a hand that they hope brainstorm fixes.
Look, your praise for junk colors and GSZ are perfectly valid, and I have no doubt that this configuration improves the midrange/control matchup (a resolved Jace/skull suuuuucks when you're on BUG). I just can't accept the criticism that the delver matchup is something that needs improving.
I'm brand new to Nic Fit and would like some input on this list:
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
5 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Eternal Witness
3 Restoration Angel
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Acidic Slime
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
My main idea was that Restoration Angel seems to fit well with the Nic Fit ramp strategy, and seems to be a decent creature in general (provides value when it comes into play, has flash, is evasive, and doesn't die to Bolt or Abrupt Decay).
No sideboard yet, but it will be geared heavily towards beating combo since the main deck looks like it would have an atrocious combo matchup. I'm not looking to make my main deck focused on anti-combo, though. Anyway, any input on the main deck would be appreciated.
Resto is definitely very powerful, but I don't think you have quite enough to do with her at the moment. I'd cut out the Lilianas and the Thoughtseizes to bulk up your creature package a little. Liliana is strong vs combo but weak vs fair, and if you want them you should probably sideboard them -- they're kind of anti-synergistic with Resto since it discourages you from +1ing Liliana, and you don't really want to hold lands to discard to her because Nic fit gets better the more lands you have in play. I'm not a fan of the 2-main Thoughtseize plan that I see cropping up in peoples' lists from time to time, and I'd rather see those be higher-impact cards (preferably something that plays well with Resto).
Hello community,
first, let me introduce myself as a long-time lurker and – finally – first-time poster. I really appreciate the hard work all of you contribute to evolve the archetype. Second, let me uncover myself as a player who is taking Nic Fit to tournaments for only about one year and a half now. So I have experience with different incarnations, ranging from straight GB over Rector to Junk Pod, but am aware that I still have to improve my play. Currently, I am on a slightly modified version of Qweerios’ Junk Pod-list from a couple of pages ago (337/338) and feeling very comfortable with it.
@Qweerios: Now that you have posted your most recent list, I have a few questions regarding some of your choices. Some time ago you stressed that the more you play the deck, the less you want to see Explorer, especially when it shows up in the late game. If I remember right, you also stated that the Shamans are capable to do quite a lot of work for the deck and upped their number to 4. So you finally concluded to run the following configuration of mana dorks: 4 Shamans, 2 Explorers, 1 Bird of Paradise – why did you go back again?
While I absolutely understand that Academy Rector is a bit fragile at times and that Pernicious Deed and Recurring Nightmare are situational cards, I always appreciate the opportunity to have and find a reset button. Also, the line of Rector -> sac into Pod -> fetch Recurring Nightmare + Thragtusk presents a challenge most decks are not capable to solve. Why did you discard the Rector-package? Is it because of consistency issues, e.g. to have room for the whole playset Abrupt Decay?
As a follow-up: It seems that Entomber Exarch is your replacement for Rector and I can see that it is a very versatile card, adopting part of the job Recurring Nightmare did, while also having applications independent of the graveyard. In theory, however, both effects seem underwhelming to me, even against control decks where Exarch seems to shine the most – although I have not yet tested the card in a sufficient number of actual games, I admit. Don’t you miss a Pod target that offers a terror-effect? Might Nekrataal be a valuable replacement for Entomber Exarch? I would appreciate if you could elaborate on your recent changes a bit.
@All: feels great to be part of the Source now and I hope that I might be able to contribute some insight/ideas in the future as well.
Last edited by MeisterMitschl; 06-04-2014 at 03:19 PM.
Bravo Sir, Bravo. The work you are doing on here should not be understated. *slow clap*
---
Re: Qweerios, Delver MUs, BUG vs JUNK:
People tend to overstate their win-rate against any kind of deck, and you can see it in basically every deck-thread. I don't doubt that there are NicFit pilots who are perfectly capable of winning a large percentage of games against Delver decks, but it is extremely variable due to the variance of lists that people are running (both on our and the opponent's side), and the experience & skill of the pilots involved. Don't let experiences with and versus multiple differing archetypes of NicFit and Delver bleed into each other too much. Punishing Fit is different than BUG Pod, and UWR is different than RUG.
I think Qweerios has a point here. Stop picking apart the specifics of what he's saying and look at the big picture here: If you're facing Delver decks, a deck with 6-8 copies of Decay and STP is going to fare much better than one with simply 3-4 copies of Decay, and its almost impossible to argue that. Spot removal is King against the Mono-threat.dec. BUG Pod lists are more skewed towards U creatures, which, as the splash colour, automatically makes it more susceptible to land disruption, which Delver decks aim to maximize. Still only RUG is playing the full Stifle/Waste/Daze package, so as above, remember that the MU b/w each variant will have different crux-points of what is relevant.
So what is the takeaway from this? It is, as always, just a note on the metagame positioning of both decks: If you're expecting a ton of Delver, you're probably going to have a better time with JUNK. If there is going to be more Control / Miracles, BUG and Glen Elendra will probably serve you better. Whether or not that makes them better in a vacuum is irrelevant; Legacy (and MTG as a whole) has always been and will always be a format of Metagaming.
Fundamentally, if I'm playing Resto do you think it's better to add small to mid-size value creatures that I can blink with her (something like Eternal Witness), or higher impact big creatures like Grave Titan and Thragtusk? On the one hand, with smaller creatures I could have the mana to cast the creature and then EOT blink with Resto, on the other hand I could be going way over the top with bigger creatures, even if it means I have to wait a full turn to blink them.
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