[Deck] bUrg Tempo

[Qweerios]

To follow on the BUG w/ Bolts and RUG w/ DRS bandwagon, I would have to agree that the TA version is better than the thresh version. I think that if RUG had access to cards like Abrupt Decay in RG, Stifle would be the first card they would cut for it. Dropping Stifles from the main meant that I needed more copies of essential dual lands to survive 2+ Wastelands so in came the 20th land. Being left with only Bolts, Decays, and Pierce as reactive spells with Pierce being the only pure reactive one, the switch from Clique to TNN was smooth and easy. I came to the same exact list Sawatrix plays with the exception that my Cliques are TNN, the lone Spell Snare is a 3rd UDG Sea, and that I play a 3rd Tropical Island instead of the Taiga (I never liked that card in this deck).

Personally I like TNN in every deck that can play it. The card is amazing and a shrouded unblockable delver is all we need to win a game at any stage. TNN also fills a crucial role when a Batterskull manages to slip into play and we need to stall until we find that Ancient Grudge or enough Decays and Bolts to get lethal damage in.

On an unrelated note, what do you guys think about Thoughtseize in the SB as our main combo hate to complement our counter suite? I believe that diversifying your angle of disruption is much better than stacking up on cards like Flusterstorm.

[Tom]

I have really been thinking a lot about the best creature configuration.

In the tournaments i played and also online i found the "original" configuration to be the best and most successful:

3 DRS
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver

However, I realized that only having these as a critter package sometimes seemed too unstable, therefore I tested Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, True-name Nemesis and even Pyromancer (as 2-ofs in each case).

TNN dies to the very potent Golgari Charm. Goyf has the well- know graveyard-hate drawback and dies to Swords to Plownshares. Bob either wins you the game or does not even survive until your next untap step (cannot counter everything ;) )

What to do? Maybe replace these 2 flex- creature spot with instants or sorceries, but options are (too) vast. I thought about Vapor Snag.

What do you think?

(Sorry for not having any card tags, still figuring out how to do them as i do not post regularly…)

[Pelikanudo]

I have really been thinking a lot about the best creature configuration.

In the tournaments i played and also online i found the "original" configuration to be the best and most successful:

3 DRS
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver

However, I realized that only having these as a critter package sometimes seemed too unstable, therefore I tested Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, True-name Nemesis and even Pyromancer (as 2-ofs in each case).

TNN dies to the very potent Golgari Charm. Goyf has the well- know graveyard-hate drawback and dies to Swords to Plownshares. Bob either wins you the game or does not even survive until your next untap step (cannot counter everything ;) )

What to do? Maybe replace these 2 flex- creature spot with instants or sorceries, but options are (too) vast. I thought about Vapor Snag.

What do you think?

(Sorry for not having any card tags, still figuring out how to do them as i do not post regularly…)

I found this the best configuration also.
I recently was testing 4 Delver 4 DRS and 3 TNN, but the one you expose seems the perfect.

What I suggest is adding 1 Silvan Library, its just wonderfull and serves as a Creature slot.

[Tom]

Library sound good indeed. That still leaves one slot for another beater…

[Kael]

Only running 12 dudes + 1 Library seems to be a little low threat-wise. I'd try to find room for a 13th critter somewhere.

Switching topics a bit, has anyone considered Treasure Cruise? I haven't actually tested the card, but Greg is advocating it's use in TA, which probably means it could fit in a Stifle-less build here as well. On one hand, being in 4 colors means we're fairly limited on how many good cards we can stick in the 75, but we also have access to 4 Bolt, which interacts nicely with Cruise due to it's cheap cost and flexible effect.

[kryllex]

I'm Currently Running 2 Treasure Cruise in a Pyromancer-BURG build with Stifles, and i have to say... this card is insane. Like, literally, insane! Grave is filling super fast, and casting an "Ancestral Recall" in legacy? I had to laugh while playing, because it felt just completely unreal. I also tested it with Tarmogoyf+Deathrite. Goyf never got smaller, and Deathrite just keeps his thingies going. I mean - WHAT?!

Treasure Cruise. Try it. Seriously, try it.

[mote5]

I've been playing "Spy Kids" with 3 Treasure Cruise(s) in place of Edric, Fire/Ice, and the 4th Stifle. I agree, the card is insane. I don't know what to cut for the 4th Treasure Cruise, but with three, they are always live, so I think it can support the full playset. With only Deathrite and Treasure Cruise looking towards the graveyard, do you think Rest in Peace/other graveyard hate will be sided in against us? Should you side out your TCs when playing against any W deck? Would this configuration influence when to side in Cabal Therapy?

[the_goat]

hello everyone...last two weekends I was in Milan and I played 2 torunaments (41 players the 1st and Ovinogeddon - 476 players)

I played in both tournaments almost same 75 cards

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Vendilion Clique


4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Fire/Ice
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Treasure Cruise (only change --> 1 snapcaster + 1 snare in 1st tournament)

2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Submerge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Forked Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge

1st tournaments 4-1-1 into top 8 quarterfinal loss

round 1 - 1-0
I won with Elves burning/destroying every creature hitting the board and countering glimpses
round 2 - 2-0
I met Death and Taxes and I won by applying enough pressure and out of the side forked bolt + grudge + golgari charm were stellar
round 3 - 3-0
BUG Delver g1 he kept heavy hand with planeswalkers/tourach and died to a t1 delver flipped g2 - I think he was manascrewed long enough for me to lead the race.
round 4 - 3-1
I lost to junk/maverick - g1 early chalice for 1 locked me out...g2 I won pretty fast...g3 early chalice...I go cleanup step discard grudge...second chalice...I have decay...third chalice I have no reply and I die because of a 20/20 token
round 5 - 4-1
ANT I win 2-0...too many counters/pressure...g2 I resolve both shaman and lavamancer...that killed 2 green insects...I win without attacking (only shaman/lavamancer damage + his own probes/fetches)
round 6 - ID with Omniscience

top8 QF - I lose to team America...g1 I lose badly g2 I win easily g3 after 4 wastelanda I am stranded without red and green...with lavamancer on the field vs empty board...he topdecks treasure cruise that flips the board in his vantage...gg

Ovinogeddon - 9 rounds - I close 6-3

round1 - 1-0 miracles
nothing to say here...if you counter their sensei's top matchup becomes immediately favorable...he did not play around daze game 1 turn 1... I had force OTD game 2 turn 1 --> both games went smooth.
round2 - 1-1 S&T/hypergenesis
a friend of mine killed me in 2 fast games with a sweet S&T brew featuring hypergenesis/omniscience package...g2 I tried to resist keeping one land daze daze reb shaman delver goyf...I countered first s&t with REB...I countered first hypergenesis with double daze (he used SSG to pay the first) and tried to counter with pierce the third attempt (he had misdirection)...in both cases Mr.Emrakul sealed fast the deal.
round 3 - 2-1 team italia
I do not remember much of the two games but the plan wasteland + daze/pierce prevented him from playing any threats long enough for my delver to win.
round 4 - 3-1 MUD
G1 I lose the die roll and I kept a hand with 4 "one drops" and 3 lands - he started with ancient tomb into chalice for 1...I forced one trinisphere and he was locked with only 2 lands...after few discard phases from both sides I topdeck vendilion clique...and I found out he had all spells with mana cost 4 or more...few turns after i found decay to finish him with bolts
G2 I countered a couple of early chalice and killed metalworker...I finished him off with ancient grudge and clique again.
round 5 - 3-2 Patriot
G1 I win pretty fast...so fast I believed he was canadian...as I saw only stifles and delvers and a UR fetch for Volcanic
G2 I keep greedy monolander and get punished by his wasteland/stifle plan
G2 he kills me by resolving 2 treasure cruises...I look at my golgari charm (i was waiting for Rest in Peace) hopeless...when he told me that since he plays tresure cruise RIP is not in sideboard anymore.
round 6 - 4-2 miracles
Johannes is an Austrian friend I met in Prague at Prague Eternal - I know what he plays and i know he is a good player - luckily he does not know what I play - G1 he keeps a hand with Terminus and he does not find a brainstorm to shuffle it away...my fast delver kills him...G2 I counter an early top and my goyf is big since the first attack to finish him fast...he resolves a Terminus when low on life but I have clique backup plan
round 7 - 4-3 Nic Fit
Unwinnable matchup in my opinion... G1 I counter early top and first explorer but he finds sakura and another explorer + cabal to gain million mana...he closes the game with a baloth race. G2 I am on a favorable board position...eating his life total with goyf + shaman...I counter GSZ and he topdecks Scavenging Ooze with plenty of green mana...
round8 - 5-3 Canadian
I do not recall much of this matchup...I think I won easily 2-0
round9 - 6-3 BUG Delver
We both know we play for the glory as prizes were for top 32 only...I win easily 2-0 topdecking everytime the card I needed...counter or removal...I resolve in both games treasure cruise and the game is pretty much over.

I will definitely remove the 2 lavamancers from side...they are really good...but I plan to play 3 treasure cruises now on...after talking to another Czech player and to an Italian player that plays same list, I plan to cut fire/ice for the third decay and to play in side second golgari and second submerge.

[Qweerios]

I also have some results to post as I played 4c Delver decks over the past 3 weeks in various small tournaments. All 3 lists were different and the first one is more black heavy (more like the Grixis green thread). I finished 1st or tied for 1st in all 3 tournaments. Here are the results and the lists:

1st tournament (Treasure Cruise was not legal yet)

0-2 vs. BUG Landstill
2-1 vs. Miracle Control
2-1 vs. DnT
2-0 vs. Team America


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker
1 Liliana of the Veil

3 Spell Pierce
3 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pyroblast
2 Envelop
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dismember
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage

20 Lands (8 fetch, 3 Udg Sea, 2 Trop, 2 Volc, 1 Badlands)

This deck focused more on black than green and favored cards like Marsh Casualties over Golgari Charm, and Liliana over Diabolic Edict both in the main and the side.

2nd tournament (Treasure Cruise was not legal yet)

2-0 vs. UB Control w/ CounterTop
2-1 vs. Elves
2-1 vs. Deathblade

For this small tournament I was using the following configuration:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tarmogoyf

3 Spell Pierce
3 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard
2 Envelop
2 Pyroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Counterspell
1 Golgari Charm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Forked Bolt
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Vendilion Clique

20 Lands (8 fetch, 3 Udg Sea, 3 Trop, 2 Volc)

This was mostly a test run as I wanted to try out more mana and Nemesis > Goyf. It worked out fine but in the end I did return to 4 Goyfs.

3rd tournament (Treasure Cruise was legal)

2-0 vs. Esperblade
2-1 vs. MUD
2-1 vs. Team America

Using:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Envelop
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage

19 Lands (8 fetch, 2 Trop, 2 Udg Sea, 2 Volc, 1 Bayou)

This iteration focused more on reactive play by moving TNN to the SB and playing Stifles. Bayou is much stronger than Taiga on all accounts as there are far more cards that require black mana than green mana.

Moving forward I really like the last deck's manabase and was really welcoming the Bayou. The first list I tried had Tombstalker which was an absolute bomb whenever I would land him against most decks but now that we have Treasure Cruise available, I will definitely be using that card as my new bomb. Stifle was a bit underwhelming overall and will probably make way for TC. With only Spell Pierce left as a reactive spell I believe TNN is much better than Clique as a mainboard card.

[Grizzlybeer]

I also have some results to post as I played 4c Delver decks over the past 3 weeks in various small tournaments. All 3 lists were different and the first one is more black heavy (more like the Grixis green thread). I finished 1st or tied for 1st in all 3 tournaments. Here are the results and the lists:

1st tournament (Treasure Cruise was not legal yet)

0-2 vs. BUG Landstill
2-1 vs. Miracle Control
2-1 vs. DnT
2-0 vs. Team America


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker
1 Liliana of the Veil

3 Spell Pierce
3 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pyroblast
2 Envelop
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dismember
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage

20 Lands (8 fetch, 3 Udg Sea, 2 Trop, 2 Volc, 1 Badlands)

This deck focused more on black than green and favored cards like Marsh Casualties over Golgari Charm, and Liliana over Diabolic Edict both in the main and the side.

2nd tournament (Treasure Cruise was not legal yet)

2-0 vs. UB Control w/ CounterTop
2-1 vs. Elves
2-1 vs. Deathblade

For this small tournament I was using the following configuration:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tarmogoyf

3 Spell Pierce
3 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard
2 Envelop
2 Pyroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Counterspell
1 Golgari Charm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Forked Bolt
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Vendilion Clique

20 Lands (8 fetch, 3 Udg Sea, 3 Trop, 2 Volc)

This was mostly a test run as I wanted to try out more mana and Nemesis > Goyf. It worked out fine but in the end I did return to 4 Goyfs.

3rd tournament (Treasure Cruise was legal)

2-0 vs. Esperblade
2-1 vs. MUD
2-1 vs. Team America

Using:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Envelop
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage

19 Lands (8 fetch, 2 Trop, 2 Udg Sea, 2 Volc, 1 Bayou)

This iteration focused more on reactive play by moving TNN to the SB and playing Stifles. Bayou is much stronger than Taiga on all accounts as there are far more cards that require black mana than green mana.

Moving forward I really like the last deck's manabase and was really welcoming the Bayou. The first list I tried had Tombstalker which was an absolute bomb whenever I would land him against most decks but now that we have Treasure Cruise available, I will definitely be using that card as my new bomb. Stifle was a bit underwhelming overall and will probably make way for TC. With only Spell Pierce left as a reactive spell I believe TNN is much better than Clique as a mainboard card.

It looks like all these lists are missing cards.

[Qweerios]

It looks like all these lists are missing cards.

Its because they are the cards that never change... but here they are anyways:

4 Ponder, 4 BS, 4 FoW, 4 Daze, 4 Bolts

[hofzge]

Here is my Treasure Cruise based take based on the Goat's suggestions:


3x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Spell Pierce

3x Ponder
4x Treasure Cruise

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Vendilion Clique

4x Misty Rainforest
1x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Taiga
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

Sideboard

1x Ancient Grudge
1x Dismember
1x Flusterstorm
1x Forked Bolt
2x Golgari Charm
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Spell Pierce
1x Sylvan Library
2x Thoughtseize

I cut one of the sacrisanct Ponders for the fourth Treasure Cruise. No idea if that is ok.

[the_goat]

I cut one of the sacrisanct Ponders for the fourth Treasure Cruise. No idea if that is ok.

I think 3 would be optimal number for Treasure Cruise...quite often you see 2 of them in one game and you barely manage to cast the second copy...
Ponder is one of those cards that are often "saving the boat" by digging 3 on top and eventually a 4th card post shuffle...

Another change I do not like much is the -1 submerge and -1 flusterstorm...both cards are too good to be removed...
submerge is a pseudo-removal that allows you to gain a lot of tempo...especially if you cast it in response of a fetch or in response to a shuffle effect...
flusterstorm is most of the times behaving like an hard counter...not only against ANT...it's good with S&T and reanimator...

Test your changes and let us know how it works for you!

[sawatarix]

@the goat: is it you,igor? :D

well written report,my current list is almost the same than yours.
I love to play it but everytime i go a tournament i prefer ant because of the different powerlevel :D

[Tormod]

IMO, Treasure Cruise renders Sylvan Library obsolete in this archetype.

[blablub]

With Treasure Cruise you can't play mongooses, do you all agree that goyf is the replacer? or someone tries Nemesis? for example 4 DRS, 4 Delver, 3 Nemesis. I'm not sure if its ok to play without shroud creatures, do you have thoughts?

[mog]

I think Tarmogoyf is the correct replacement for Mongoose. To be fair, I have not and will not test it with True-Name Nemesis because I believe it is too slow. I've been testing a variation of Treasure Cruise BURG using Tarmogoyf for the last few weeks with excellent results (including GPT and SCG IQ wins) but your mileage may vary. I have also included a 19th land consistent with other players in this thread though I continue to play Stifle.

[the_goat]

@the goat: is it you,igor? :D

well written report,my current list is almost the same than yours.
I love to play it but everytime i go a tournament i prefer ant because of the different powerlevel :D

@sawatrix: hello kai yes sir! it'e me

i found a couple of post from you and I recognized you too

IMO, Treasure Cruise renders Sylvan Library obsolete in this archetype.

@Tormod - treasure & library are two different approaches to library manipulation/card drawing...I would not say library is obsolete...the effect keeps repeating every round...while treasure let you draw 3 immediately...at virtually no cost...and this allows you to close the game faster (card advantage) and replace the top 3 for the next draw steps...I personally do not play library in my 75...test both of them and let us know!

With Treasure Cruise you can't play mongooses, do you all agree that goyf is the replacer? or someone tries Nemesis? for example 4 DRS, 4 Delver, 3 Nemesis. I'm not sure if its ok to play without shroud creatures, do you have thoughts?

@blablub - I would never play more than 1 nemesis - goyf is the creature to play in this deck - if opponent uses removal on it this means your delvers/shamans will finish the opponent. Nemesis cannot race a germ token or a bigger goyf...the philosophy of this deck is to be as much efficient as possible and nemesis often will sit there to prevent opponent from attacking...don't get me wrong in the right shell (mystic+equipments) is the creature you want to play...in the tempo strategy we try to follow no...

I think Tarmogoyf is the correct replacement for Mongoose. To be fair, I have not and will not test it with True-Name Nemesis because I believe it is too slow. I've been testing a variation of Treasure Cruise BURG using Tarmogoyf for the last few weeks with excellent results (including GPT and SCG IQ wins) but your mileage may vary. I have also included a 19th land consistent with other players in this thread though I continue to play Stifle.

@mog - do you mind sharing your 75?

[hofzge]

I think 3 would be optimal number for Treasure Cruise...quite often you see 2 of them in one game and you barely manage to cast the second copy...
Ponder is one of those cards that are often "saving the boat" by digging 3 on top and eventually a 4th card post shuffle...

Another change I do not like much is the -1 submerge and -1 flusterstorm...both cards are too good to be removed...
submerge is a pseudo-removal that allows you to gain a lot of tempo...especially if you cast it in response of a fetch or in response to a shuffle effect...
flusterstorm is most of the times behaving like an hard counter...not only against ANT...it's good with S&T and reanimator...

Test your changes and let us know how it works for you!

Thanks the_goat!
You were totally right on all accounts. I replaced the Cruise with the Ponder as you only need to draw 2 TCs to see you don't want that.

Also the the second Flusterstorm is back in. I would really like to play even a fourth REB if somehow possible.

I still don't like Submerge, but I added some earlier interaction with creatures as that will be more important going forward.

Here again a list:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Vendilion Clique

4x Daze
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Treasure Cruise

3x Abrupt Decay
4x Lightning Bolt

4x Misty Rainforest
1x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Taiga
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
1x Spell Pierce
2x Flusterstorm
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Forked Bolt
2x Golgari Charm
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Ancient Grudge

What are the best sideboard cards against Miracles? Sylvan Library or Bitterblossom or REBs?
Do we need more anti control stuff?

[the_goat]

What are the best sideboard cards against Miracles? Sylvan Library or Bitterblossom or REBs?
Do we need more anti control stuff?

Against Miracles
On the play - I side out 4 lightning bolt and 1 Force of Will - I bring in 2 REB 1 Pyroblast 1 Pierce 1 Fluster
On the draw - I side out 4 ligthning bolt only (we want FOW to counter turn 1 sensei's top - keep in mind Miracles should side out FOW as well and they do not play daze) and i bring in 2 REB 1 Pyroblast 1 Pierce

I do not play nor Library nor Bitterblossom so I do not know how good those cards are in sideboard.