I will note that it's worth remembering that Fact or Fiction has GROSS synergy with Dig Through Time / Treasure Cruise. If I were actively developing a "traditional blue deck powered by Veteran Explorers" I would start with a draw engine of 4 FoF + 4 Cruise and go from there. Put in a bunch of ramp and wincons, maybe 4 Force of Wills, and go from there.Originally Posted by uncletiggy
Fuck Brainstorm. Let's just Recall instead.
This shift in the meta has me brewing helm leyline combo in a nic fit shell, because hell why not be presideboarded vs more then half the field. I think bug is probably the right shell for it if not junk. Brainstorming away extraneous combo pieces seems good and four drops arent hard to land at all cut the curve down to four and go for the insta kill vs playing the attrition game.
Honestly? In my opinion? A one-shot draw three, even for U and 7 yardcards, is terrible for a control deck like most Nic Fit lists.
See, that's because our goal as a control deck is to drag the game out just long enough to gain a nigh-insurmountable advantage over the opponent. Before then, we risk letting them kill us by drawing three, and after that time, we risk letting them overcome our accumulated advantage over them. Really there is a small window of opportunity, and it's not worth reserving the deck space for it.
Now, Top and Jace 2.0 on the other hand are really good, because they are NOT one-shot card advantage tools, but multi-use card quality tools. Which is what Nic Fit (and other dedicated control decks) would be most interested in, as they enable a gradual accumulation of advantage over an opponent.
Conversely, Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time would be awesome in most kinds of aggro/temp/midrange shell, because they want to have an immediate advantage to fight our gradual accumulation.
So if Ancestral Recall was legacy legal, you wouldn't play it in a control deck because it's only a one time thing?
I know this sounds crazy because Jace over 5 turns gives you more cards than TC, but what if by the time you hit your 4th turn you could have reliably cast a second TC? Probably not then because Jace over 9 turns is better...
EDIT: Legacy not Modern
Last edited by Qweerios; 10-13-2014 at 03:19 PM.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
I really dont know how Id feel about Ancestral Recall in a Legacy control list. On one hand, its an absurdly powerful card for sure. On the other, the number of turns a control deck needs to survive in Vintage is significantly lower than that of Legacy thanks to mana rocks: a more apt card for Legacy control would be Library of Alexandria.
EDIT: Though that isnt dismissing the potential for single shot draw effects in control. After all, Mulldrifter was a thing back in LORALA Standard because it drew cards and had an evasive body.
How do you guys feel about Kitchen Finks in the BUG pod lists? I was thinking about dropping it for either Clique or TNN, either of which is better vs a lot of decks. I feel like the Burn matchup is already pretty favorable, and that's the main reason to keep Finks.
Huh? They don't have persist? I thought people played them for the value. Tnn in junk pod with sfm maybe. But I'm still confused.
Primary deck: Mud
Secondary deck: Burn
Building: Nic Fit
Kinda a silly Idea but what do you guys think of a 1 of Polukranos, World Eater MB as a GSZ target? A tutorable way to interact with delvers and elves that survives bolt. Most likely really bad but it is a thought.
You would need a lot of mana to do that. I don't think it to be realistic. Most games i have played i was able to build up 6/7 lands before the game was decided. Becides, Pernicious Deed is already doing this for a lot less mana and a lot faster. Although not searchable with Zenith.
Yesteryday i played a 22 player tournament with the JUNK Nic FIt list i was posting earlier this week. The results where a disaster and i wasn't thinking clearly making not the most efficient plays and had some bad guesses. Though the list felt very powerful and has potential being good. The results where 1-2 Drop (played a single elimination side event with some other players since we where out of prizes). List:
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 2 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Grave Titan
R 1: Elves!
Game 1 i didn't know what he was on and i went on playing ground combat, but it was elves. I wasn't really prepared for Elves, but had a decent clock, so i tried slowing him down and get there with Umezawa's Jitte. It was to late and Hoof showed up for lethal. Damn Wirewood Symbiote block tricks.
Game 2 i was able to land a T2 Teeg and a T3 PDeed. I held it back until i could land a Sun Titan and it was enough to stop them. I got him down to 2 life after attacking with SunTitan and blowing Deeds i then GSZ for Siege Rhino for lethal the same turn.
Game 3 i kept a sketchy ground combat hand and was able to land a Teeg and a Spirit of the Labyrinth (which was awesome against Elvish Visionary/Glimpse of Nature). But i never found a PDeeds to prevent him from hardcasting Hoof with 8 creatures online in the 5th turn in overtime...
R 2: Sneak/Show
Game 1 we got a deckcheck. Me deck was not alright. I was playing a bunch of foils, but the FNM foil Cabal Therapy's where to bend so i got a game loss and had to borrow some normal ones from another player. So i sat with the player and went to game 2 with no SB changes. I didnt know what he was on. The little bit of focus i had was gone after that...
Game 2 He started the game, went PDelta, Island, Ponder, Go. So i thought he might be on ANT. So i go Cabal Therapy, and named Brainstorm going safe. I saw Griselbrand, S&T, Sneak, FoW, Ancient Tomb. Damn. I had a Batterskull and aSword to Plowshares. He went S&T into Griselbrand and i dropped the BSkull. Next turn he untapped and attacked with Griselbrand. Tried to Plow it hoping he needed to draw 7, but had the second blue card for fow... And out of prizes....
R 3: UW Mill effect creature/control
Game 1 He FoW'd my DRS, he played BS/Ponder and played some creatures the made me put my top cards of my library into my graveyard. The effect was cumulative and had me put like 30 cards or so in the grave. I had an Eternal Witness into a Mealstrom Pulse and along with a Plow i was able to clear his board and Batterskull took over that game.
Game 2 went slower. He Dazed my DRS and i was stuck with 1 land and (luckily) a SDT. I took sooo long before i found more lands. Then i played a Spirit of the Labyrinth and the game was even slower. He used Path to Exile which gave me the Swamp i needed to get my game plan going. Luckiliy i drew into a second Abrupt Decay and a Bayou and could double deed his creatures and clear the board. He bounced one of hi creatures but BSkull could go ground combat mode and had me win.
R X: Mono B Smallpox, The Rack
This was a friendly match-up with the friend we went to the tourney with. He played DnT and made T8. Anyway he wanted to test his toy deck. And playing against this deck was interesting.
Game 1 he was able to wreck my hand, destroy everything i played and hold me down on mana. But Volrath's Stronghold with Eternal Witness nearly had me coming back. I was able to float a Sigarda with Top till i had the mana to cast it. Then i did and nearly got me that game, but Toxic Deluge on 5 was to much. He kept drawing the good stuff and the Mishra's Factories got him there.
Game 2 Started the same, but i was able to land multiple creatures. He mazed of ith one of them, but eventually landing a Sun Titan it was to much and he died...
Game 3 Started good for him, but somehow i was able to get some stuff online, but he got a Deluge and 2 The rack's. I was able to Get some life back with DRS and tried to one shot him with a Siege Rhino i put back on top with Stronghold, but he drew that one Wasteland and prevented me from casting it...
I will keep playing this deck to ectaully get better with it. It has awesome lines of play and puts up a good fight, which might even be better if i can just think ahead in the decision trees a bit deeper and be sharper.
Pros
*Sigarda, versus like nearly anything.
*Sun Titan. That card is soo good with all the low CMC permanents, especcially with PDeed. I like it better then PrimeTime. For it not being green is a downside, but somehow i kept seeing the card. Plus it is a longgame card anyway. Changes are you be seeing it.
*Maelstrom Pulse. I really like the card being able to hit multiples. It won the game against UW Mill effect and it would have been relevant against the multiple The Rack's.
*Veteran Explorer. Everytime i landed this card the manabase allowed me to go crazy. Even tho the opponent gets to land basics to. But it doesn't matter since we should be playing the bigger/better cards.
*Pernicious Deed. I am happy to not have gone 3x Thoughtseize instead. Actually i am thinking i want better access to this card by playing 4 or a way to get it faster.
Meh
*Spirit of the Labyrinth. I liked it and i still think it is meh. It did slow down the UW and the Elves player, but got removed easily. Need to play it more to get a better conclusive answer.
*Stoneforge Mystic. It can be soo slow. I am thinking about trying to cut the SFM package and go with something else. Really looking for something to make impact on the board. And while it sometime does it also often doesn't. SFM doens't really help against combo to..
*4x SDT, it felt as too much. Often having one is nice, but seeing two is not really nice. Also it think i will go back to 3 and get back the 3rd Veteran Explorer.
Cons
* No way of removing opposing lands. Maybe a one of Vindicate is mandatory here. Maze of Ith really slowed me down and had no interaction with it other then Sigarda's hexproof...
* The deck for not being fast enough to drop a quick Sigarda, because the manabase build-up felt a bit slow. Going back to 3 Veteran's might fix it.
*!! Foil bended cards....
Toughts to change the deck:
Cut the SFM package and instead:
3 Academy Rector
1 Moat
1 Recurring Nightmare
or
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate
(1 Reclamation Sage)
Last edited by Bobmans; 10-12-2014 at 11:58 AM.
Hey folks,
I've played a monthly tournament this week end with an Abzan Pod Fit.
Here are the results:
R1 Elves 2-0
R2 Patriot control 2-0
R3 BUG Delver with cruise 1-1
R4 BUG Delver with Bob 2-0
R5 Final against RUG 2-1
Went home with a tropical island for my troubles !
Cheers.
More detail on Elves and BUG/Cruise, please.
I'm lost in translation, Kevin, so excuse the following grammar thing...
R1 = elves
On the play G1= I kept a strong fair hand without knowing opp's deck. DRS, 2 fetchs, GSZ, Pod, AD, swamp.
The sequence was like
T1= fetch DRS
T2= Fetch + AD on T1 elf + GSZ @0
T3= Pod + crack DRS for SFM into Jitte (At this point I guess gaddock was a better target)
T4= Pod + crack SFM for Pontiff, sweeping his board and I won with an equipped jitte from there
On the draw G2= I kept a heavy discard hand which slowed him down including TS + cabal + veteran into broken things. He was winning the race at some point and I had to do a small trick activating SFM holding priority to get back BSK in hands to finally resolve SFM activated ability putting back BSK in play to answer a reclamation sage trigger and to not die on the next combat phase. Pod + BSK got eventually destroyed and the board state was like SoL, Gaddock, Ethersworn canonist + jitte in hand. Fortunately I drew Sigarda so I could connect with Jitte again and slowly grinded him down
Hot ! But nonetheless, happy.
On the draw R3 = BUG Delver but I put him on D&T
G1= I kept a slow hand and was crushed by magical christmas aggro land. By turn 6 I had to face 2 delver, 2 DRS, 2 Tarmo. At 7, I scooped as I needed an extra turn to take over the game but I was facing lethal on his turn so I did not give him to much information.
G2 = I went aggro and side out all discard + gaddock. I grinded him out. He resolved 3 TC during the game to finally realize that he could not just beat Sigarda. Unfortunately, he played very very slowly and time was called just before starting G3...
It's a 3/2 for 3 that you can sac once and gain a couple life, and it's always felt like a mediocre 3-drop, especially since I'm only running 3 pods. I'd rather have something I can pitch to force post-board and that has an effect I'm looking for more often. Clique is great vs Show & Tell and provides reasonable pressure, while TNN stays alive and also provides the same clock and can block 'Goyf.
Félicitation / Grats!
Can we have a list for more insight please?
TEAM MtG Berlin
Sure buddy, here it is:
http://www.legacy-france.org/index.php?showtopic=12315
Mid page. If you have any translation problems. Bang on my door :D
@Ralf,
How do you like the list? Did you like the tutor board? How do you like Wall of Blossoms? Lately I have been playing Elvish Visionary instead since I have faced the scenario where I needed my Wall to carry an equipment.
I recently had good results playing "Abzan" Pod lately. I have been slowly been moving away from it's namesake card however as I don't find Pod to be necessary in this deck to win. Pod serves the same role as a card like Sylvan Library but also forces us into a lot of cards we wouldn't play otherwise (Pontiff, Redcap, and Resto). Pod along with Resto, Redcap, and Pontiff are probably the cards I tend to side out the most in favor of Liliana.
Speaking of Liliana, I cannot stress the importance of this card in a deck playing 8 discard spells and 8 ramp spells. She is one of our most resilient threats and will be good in nearly all of our matches. If your early hand consists of ramp, you will end up with a devastating T2 Liliana. If your hand is mostly discard, you get to strip your opponents hand and establish dominance on the board and dictate hand sizes. The card is absolutely amazing against all of our bad matchups as well (Combo, Miracles, 12-Post). She is currently my #1 sideboard card as she replaces every dead card in the main. I really believe Liliana is stronger than Pod even in this deck because Pod forces us into bad cards while Liliana makes our core cards stronger albeit some minor dis-synergy with SFM.
Furthermore I noticed that every time Pod is a winning play, it is because I manage to Pod into Stoneforge and take the game away with Batterskull and excessive amounts of mana to move it around as I wish. Since SFM is more of a hay-maker than Pod in this deck, why not play 4? We get to play SoFaI mainboard against Nemesis rather than Pontiff. Similar to Pod, SoFaI is also a great way to convert copious amounts of mana into card advantage.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Hello Qweerios,
First of all things, thanks for sharing the list.
I won't speak too much about the list itself because I think I have far too little practise with it and my first judgments would be biased a lot.
Without any doubt, POD was definitely a winning play, all day long, although, I did win without it.
But every game was won on the back of Murderous Redcap which was the MVP of the day. OMG this card is broken with POD...
Lots of G2 & G3 were similar in the fact that I had to fight to resolve a POD to start the winning chain.
Most of them included the following sequence as I rarely had to start the pod chain from 1 CMC or 2 CMC creature:
1) POD is in the grave.
2) GSZ for witness grabbing POD back
3) Play POD, sac witness for MRC (murderous redcap), kill delver/whatever.
4) Eventually MRC got Sigarda & Thragtusk
SFM was meh.
I did play some, to just get it nuked and stared @ my hand with a jitte/BSK/SOFI for several turn.
I might have played conservative but most of the time I did not want to lose Jitte/sword to a decay without getting any value of it.
So every time I just waited until I could land Sigarda and attach an equipment onto it.
I played against fair decks the whole day (except Elves). Discard was sided out every time for more dudes and lilianas just to overload them with potential threat & annoyance (At least against BUG Delver). Against RUG, I got back therapies in because of stifle.
Never got the chance to play the tutor board. So I can't speak about it.
My build was a bit different from your latest version:
- 6 discards MD +2 in the side
- Heavy testing against UR delver/Burn proved that Finks has its slot MD, otherwise you are losing a good 10-15 % in the MU.
- 2 Veteran Explorer instead of only one because we NEED to ramp to do broken things and unfortunately DRS is KOS (killed on sight) most of the time against tempo whereas they have to walk into veteran.
POD might not be necessary but I cannot dismiss the fact that in a format such as legacy, the surprising factor created by POD is HUGE & real.
Lots of opponents where sweating hard everytime I resolved a POD just in case I had some broken combo in the deck...
No lucky topdecks whatsoever, just playing tight.
However, I'll agree with you, opponent scooped to Sigarda + something attached to it...
So, equipments are really mandatory.
But if I had to state anything after this, I got the gut feeling that we could cut/reduce the number of SFM instead, not POD.
Sidenote 1: Did not see the Wall of Blossom nor did I fetch for it once.
Sidenote 2: Funny stuff one of my play included a POD into resto angel on a just played thragtusk to win 10 life a turn + a token. WOW
The main reason that finks is good is that it keeps the pod chain going through removal (otherwise it can get 2 4 drops). In my experience Clique is also okay but TNN seem very weak. It doesn't generate value in the pod chain and I havn't been wanting to kill them with a 3/1 in my games.
Edit: Nice finish, Ralf.
That's a fair point. Have you made many changes to the deck since last year? Really love your list, by the way, I've been running it for a couple months now and have only really fiddled with the sideboard and added a reclamation sage. I'm strongly considering taking some iteration of it to GP NJ.
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