So, went 3-0 in our local tournament yesterday.
Faced UWR (2-0), ANT (2-0) and S&S (2-1).
First game I saw 3 Cabal Therapies and went comboing, second game again Therapies, but this time the whole playset. Pretty impressive. Dredgin is easy against empty hands, I'd say.
ANT, terrible MU, was pretty interesting. G1 my opponent kept a slow hand and was not able to find the kill before tokens and ichorids reached a conclusion. G2 my opponent on the play went unprotected Petal, Ritual, Ritual, Ad Nauseam. Response: Mindbreak Trap. Won some turn later with the undead army.
Last turn, Sneak & Show. G1 after several combat phases my opponent was at 1 life and me at 5, thanks to the Flying Spaghetti Monster; dreadreturning a Flayer was the simplest choice. G2 an early Cage leaded us towards G3, in which I had a Fow but no other blue cards in hand (revealed by a Probe). Some mind Jedi tricks, some Cabal Therapy and some slow dredging until mighty Nether Shadows sealed the deal.
I’ve tried the playsets of those shiny X mana artifacts and I’m pretty satisfied. Once a player slam a Cage which we aren’t able to counter, we could try to overwhelm him with tokens. I’d give it a try.
TEAM MtG Berlin
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
Originally Posted by phazonmutant
Just finished reading the whole thread. Took me a few of weeks but it was worth it
I started playing the deck for budget reasons (spy version obv) but fell in love with it and with all the passion you all guys put into it.
I'm now just 2 FoW away from having the full blue version. But still tinkering with the idea to keep the spy md and bring the whole U pack from the Side, even the riders. I know it's a waste of space but I want to give the full surprise at least for a couple tourneys
Anyway, thanks to all of you, specially those who've been around for a long time
Welcome to the archetype and have fun getting your last 2 FoWs. I have also flirted with the idea of running the Spy list with a transitional blue sideboard for game 2. Perhaps the more experienced Manaless players here can discuss why this will or will not work. If you try it out, please let us know how it goes!
DDD / Death & Taxes
Depending on your metagame (e.g. if you have a lot of STP against you... maybe be careful) you can indeed perfectly pull this off. I'm not an expert-expert, but I've noticed that you're very, very likely to win game 1. It's game 2 and game 3 that are the ones that matter. So if your metagame and sideboard space allows it, you might as well solidify your game 1 chances (even more), and go for a slower but more resilient build game 2 & 3.
Sure it could work, but it really comes down to how you construct your side as to whether it's worth it.
The whole point of the blue side is to increase the options in your side by running as many blue cards in the main as you can.
After running the blue side for well over a year now, my thought is that regardless of which side-plan you run, I'd rather have a way to handle their sideboard options coming in rather than surprise them.
Lol. StP is the least of our problems. The turn you go off, you have no problem if the Spy were to be StP'd and, most often before you go off (specifically when facing anything playing blue) you strip/explore their hand with Cabal Therapy anyway. Heck, after you flip your library you can fire off 4 Cabal Therapy to catch anything that'd mess with the Flayer. I don't see the problem.
If they manage to play another certain white card... well... yeah... that's a different story.
SCG is coming to my home town of Minneapolis. I've been playing around with delver shenanigans for the past 6 months or so. Looking to head back to the deck where lands don't exist for the occasion. Is the Blue Manaless still a potentially viable deck? Or was that just a flash in the pan?
I think the consensus is that the blue version is the most solid because of the ability to fight the hate and some really bad matchs
But it has yet to get validation in the form of big tournament results. In that regard, spy all in lists have been better
Fair deal. I may dust off the old Lion's Eye Diamonds then.
Well, to be fair, its been a while since I've seen Led dredge do well in tournaments
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14818&iddeck=109765
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14751&iddeck=109244
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14743&iddeck=109070
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14558&iddeck=107590
Just counting tournaments with 100 people+
With the rise of Treasure Cruise and U/R Delver how would you say this affects the meta with regards to graveyard hate?
UR Delver has a fair amount of counterspells and cantrips as well as a fairly fast clock backed up by burn to kill us or to kill their own guys and deal with Bridges.
From what I've seen a lot of UR Delver lists are preparing for the mirror cutting Dazes for Pyroblasts which is good for us as Pyroblast only hits Gitaxian Probe.
As a deck whose success is tied to the amount of graveyard hate present how do you think things will be in the coming months?
Probably less Relics and more Crypts but beyond that I don't know.
"If we don't know what we are doing, the enemy certainly can't anticipate our future actions!"
-Anonymous
I feel like cage will be the predominate GY hate which we can smoke that with Shoal/FOW easily enough. Its the public enemy #1 DRS that i'm mostly concerned about.
? Cage does nothing against Treasure Cruise... I feel like Tormod's Crypt or just leylines are more likely to enter the game. Tormod's Crypt doesn't slow a player down mana-wise and doesn't need to be a dead card later, though Leyline is...
While I do like the power and flexibility of the Blue Board (4 FoW + 4 Shoal) being able to be anti-hate as well as hate itself is nice. My current sideboard is pretty much all combo-hate + Contagions for DRS/Scooze.
What do you cut from the main deck from siding 8 cards in? Right now I usually only bring in about 4-6 cards depending on the match up cutting my Shambling Shells, the worst dredger, most frequently. I know a lot of people who run Chancellor of the Annex cut that first when sideboard, but I like being able to blank my opponent's turn 1 play especially if I'm set on the play after winning game 1. Though if I have counters I wouldn't need Chancellor post-board doing the same thing. I don't like the idea of bringing in 8 counters + 4 removal spells vs a deck with DRS it dilutes the deck too much.
What do most people's Blue Board look like? How do you fill up the other 7 slots?
"If we don't know what we are doing, the enemy certainly can't anticipate our future actions!"
-Anonymous
I stand corrected
No Shaman,No Discard, No Combo? Cut the Cancellors.
If you wanna grind, try out some numbers of Dread Returns, one Phanta maybe, the mentioned 4th Shell. Use the shave tech. Against really fast decks, I usually board out my Shadows first.
Heya guys how're you doing, today I could have made 1st on this GP New Jersey trial, but I misplayed :/. Because of all I've learnt from you guys and to share experiences, I won't do anything less than get a write up for you... a long one. Sorry for that =/. EDIT: added youtube links, and my god my Spanish is horrible -.-
GP Trial New Jersey
We had a 5 round GP New Jersey trial today in our local shop Retromex at the big central park (La Alameda) in Mexico City here, where I reached to the 2nd place :-).
Decklist:
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
3 Phantasmagorian
2 Shambling Shell
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Whirlpool Rider
4 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Force of Will
2 Balustrade Spy
SB: 3 Disrupting Shoal
SB: 2 Force of Will
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Balustrade Spy
SB: 1 Shambling Shell
SB: 2 Whirlpool Rider
SB: 1 Contagion
SB: 1 Phantasmagorian
Decklist explanation:
I wanted to try a different route here. Since I "always" win game one, I want to try to put sideboard elements into it while still ensuring victory in game 1 (i.e. if you usually beat the opponent 10 floors into the ground, why not use your energy differently if 1 floor into the ground is enough), mostly in this:
3 Phantasmagorian instead of 4: I feel that Phantasmagorian is great, but not always necessary: usually just discarding a dredger will do just perfectly. If you have something in your hand that needs to go to the graveyard, you can still do it 8th card-in-hand end of turn, or with a Phantasmagorian that comes later / Cabal Therapy. Against DRS, I kept one in the SB for safety.
2 Force of Will instead of 3-4: If we can beat someone to brambles with 0 FoW mainboard, why not beat someone solidly KO while at the same time saving up 2 SB spots.
2 Balustrade Spy and 2 Whirlpool Rider instead of 4 Whirlpool Rider: Balustrade Spy is definitely more solid considering Phantasmagorian shenanigans as well as a Ichorid target, while Whirlpool Rider is great for FoW. I liked this setup, definitely because it gave me a more solid chance against combo (being certain about a kill right here right now). On the other hand Whirlpool Rider was amazing against DRS where the opponent would always keep DRS open until my end of turn to wait for the Flayer. Whirlpool Rider is great if having 4/5th of your library in your graveyard is almost a certain win, but 5/5 of your library in your graveyard is plain death.
Sideboard: don't mind it too much, I didn't have mindbreak traps. It was mostly for flexibility options. Shambling Shell in case I didn't have enough dredgers (2 Shambling Shells wasn't a problem), 1 Balustrade Spy to go all in harder against decks on a clock, 2 Whirlpool Rider to go all in harder against a clock and/or fuel for my counters, Phantasmagorian against Deathrite Shaman/Surgical Extraction and the like.
Round 1: Vs Alberto, Thalia Goblins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NrqgsDqc2A
First game, he doesn't get mana quickly for Thalia (which he accidentally shows via mountain, wasteland, Thalia... oops) and I get to start and continue dredging via Street Wraith, and Gitaxian Probe, getting the necessities for comboing out. A typical "goldfish match" - playing my own game, without anything to really bother me, but do me some damage. EDIT: I forgot, I didn't even get to playing that Probe, he scooped before I could.
SB:
-2 Balustrade Spy
-4 Chancellor of the Annex
-1 Nether Shadow
+2 Force of Will
+3 Disrupting Shoal
+2 Whirlpool Rider
SB reasoning: Whirlpool Rider in for Balustrade Spy as explained above, Nether Shadow I thought would be a bit slow (and cutting one isn't that bad), Forces in against possible Rest in Peace, and Thalia, as well as Disrupting Shoal. Chancellor out was because he can throw a cheap goblin and then play RiP anyway his second turn, or he can wait a turn and still be really aggressive. Chancellor wouldn't mean the difference between life and death here. Also, the other 3 (if I start with just one in hand) would be dead cards later.
SB reflection: Taking out the Chancellors was a good idea, Nether Shadow seems.. okay, with Thalia out it's good to have him, with the chance of RiP without counter he's not worth anything.
Game 2 (11:00 on youtube), he starts (which he later tells me he shouldn't have, so I can't draw, discard, dredge - only one other player did the same) he drops with Cavern of Souls. Instead I get to go fast via Street Wraith, get a Narcomoeba in play in my second turn, and Nether Shadow + Ichorid in my graveyard. I face off against Thalia, [cards]Goblin Lackey[cards], Goblin Rabblemaster, Goblin Warchief, and I win the arms race via Ichorids, a Narcomoeba, and a Nether Shadow (I end up at 5 when he dies).
Round 2: vs Cesar, BUG
He starts, throwing down a DRS. Luckily I have my Phantasmagorian, which gives me some options (Golgari Thug, Stinkweed Imp and X). It's hard for me to start going because he keeps slowing me down with DRS and I just don't get what I need. He counters my first Dread Return (casted blindly considering I'm on the clock), I try to get some shenanigans in with Ichorid and Nether Shadow, but he annoys me with Stifle on Ichorid, removing Nether Shadow with DRS, and something I forgot - all in one turn. He has to make some decisions on what to remove, but in the end my Bridge From Belows stay, and dredgers and Ichorids mostly go. I end up being able to combo him down with a second Dread Return.
SB:
-2 Balustrade Spy
-2 Gitaxian Probe
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound
-1 Dread Return
-1 Nether Shadow
-1 Dread Return
+2 Force of Will
+3 Disrupting Shoal
+1 Phantasmagorian
+2 Whirlpool Rider
SB reasoning: two Gitaxian Probes out because i want to avoid easy targets for Daze, I wanted rather to focus on uncounterable threats. Otherwise.. I don't really know what I was thinking :/. Obviously I wanted to have some fuel against his counters, considering his DRS (and maybe Scavaging Oozes) would keep me on a clock. Plus the Phantasmagorian vs DRS.
SB reflection: I am still having a hard time deciding what to side out, and I obviously did some skimming here. Nether Shadow is slow at times, Dread Return should probably have been something else because it's always a game-ending threat with the right circumstances. Keeping Chancellor in was amazing, to give myself some time.
I start with Chancellor in hand, he throws a Delver of Secrets, and throws down a DRS next turn (followed by another one 4 turns later). I decide not to counter it with Force of Will (I also let a Tarmogoyf resolve), because I want to be able to counter one of his, him throwing me a clock anyway graveyardwise. This turns out to be a good choice: IIRC he uses a Flusterstorm on a Cabal Therapy, and I can Dread Return -> Whirlpool Rider most of my library in my graveyard, countering his Daze. There was some confusion because we both forgot the lifegain from his two DRS, and in one turn (when he remembers), he gains 8 life... I wasn't sure about this ruling, but the judge said so. I want to Dread Return my Flayer of the Hatebound, but he removes it with DRS. I proceed with the Bridge from Belows - he has a Tarmogoyf out, I have 13 tokens, 3 Nether Shadows, and 2 Ichorid against his 25 hp, Tarmogoyf, and 2 active Deathrite Shamans, but decide to wait to kill him off in one go the next turn with more tokens, exactly 29 in one go.
Round 3 vs Luis, Midrange
I start with a Phantasmagorian, dredger, and Chancellor in hand, he plays around it (but loses time) and gets a Deathrite Shaman down. However, via two Bridge from Belows, an Ichorid returned and hitting a Narcomoeba when dredging, using Cabal Therapy on myself for Dread Return, I get two tokens which I can use together with Ichorid to revive Chancellor of the Annex - he calls for the second match.
SB:
+ 1 Phantasmagorian
+1 Contagion
+1 Balustrade Spy
-2 Force of Will
-1 Nether Shadow
SB reasoning: you guys must go crazy seeing how I sideboard. My thoughts were: getting rid of Force of Will because if he plays Leyline of the Void: it doesn't help me, and his other threats I can play around if I'm fast enough - or I can use contagion for that, considering I have way more black spells. The extra Balustrade Spy was to increase my chances to combo off (considering I'm on a clock with DRS and he doesn't have counters).
SB reflection: it turned out that he played 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 1 Nihil Spellbomb, and 1 Tormod's Crypt. Ouch. Always expect hate, although I was lucky here.
The second match I cannot really recall, I think I comboed off pretty easily. Only notable thing is that I used Cabal Therapy on myself to get Flayer of the Hatebound in my graveyard. Pretty standard, but I love doing that.
Round 4: Cesar, Affinity
We get a deckcheck, and even though earlier the judge looked at my 2 deck box and said "make sure you have your deck in 1 box next time", he did a "boxcheck" 1 round later and gave me a gameloss because I had a 5th Force of Will (in a different sleeve, for trading) in the box. Ugh.
We proceed and the game seems to be going quite well: I slow him down with Chancellor of the Annex. He gets an Etched Champion, I build up a token base with Ichorids, and get him down to 3. I'm at 12, he would get me down to about 4 life with his Etched Champion and Cranial Plating and.... topdecks another Cranial Plating. Oh well.
Round 5: Cesar, Imperial Painter (decided to 1-1 so we both get into top 8)
He is just too fast. We played 4.5 matches for fun, and with Ensnaring Bridge, siding out Blood Moons and the versatility and resilience of his deck and the speed: it's difficult to win. In the end it was 1-1 (2-0 and 0-2), mostly having difficulties with his Red Elemental Blasts and Pyroblasts when he tries to put down a Painter. This deck packs hate.
Knock-out rounds:
Quarter finals, top 8 vs Mager, BUReanimator
I get him the first game where we both make a terrible mistake: he tries to reanimate my first discarded Golgari Grave-troll with Animate Dead - while he had no creatures in his graveyard. To make matters worse, I Force of Will it. What-the-hell? He takes out some dredgers by using up two more Animate Dead on Golgari Thug and Stinkweed Imp, hoping for an Entomb (or anything like that), but he doesn't and I combo out with Balustrade Spy.
I totally forgot writing down what I sideboarded here, but it looked a bit like this:
+ 2 Force of Will
+ 1 Disrupting Shoal
+ 1 Ravenous Trap
+ 3 Faerie Macabre
+ 3 Whirlpool Rider
- 2 Balustrade Spy
- 4 Nether Shadow
- 1 Shambling Shell
- 2 Cabal Therapy
??
SB reasoning: Nether Shadow is too slow, if I can play Cabal Therapy, he is already having enough trouble and I'm on steam anyway, and I can perfectly disrupt his plays. Disrupting Shoal is too much of a miss here sometimes I felt considering the mana costs.
SB reflection: Disrupting Shoal would have been great against 8 of his reanimation spells (Exhume and Animate Dead), but honestly I just did not know what to take out.
Game 2:I can't remember a lot of this match, except that he was.. fast. He gets a griselbrand in his graveyard quickly, he searches for an Anger, attacks with [cards]Griselbrand[cards], draws another 7, finds his guns and Entombs an Elesh Norn which gets resurrected. Game over.
Game 3: I start with a.. I think a Stinkweed Imp in my graveyard, and two Street Wraiths in my hand. To keep my tempo up I decide to bait a possible Surgical Extraction with a Street Wraith, and I do get it. In response, I use my second (crowd goes wild). I get a good start with a Cabal Therapy, start beating him with Ichorid, and I still have a Ravenous Trap in my hand. When he is at 13 he gets his griselbrand on, Entombs an Elesh Norn but doesn't have anything to reanimate her. I cast Ravenous Trap at the end of his turn (considering Lotus Petals, Entomb and Elesh) and... it gets Dazed. My dredge however the next turn is amazing, and I combo him down.
Semi-finals: Rodrigo, Burn http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XbSt-USB5E
We decide to split, which I do under one condition: play it out. He has a flash start with T1 Monastery Swiftspear, T2 Monastery Swiftspear and Suspend Rift Bolt. I take the turn with 13 life, and get up to tempo with a Gitaxian Probe, seeing Gunshot, Fireblast, Lightning Bolt. Then I dredge a Narcomoeba, and with a Bridge from Below in my graveyard, a Phantasmagorian in my graveyard and Cabal Therapy in hand and one in Graveyard, I put my second Cabal Therapy in my graveyard with Phantasmagorian, and Therapy out the Fireblast and Lightning Bolt. He draws into Chain Lightning (although it could have been any of the burn spells he had). Rift Bolt, 13->10. Chain Lightning, 10->7. Gunshot, 7->6, and the two 4/5 Monastery Swiftspears finish me off.
SB:
+1 Contagion
+ 2 Force of Will
- 2 Nether Shadow
- 1 Gitaxian Probe
SB reasoning: I thought he might not see the Contagion coming for his Swiftspears, though chances are I can't even kill even just one with it. Force of Will against the staying threats, and the Nether Shadows are just slow. I don't know why I took Gitaxian Probe out, it doesn't make sense.
SB reflection: I should have bordered in Whirlpool Rider without taking Balustrade Spy out, I think. With his clock but close to free reign, I should focus on comboing out asap. Again, no idea what to side...
Game 2 (Youtube 10:00), He throws a Tormod's Crypt to Chancellor, and starts off with a Monastery Swiftspear, T2 Eidolon. I get an amazing start with at the end of my T2 (with Street Wraith and Probe) an Ichorid used for Cabal Therapy, Narcomoeba in play, and in my graveyard a Nether Shadow, 2 Bridges, Dread Return, He gets me down to 10 with mostly Eidolon of the Great Revel and a Monastery Swiftspear, and I combo him out then with Balustrade Spy. I'm editing this, back then I didn't even realize that that was a T2 kill.
Game 3, (Youtube 21:00) he starts with a T2 Eidolon, T3 Goblin Guide, after which I have a "lucky" dredge with after a Street Wraith having 3 Bridge from Below in my graveyard but no creature to do anything with it. The next turn he throws a Lightning Bolt at his own Goblin Guide to get rid of the bridges, but I manage to get a Dread Return out two turns later on a Balustrade Spy with a Nether Shadow, Ichorid and Narcomoeba, turning 3 Narcomoebas into my graveyard to finish it.
Finals: Victor, Storm (the guy going to New Jersey)
The first game he delays me a ton with Duress, Thoughtseize, and Cabal Therapy, but I do the same to him with 4 (!) Cabal Therapies while beating him with Ichorid. When he's at 9 and in topdeck mode, I manage to get Dread Return casted on Flayer of the Hatebound, and sacrificing him to another Dread Return without deck turners in my graveyard.
SB:
+2 Whirlpool Rider
+2 Force of Will
+1 Disrupting Shoal
-3 Nether Shadow
-2 Balustrade Spy
SB reasoning: I feel like Nether Shadow again is too slow here, and I need to focus on disruption.
SB reflection: I should have boarded in 2 more Disrupting Shoals to focus countering Infernal Tutor. I don't really have experience playing against storm, but you'll read this later on.
Game 2: Youtube 16:25 He went so fast this time. Second turn, he has a Lotus Petal, and plays a Lion's Eye Diamond. I feel the need to throw a Force of Will at it, he just plays another one, and Infernal Tutors his way to his combo. Darn! Learned something here.
Game 3: Youtube 23:20 I boarded in 2 more shoals for.. I don't know! What should I take out! He starts disrupting my every turn again starting out well since he puts me on the play. He can see my Disrupting Shoal, Narcomoeba, Force of Will, and Whirlpool Rider sitting in my hand. He first forces out the Force of Will by casting Ad Nauseum, and obviously seeing my hand (with Gitaxian Probe) but not finding an answer yet, I'm not finding my creatures. I guess I should not have taken out so many Nether Shadows? He later finds his answer in Lion's Eye Diamond, mana fixers, and hardcasted Past in Flames - picking my hand apart all again - and discarding an Infernal Tutor with his LED.
It was a great ride, I learned a lot, though I really need to work on my sideboarding. If your head hurts seeing this, then good! Tell me what you think!
Also, the deck is a blast to play.
PS the semi-finals and the finals are probably recorded and will be put up somewhere coming week, if anyone is interested
Last edited by Daize; 10-31-2014 at 02:38 PM.
Congrats and thanks for the report! I am interested in seeing the finals.
DDD / Death & Taxes
Congratulations on the result!
On the list: i wouldn't cut the 4th phantasmagorian. Deathrite shaman is one of the few cards that can make you lose game one, so having at least 12 answers to it seems the minimum, to me. Force of Will is not good at dealing with it.
On the sideboarding strategies:
Match 1: seems fair.
Match 2: i would not side in shoal. It's bad at dealing with cage, and most lists don't play more than two of those. Force is fine, but i would not cut Gitaxian Probe. You can blind therapy before casting it to make sure it resolve. I'd have left in Nether Shadow and 2 Probes.
Match 3: i don't think you need more DR targets. They have DRS to weaken Dread Returns and you already have enough targets for that.
Match 5: siding versus reanimator is really complicated. Probably doing +2 Rider +2 Shoal instead of +3+1 is safer. You aren't going to win if you don't stop him from comboing anyway.
Match 6: as you said, it was probably better to keep probe in.
Match 7: Disrupting Shoal > Whirlpool Rider. Chancellor is stellar as a DR target in this matchup, whirlpool rider often becomes unnecessary: i usually leave only one in. Flayer is not necessary, either: If you resolve a DR on rider, reanimating 1/2 chancellors + therapies is more than enough. You win anyway without dedicating a slot for a card that's dead in a lot of situations.
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