[Deck] The Rock

[tescrin]

This is a great way to put it. Like Meddling Mage, it's great against combo decks, but we have cards that are better against combo decks. In fair matchups, he's miserable. Too easily outclassed in combat and doesn't hit the top of the deck for removal.

I really think you need more practice with the card. IME, Any deck with less than 8 removal has seemed to have big problems with Sculler. I've been able to consistently gain card advantage against fair decks; including BUG Delver, D&T, UR Delver.

In my own experience sitting across from the card against a local DGA opponent; the card is very obnoxious to have to kill unless you have a Lily ready to go where Sculler is their new-found board position; but that's true of basically all creatures and in this case Sculler can take her from your hand.

[Madmankevinx]

ack! removed for being in the wrong thread.

[sdematt]

Since this deck has only been doing okay lately, I've been doing some playing of other decks and I've been reading and thinking.

The most popular colours right now are Blue and Red, and like people have been saying, being in Black doesn't give you much. Right now, Liliana isn't even that great, nor is Hymn or Dark Confidant. The real question is, if we keep playing the same 60 of cards that aren't good in the metagame, are we going to put up results? The answer is likely yes if your local meta is soft, or you're a good player. However, having played Junk Fit more than a few times online, the colours are viable. I think the cards we're playing right now are just on the cusp and maybe it's worth testing. And not whether or not we should play 2 Sylvans or 3.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Lingering Souls
2 Siege Rhino

3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Sylvan Library
2 Phyrexian Arena

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath

SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Absolute Law
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives

What in the hell am I doing? I'll explain.

Even though Deathrite is only okay, I still want to keep this guy for obvious reasons. We need Turn 1 interaction.

Goyf, even though he doesn't get past tokens, is still very good. He's a play I want most of the time against UR because a 4/5 usually blocks Swiftspear without worry.

Stoneforge is again, very strong. Nothing to talk about here.

I've upped the Lingering Souls count. It gives us a lot of action especially against Miracles, and it allows us to go control against the other midrange decks, and it gums down the Delver deck. Fork Bolt sucks, but whatever.

Siege Rhino is a card that I said was perhaps too overcosted for Legacy, and now I'm turning around and playing 4 in Nic Fit. This deck isn't Nic Fit, but I'm surviving until Turn 4 very often. He's essentially an overcosted Goyf, but he does swing life nicely, blocks Batterskull, and tramples through tokens. UR actually cannot beat this guy. I like him because he has a ton of play, and sometimes draining for 3 is a kill in the making, especially dropping him post combat. He's a post-combat Bolt they don't see coming.

If we're stretching the game to go longer, we need manipulation and draw. What people need to realize is that Top is a very good card. However, you want to use every mana every turn. You don't have time in the early game to spin your wheel (or Top) and hope for the best. You don't have a Miracle card to get you out of a situation. However, do realize every card you have is better than the Delver decks. They have to throw value away, literally into the bin, to get value. They have to chuck away Brainstorms, Ponders, and whatnot to even attack with anything relevant or create some tokens. We have cards, not air. Because I want to try cutting Confidant, we need an alternate card draw engine. 4 Sylvan is too much since Decay is decreasing in format penetrance and multiples don't do much. Enter Phyrexian Arena. Back before SCG and even Dark Confidant, I used to play this card and it was stellar. In fact, it still is stellar. There are decks where T3 this will be better than Liliana, and it still can come down on turn 2. Plus, since our average CMC is increasing (as well as the creatures are larger), we would be losing more like to Dark Confidant (or for that matter, the enchantment version...). Thus, I want to try it out. 1 life for 1 card is quite good, and you still have Sylvan like we did before.

Why not 3 arena? I'm trying it out. Numbers are subject to change; you'll also notice total discard went back up to 6 with 3 Therapy since you're running 3 Souls now. If that isn't required, then we'll see.

As for the board, Meddling Mage is back out. There's not enough combo in the metagame and naming Cruise isn't enough. Carpet is much, much better against the Delver strategies. Absolute Law is great because it means they essentially can't bolt out Goyfs, you get to block swiftspears all day, swing past them, etc. Is it good enough? Unknown. Maybe it'll turn into Timely, maybe it'll turn into Thrun. It's there to consider.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Disagree? Agree?

EDIT: Also, holy fuck the primer is 4 years old. I'll update it on my exam break.

-Matt

[tescrin]

EDIT: Also, holy fuck the primer is 4 years old. I'll update it on my exam break.

It's funny looking back how much information was incorrect or just sounds weird. (Discussion on Knight, mentions of CA where it isn't, things like that.) You were big on KotR and Top, but less so now. Still, rockin' job past-matt.

I've thought about typing a few ideas in response; the basic one is that I think Maverick is looking more Junky now a days (DRS, Decay) and that the plan that we have enough "must-kills" to land a board presence is unfortunately misguided now. My current config:
4 DRS
3 SFM
4 Goyf
3 Sculler
4 Bob
+ spells (2-4 Lily, depending how I'm feeling.)

Even with that; I was 1-for-1'd into oblivion by a Patriot Snapcaster build. It's great for decks with lower removal counts, but I think had Mom been in the deck; I could've gained an edge. My build will likely become more mavericky. I've been off of souls for awhile, so maybe I should give them a try instead of Mom again, but Mom has that nice DRS feeling of "Answer or have problems" and fits the theme of the deck. Souls, while great, goes against the theme and offers up prime removal targets. We'll see..

I think the "Junk" version of Maverick will end up being Goyf vs. KotR and GSZ vs. Bob or some such, with Discard taking the spot of GSZ targets.

Still, I'm brewing with Thopter Foundry in BUG and Esper right now; "I've had it with these mother-fuckin' Miracles on this mother-fuckin' plane."

EDIT: Here, I've been contemplating Bob as well, mostly because his value takes a turn to come around and the amount of 1-CMC removal, Snapcasters, and Burn cards running around are making it difficult.

[maharis]

I really like this build, Matt. I was wondering where this deck would end up after I had been seeing and playing against Modern Junk decks with no Bobs, 4 Rhinos, and 4 Oozes. Liliana is still a little more functional in Modern than Legacy, but I love Phyrexian Arena as a replacement for her and Bob here. Unfortunately Treasure Cruise has pushed Dark Confidant out of the game in every relevant format. I don't want TC to be banned, but Bob needs some help soon. Anyway, Arena is very elegant — difficult to kill, can come down on turn 2 with a DRS/Arbor, and left unchecked can win the game. Like you point out, our cards are probably actually better than the average U tempo or midrange deck. They excel at finding answers, though, and we have to keep up.

Which takes us to Siege Rhino. I understand why we all thought 4 mana (specifically 1WBG, which isn't exactly easy to cast) was too much for Legacy. But Rhino really is the full package. Does something when it comes into play, requires an immediate, narrow answer (there really aren't many cards that can kill it in Magic, let alone playable in Legacy), and is a fast, evasive clock. The thing I love the most about it here is that even if it's hit with an STP, you've gained 7 life off the thing... which is an extra two cards off Sylvan Library. Green Sun's Zenith for it is nasty. Getting a sword on it is ridiculous. The best part is that's it's a multi-format all-star, up to a 4-of in the two biggest constructed formats and relevant here... and it's FALLING in price! $15 or less shipped for a set is crazy, thank you fetchlands and limited players.

I'm not sure about SoFaF mainboard... I guess if you have a lot of Elves and other BGx decks in your meta it's good. I feel like if you're not playing Batterskull (which is defensible), SoLaS might be better since it protects against STP and Batterskull... SoWaP also guards against STP while swinging past Elemental tokens and quickening your clock against people holding countermagic or extra cantrips/lands post-Cruise. The last couple times I've had a SoFaF against BGx they just decay it and move on anyway... Dryad Arbor vigilance is fun but tough to achieve when they have access to Wasteland and Decay. It puts a real beating on Elves though, I almost like it more than Jitte against that deck. You could also play another GSZ or extra disruption in that slot.

Count me in the camp that Absolute Law isn't necessary in the board... Let them bolt out your Goyfs, you just have more threats. Souls + Equipment fly over Elemental tokens anyway. That slot seems like it would be better served as the SoFaF, some sort of grave hate card for combo decks (Cage or a Spellbomb/Crypt effect), another piece of combo hate like Canonist, or a Council's Judgment for the odd S&T deck or TNN.

Anyway, really cool build, I hope it starts to deliver some results. Also, good luck on your exams!

[Mr. Safety]

It's funny looking back how much information was incorrect or just sounds weird. (Discussion on Knight, mentions of CA where it isn't, things like that.) You were big on KotR and Top, but less so now. Still, rockin' job past-matt.

I've thought about typing a few ideas in response; the basic one is that I think Maverick is looking more Junky now a days (DRS, Decay) and that the plan that we have enough "must-kills" to land a board presence is unfortunately misguided now. My current config:
4 DRS
3 SFM
4 Goyf
3 Sculler
4 Bob
+ spells (2-4 Lily, depending how I'm feeling.)

Even with that; I was 1-for-1'd into oblivion by a Patriot Snapcaster build. It's great for decks with lower removal counts, but I think had Mom been in the deck; I could've gained an edge. My build will likely become more mavericky. I've been off of souls for awhile, so maybe I should give them a try instead of Mom again, but Mom has that nice DRS feeling of "Answer or have problems" and fits the theme of the deck. Souls, while great, goes against the theme and offers up prime removal targets. We'll see..

I think the "Junk" version of Maverick will end up being Goyf vs. KotR and GSZ vs. Bob or some such, with Discard taking the spot of GSZ targets.

Still, I'm brewing with Thopter Foundry in BUG and Esper right now; "I've had it with these mother-fuckin' Miracles on this mother-fuckin' plane."

EDIT: Here, I've been contemplating Bob as well, mostly because his value takes a turn to come around and the amount of 1-CMC removal, Snapcasters, and Burn cards running around are making it difficult.

Your core is the same as mine, only I opt for 2 scullers rather than 3. I've played up to 4 and as little as 2.

The problem, if it is indeed a problem, is the unholy clog at 2 mana. If I add abrupt decay and library it just gets worse. I'm not saying its wrong, just wonky sometimes.

I like Knight as a two-of, because I have an unnatural affinity for Volrath's Stronghold and Cabal Pit. VS helps grind out long games, and supplemented by the souls army (three copies) makes for a good amount of inevitability. Pit kills a lot of threats right now.

The numbers that constantly change in my list are sculler, knight, and one-mana discard.

I'm not sure I can let go of Bob and liliana yet. They are still just amazingly powerful cards.

[maharis]

I've been brewing with Courser of Kruphix a bit as a Bob replacement. Very good with library manipulation, and essentially a GSZ-able Phyrexian Arena. I also have been liking a 2 SDT 2 Sylvan split because they're not as bad together in your opener as one is in multiples. If you open with SDT and Library, you drop Top, then when you can land Library, you do that, flip your Top and shuffle it away.

My current build:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Lingering Souls
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Council's Judgement
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Scrubland

This is because I only have one Courser. It's overperformed so much though that I'm considering dropping the Knight plan and adding more Coursers, Siege Rhinos, and maybe a Doran, plus more GSZ. Doran would synergize with every creature in the deck. The other option is to play Tombstalker, because Courser will help me fill my GY with fetchlands.

[sdematt]

Doran and Siege Rhino sounds like a wet dream to me.

-Matt

[pettdan]

I found this comparison good fuel for thought, perhaps you will too. I'm brewing with a Nic Fit Build. It's quite similar.

Differences in the core of the deck:
-1 deathrite, -1 Thoughtseize; +2 Veteran Explorer
-2 Stoneforge Mystic; +2 GSZ
-3 thoughtseize; +3 Cabal Therapy
-1 Wasteland; +1 Gaea's Cradle
And a few other rearrangements of the land configuration..

And what I consider choices due to personal preferences, strategic approach and/or meta based decisions:
-2 StP; +2 Liliana
-1 SoF&I; +1 Batterskull
-2 KotR; +2 Siege Rhino
-1 Judgment; +1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 SDT; +1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Wasteland; +1 Vault of the Archangel
61st card: Sigarda (or a land actually)

I'm testing sb wasteland + loam.

The main reason for such a change (I'm trying to motivate it for myself, too) is the increased consistency and flexibility of the GSZ package: offering extra mana development t1-2 (t1 arbor, t2+ deathrite/explorer), extra gravehate (ooze/shaman), extra combo hate (teeg, possibly kotr+karakas/bojuka/waste), extra lifegain (rhino/ooze/courser etc), extra removal (Qasali), extra beater (Sigarda/Rhino), extra card advantage engine (Courser).

Wasteland seems less relevant in a cruise meta so putting wastelands in the sideboard could be good.

I'm mostly curious on you success with knight. Will you keep one? Which lands will you keep in that case for use with knight?

[Bobmans]

I've been brewing with Courser of Kruphix a bit as a Bob replacement..... It's overperformed so much....

Courser of Kruphix is really underplayed. Since i am running that card i am not playing without. I always run 3-4 Sensei's Divining Top in my lists which makes it even better. With 4 thoughness it is a solid blocker and doesnt die to bolt. Also gaining life is very relevant with all the fast Burn and UR decks.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I put together a Junkblade list yesterday for my gf to play, and so far the all-star against blue delve has been a single Dryad Militant. GSZ for it when I need to.

[Bobmans]

I put together a Junkblade list yesterday for my gf to play, and so far the all-star against blue delve has been a single Dryad Militant. GSZ for it when I need to.

Isn't the Militant bolted down on sight?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Often, but what ya gonna do?

[Bobmans]

Often, but what ya gonna do?

The follow up question then would be, how much of its ability has some actual effect on the boardstate?

Just trying to figur out if it is actually going to put up some work or that it will be lost effort. Best way to find out is to just put it in my board anyway i guess.

[sdematt]

I feel like if you're going to start to play bullets, isn't Safekeeper real swell? I almost lost to that little bugger last night when he was playing Maverick.

Tracker is also an oldy, but a goody.

I'm still not on a 60/61 that I feel excellent about, I'm still testing. I might be trying out Darkblast again, but maybe not. We'll see :)

-Matt

[Richard Cheese]

So I've been playing around with BGW again, but it's somewhere between Maverick and a more traditional Junk/Rock list. Mostly creatures, Thalia main, 4x GSZ, but no Moms. Oh, and 4x Siege Rhino, because that guy is just fucking bonkers.

Anyway, is anyone else going down the same path? It feels like it eliminates my least favorite things from both archetypes. Bad topdecks in junk, weakness to sweepers in Maverick. If anyone's interested I can post the list.

[Bobmans]

So I've been playing around with BGW again, but it's somewhere between Maverick and a more traditional Junk/Rock list. Mostly creatures, Thalia main, 4x GSZ, but no Moms. Oh, and 4x Siege Rhino, because that guy is just fucking bonkers.

Anyway, is anyone else going down the same path? It feels like it eliminates my least favorite things from both archetypes. Bad topdecks in junk, weakness to sweepers in Maverick. If anyone's interested I can post the list.

Oh sweet.. With Thalia main i assume you run 4 Wasteland (offcourse) and maybe 1/2 LotL?

[tescrin]

I feel like GSZ becomes somewhat necessary if you're running Rhinos; but GSZ->Arbor feels dangerous if we're going to bring up the -1/-1 and 1-damage cards that are around.

@Matt
yeah, my experience with darkblast was:
Vs D&T - didn't draw it (or it didn't matter anymore)
Vs Others - Dead card

I only had the four MUs, but a 2-of felt quite wrong and a 1-of that I'm not always happy to see also feels wrong. It just feels like a strong sideboard or something. I kind of feel that way about when I test Pontiff (where maybe a GCharm would be better.)

@Richard
It's why I'm off junk right now. I was getting ready to add Moms where my Lily's were and realized that I was just walking into the meta-problem of X/1s. It's not the answer you want to hear, I'm sure. I'd attempt to keep the number of X/1s on the field to 1 at any given time if they're on Red or Black and I'd look to things that maximize your CA potential.

Another idea would be to go the old Goyf + Tombstalker + Scooze kinda route, where you just have lots of huge guys and your opponents creatures/removal isn't good enough. If doing that, I'd consider Enchantment or Artifacts (bonus if they're creatures) to support the team by making goyf big. My go to of late has been Sculler since he's combo-support and must kill, but you could find others (such as SotL.) Running both SotL *and* Sculler sound ridiculously cool next to Goyf while having reasonable disruption.

[Richard Cheese]

@Richard
It's why I'm off junk right now. I was getting ready to add Moms where my Lily's were and realized that I was just walking into the meta-problem of X/1s. It's not the answer you want to hear, I'm sure. I'd attempt to keep the number of X/1s on the field to 1 at any given time if they're on Red or Black and I'd look to things that maximize your CA potential.

Another idea would be to go the old Goyf + Tombstalker + Scooze kinda route, where you just have lots of huge guys and your opponents creatures/removal isn't good enough. If doing that, I'd consider Enchantment or Artifacts (bonus if they're creatures) to support the team by making goyf big. My go to of late has been Sculler since he's combo-support and must kill, but you could find others (such as SotL.) Running both SotL *and* Sculler sound ridiculously cool next to Goyf while having reasonable disruption.

Yeah I've never liked top-decking moms or discard late-game, so I just said to hell with both, and it feels pretty alright. My creature package is basically:

Goyf
KotR
Thalia
Ooze
Rhino
DRS
Teeg

I think a singleton Thrun and Pridemage in there? No discard, just Decay, StP, GSZ, and Library for spells. Small toolbox for KotR, does have Depths/Stage right now but I'm debating whether that's necessary or wise with the cost on Rhino. The more I think about it, the more I'm realizing it plays more like Big Zoo than anything. Still, Rhino must be perfect for this deck because Rhino = Rocksteady = The Rock.

[maharis]

Haven't had a ton of time to test recently but I'm really liking Courser. With Library, SDT, GSZ, Stoneforge, SoFI there's actually a good amount of card selection available to this deck and I think it can stand up to the blue decks.

I am basically playing the same list I posted above but with 2 Courser, 2 Siege Rhino, and a Doran in place of the Knights and Ooze, and swapped the numbers on GSZ and Souls. I haven't even changed the land base yet even though I took the Knights out because the only real stinker is Bojuka Bog and still it's a nice thing to have sometimes.

The only thing I wish I had access to is a planeswalker. I suppose I could run a Lili over Council's Judgement, but CJ is so much better at nailing TNN.

I also might bite the bullet and buy a Goyf to play over Doran. Doran can be a blowout, but I find myself really wanting a 2cc GSZ target and Goyf is just the best. I want something unboltable in that slot.