I had a Contamination build once a long time ago. In the right meta (no other black decks) it's THE mana denial card. Only weird decks like Elves or what not can withstand the pollution! Getting the combo with N. Spirit was tough. Feeding it will be difficult.Originally Posted by Hardcore
I was VERY close to considering Worms of the Earth but I've found 3 things need to happen.
1. You need to keep their land counts to less than 3 150% of the time.
2. People will just pay the damage. It's only playable when they're at 5 life. Or you have a threat in play that hits them down to 5 or less. Other cards that force life pay, like Pillar tombs of Aku or Browbeat are better for the mana.
3. Since you're Poxing, you'll need to have a signifcant advantage before you cast Worms of the Earth yourself.
From a cost standpoint, 5 damage and 2 lands for 5 cmc is actually not that bad since it is technically card advantage and massive tempo gain. I run Dark Rituals so perhaps I could make room for 1. I'm sure you'd never want to see this card till absolute late game.
On a minor news front, I'm changing my Pox deck. More tempo, more aggro, almost resembling Threshold. More to come when I can test it further. Also much faster. I'm not a fan of the stress that comes with going to time in tournaments. Long games NO MORE!
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
After dozens and dozens of games with traditional "Prison" Pox, I've taken it to an older, different turn. My prior deck only had 8 threats, took a LOONG time to defeat my opponent, and it was tough to recover from since I had much more strangling elements. However, it was very mana intensive and demanded my enemies play games quickly. If I was facing another control deck, either counterspell based or otherwise, they had a tendency to draw out and inevitably win.
I didn't think it was a big deal until I entered 2-3 tournaments that had time limits. Those games were quite stressful and my own Magic Coach, "Dread Return" we'll call him, said the time burnt into said games could be used for more productive things, like walking around and watching other people's games.
My other fav deck, though caged within a budget, was RUG Delver (Threshold). It had the idea of playing a threat, choking the opponent's spells/resources, and simply winning with that single threat. If that threat died, you just played another one. Any sweepers the opponent had were effectively over priced removal. I thought to myself, what if I could try that approach with Pox? It had a much more effective suite of LD, generated real Card Advantage instead of virtual, and Black threats were more offensive than the Blue / Green ones. I only played 2 games but had favorable results. They were against home brew aggro though and I have yet to try it against my more 'hard core' Magic comrades. Behold... Arctic HORROR Pox!
Threats (12)
4 Epochrasite
4 Oona's Prowler
4 Nihilith
Spells (18)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
2 Pox
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
Mana / Lands (26)
4 Dark Ritual
11 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cabal Pit
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
1 The Rack
1 Underworld Dreams
2 Funeral Charm
4 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
3 Relic of Progenitus
Pros - Much much faster than my old Deck. After Nihilith resolves, preferably after a Poxing style spell, it'd just punch to victory. More offensive nature causes play errors to occur. Enemies are busy looking for a way to deal with massive threats instead of playing their own game. Each threat in deck can be Suspended or cast on turn 2 which is like a time bomb to doom. Evasion through flying and Fear was very effective
Cons - Less 'fancy'. No Crucible longevity and Mishra's Factories. No Cursed Scroll makes swarms tougher to deal with until game 2. The Funeral Charms are placeholders. I'm thinking of making them Rack and Underworld Dreams #2 instead. Being less disruptive means you are now more into a slugging match with players vs. strangling them slowly. This can be more or less fun depending on your personality but that's just subjective observation.
Every card shown is old school and explained before but the strategies aren't as obvious:
Oona's Prowler: it's an Unconditional Delver that generates Card Advantage! Most players need their precious cards so by discarding useless cards to this guy to buy time, you play your Hymns with more devastating effect.
Epochrasite: 4/4 with Haste after being suspended. Can't be responded to upon suspension. When this thing is ticking down, you want to cast every spell in your hand ASAP. Can also be used to chump or to protect your other threats from your own Poxing.
Nihilith: Ah, an old favorite, nothing like Dark Ritual on turn 2 with a Nihilith suspension followed by a Smallpox. Can hit the field and smash VERY fast depending on how quickly you rip their spells, threats, and lands down.
Will report more when I can join my local card shop tourney.
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
I run a deck fairly similar to pirate king's list [proxy lillys so no official matches], though sometimes add in green off the bayous. Anyways, just wanted to see if anyone else has experimented with 1-2 mainboard copies of Gibbering Descent, using Liliana's discard to protect from Force while initiating lower madness cost (the only way it's getting cast). It's a fairly miserable way for them to lose, might justify a Lake of the Dead in the main (for old time's sake), and can be an outlet for a turn 4+ Dark Ritual draw.
The skipping upkeep part can lead to some interesting possibilities: Crop Rotation for Glacial Chasm or perhaps one of the worst wordings of cumulative upkeep in Wave of Terror - which for some reason triggers in the draw step allowing for permanent bury cmc x=0 or 1 gamestates.
Here's the relevant oracle text: At the beginning of your draw step, destroy each creature with converted mana cost equal to the number of age counters on Wave of Terror. They can't be regenerated.
As far as the discarding goes, Gibbering Descent seems kinda useless, if you have a Liliana on the field they should be hellbent by then or soon. Id rather have more discard for the more crucial early turns. I feel like for a 4 mana or less permanent there are a ton of cards I'd rather play(NoSB, Nether Void, Garruk Relentless, Abyss, Chains of Mephistopheles, Ensaring Bridge)
That said, the interaction of skipping your upkeep could be relevant against some decks. It is a non-bo with Tabernacle which GB with crop rotation should play but as you point out it is great with Glacial Chasm. I do not know is there are any other things to abuse the no upkeep clause, and then it probably becomes too cute. It could make it harder to flip a Delver. I think that it may mean there is no priority passing in the turn before the draw step(feel free to correct me on rulings but I believe the upkeep is the first priority pass in a turn if there is no upkeep then it would be at the end of the draw-step for next chance) which I guess could be relevant(no cliqueing, or toping during upkeep).
Only 8 people made it to the Legacy night at the LGS, which means an entertaining (albeit short) 3 rounds. I ended up 2-1 with a loss to Goblins because of horrid draws and mulligans, but wins over RU Delver and Death and Taxes using the following list:
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Cursed Scroll
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 The Rack
2 Shrieking Affliction
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Waste Not
4 Dark Ritual
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Raven's Crime
3 Smallpox
12 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
The SB was a mess and hodgepodge of things, and the only cards that proved relevant over the entire night were 3 Engineered Plague. T1 ritual into Plague on Humans in both the Delver and D&T match pretty much won it for me, and a fun g1t1 play against D&T was Rit into Waste Not and Raven's Crime, with them discarding a Land and then me using the BB generated to hit a Hymn to Tourach and get 2 zombies from it.
I'll likely tinker with it a little and tune some things to see if it plays a bit better than my previous version of Pox.
Um yes. Why snow lands?
so, this is the latest iteration of my deck.
4 Bloodghast
4 bloodsoaked champion
2 nether spirit
3 tombstalker
3 fleshbag marauder
4 Pox
4 smallpox
4 dark ritual
4 hymn to tourach
2 engineered plague
2 the rack
16 swamp
4 bloodstained mire
3 wasteland
Away with Pack Rats and chalice. In goes the Rack and Fleshbag Marauder. This is only 59 cards however. Maybe card #60 should be a Divining top. Hmm.
Any other ideas?
Question is, WHY NOT snow-covered swamps?!They're prettier.
It also opens up 2 possibilities with Withering Wisps and Scrying Sheets + Sensei's Divining Top, though I'm not going to take that path yet. I do however have beefy enough creatures to survive a wisp activation of 3, but I'm leaning to more control by that point.
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
I've started to test this build out. It is more grave/Loam dependant than I normally like, but I've looked at a lot of lands type deck lists that have been successful recently and it has a similar level as them, by design. Basically, it's more "All In" and is explosive enough that if the opponent doesn't have the answer soon it will be lights out. A topdecked extraction effect is the biggest speed bump, or an early DRS with no early Lilly or Decay or Smallpox on my part, but there are twelve of those plus Toxic Deluge in the board, and extraction isn't always the most common grave hate. Sideboard is mostly to combat combo and anticipated grave hate by opponent. The Spirit is to Entomb for early Goyf blocks and a very desperate backup win con rather than a second Maze of Ith.
1 Nether Spirit
4 Mox Diamond
3 Exploration
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Life from the Loam
4 Entomb
4 Crop Rotation
4 Smallpox
4 Raven's Crime
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Wasteland
3 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Urborg,Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Maze of Ith
Side
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Cabal Pit
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Barren Moor
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
3 Toxic Deluge
Innocent Blood or Cabal Pit main could help with early Deathrite Shaman. I would also recommend playing more Crop Rotation targets main(The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Bojuka Bog). Are you running enough lands for a Mox Diamond, Exploration build? I run 27 lands main in my GB pox and I feel much less reliant on my graveyard and don't need extra lands early for Exploration, or Mox Diamond. Also if you are playing a more combo oriented finish is it worth it to play Vampire Hexmage?
I would also play at least 2 Barren Moor main deck because with Life from the Loam it will dig you really fast. It is also nice to be able to both draw and dredge every turn, and provides protection from Surgical Extraction for your Loam.
After a little testing I think that the Exploration may be surplus to requirements. As a deck that still likes to use Smallpox and Lilliana to clear the path first, I don't always want to be comboing out to Marit Lage at first opportunity. Hexmage is more marginal with a Pox strategy. Exploration is nice, but this deck has less lands than Land decks, and in fact removing them would leave a couple of slots for more lands as you suggest, like another Urborg or Barren Moor.
What I've suspected has come true...
My more aggro design has a tendency to generate a LOT of pressure for enemy control decks (Pox's bane). But my ability to fight other aggro decks takes a dip. Ah, trade offs!
One of my test games was against a friend who built a G/W Pauper slivers deck. An extremely effective one I might add. I won a game due to dropping an Ensnaring Bridge, building up to four cards in my hand, then slamming him with Nihilith (love fear!) and then discarding a card to Liliana since his Slivers were all 5/6
I found myself with a metric ton of threats (12 total in deck) which was a lot more than I desire. With my Threshold deck, though it had 12 threats as well, I found it would flood me less due to Brainstorms and Fetchland activations. Needing only 1 threat to carry, I may as well make sure it's the best one. I'll trim my new build down to ten win conditions and 'summon' the cards of ancient times...
It'll still be more offensive than not, but I won't be using Cursed Scroll or Crucible so the deck's flavor is still mid range instead of traditional control's long game. No Cabal Pit or Maze of Ith for now.
Worms of the Earth is on my radar right now. After Wastelanding, Sinkhole, and a Smallpox or two, this would be a nail in the coffin once they're health totals are in the sink. Even if not, that's a 2 for 1 and 5 damage for 5 mana. Not bad as a one of. Damping Engine is also on my mind as well for a stabilizing piece.
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
Worms of the Earth is literally worse than the card Lava Axe
- Both cards are sorcery speed 5 mana
- Lava Axe is always 5 damage
- Worms of the Earth is usually 5 damage unless the opponent
a - Is happy with the number of lands they have
b - Is happy to sac 2 lands to have the ability to play more lands
If they pay 5 life to get rid of it it's not a 2 for 1, it's a neg 1 (Lava Axe). You don't want to play Lava Axe in your Thoughtseize deck.
There's so much weird shit in this thread lately
- Nether Spirits in a deck with 16 creatures
- Oona's Prowler in a deck with Smallpox in it
- Cutting disruption for junk like Shrieking Affliction
What are the problems people have found with the Reid list such that they feel the need to make these pretty big changes?
Point taken. I misread the 'or' part in the card [facepalm]. Reid's list is slow. I think for some, excrutiatingly so. One of his Pox edition decks did come with Tombstalkers in the Sideboard which would help with the speed I'm sure. I'm dialing back the clock to something a bit older. 10 threats, most of which hit quite hard, and I'm messing with the land a bit. Even Reid himself admits that Pox is unable to deal with everything the longer the game goes. "Sometimes it's much easier to just kill your opponent." Instead of winning for twenty turns.
The challenge is now given. What I'd like to know is what would make a good sideboard card vs. decks that want to go past the 20 turn mark, like Miracles control. I've got Underworld Dreams, which is a solid threat in the face of slowness and punishes B-stormers. It's hard to come up with others.
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
I like some combination of The Rack and Pithing Needle:
- The Rack is normally faster than Underworld Dreams, easier to cast, and you can redirect the damage to Jace. If you're in a situation where Underworld Dreams is damaging them but The Rack wouldn't then you're probably losing that game anyway
- Pithing Needle is great because when they can fix their draws every turn it breaks the symmetry of card exchanges in their favour, so disabling top is very important. It also can disable Jace.
What I think the deck needs atm is a way (either mained or sided) to disrupt DTT, because it's a natural foil to this type of extreme attrition strategy. I think either Relics or Bogs could be worth using
Last edited by kombatkiwi; 06-10-2015 at 01:20 PM.
I like this! How does it perform?
"Be it ever so crumbled, there's no place like home."
RGCL (GQ)
Youtube-playlist dedicated to RGCL
Thank you, sir! Weird, unfocused brews with old, sub-par cards will certainly not take Pox to the next level. Pox is my absolute favorite deck in Legacy, but fact is that the deck is pretty much established by now and Pox will not become a deck-to-beat unless there is a huge meta shift or some new crazy card is printed.
Last edited by wuberg; 06-12-2015 at 03:23 PM.
What would be the 'flex slots' in this established deck you speak of?
For my opinion, the 'must have' cards in traditional Pox would be:
Innocent Blood
Inquisition of Kozilek
Hymn to Tourach
Sinkhole
Smallpox
1-2 Pox
Liliana of the Veil
Wasteland
That's half a deck right there. Are we even allowed wiggle room anymore?I think the reality of a Pox deck's strength ultimately lies in the Sideboard's ability to heal a game's problems vs. the 'band aids' that others use. (one - shot temporary effects)
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
Back to September 2013 when I was actively playing Pox in my LGS, I would not have said that Pox is required in a traditional list. I still don't think it is mandatory.What would be the 'flex slots' in this established deck you speak of?
For my opinion, the 'must have' cards in traditional Pox would be:
Innocent Blood
Inquisition of Kozilek
Hymn to Tourach
Sinkhole
Smallpox
1-2 Pox
Liliana of the Veil
Wasteland
That's half a deck right there. Are we even allowed wiggle room anymore?
We have all the tools to beat any kind (except grave based strategies) of deck.
But the deck is not consistent enough to attract the minimal required threshold of players to start putting up results on big tournaments.
A couple of top 16 was the best I could get with it. Because during 6+ rounds, you'll lose at least once because of your "draws" if not twice.
I cannot recall how many "under control" games I lost because I successively drew 5 lands when my opponent was drawing gas.
Until we get something that "win the top deck war for good", Pox will remain an established deck or until having access to a lock and not a soft one.
The other aspect of Pox is that this archetype does not allow ANY misplay, like a lot of control deck but even further. Discarding/Sac'in the wrong card (land) on a smallpox is the best shortcut to lose a game on the spot. The Pox decision tree might be one of the most complicated one through all legacy because you don't have to think only about the board & your hand but also about your statistical chances to draw the card you need to establish your soft lock/deal with a threat WITHOUT any ability to filter your draws or to draw more than one card per turn.
It's been quite a long time since Liliana's printing and Pox renewal and we didn't get any new lock piece or any new very strong card to keep up with the rest of the format since then.
This is a gross exaggeration, Pox is probably one of the easiest decks to play in the entire format.
The entire gameplan revolves around denying both players access to resources and being forced into 'topdeck mode' removes like 90% of the room to make strategic decisions. I'm not saying you can't misplay with the deck but of all the archetypes in legacy that I've seen or tried this one comes the closest to playing itself.
With respect to the idea of a 'stock list' I reference the Reid article from 2012
Creatures (2)
2 Nether Spirit
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (25)
13 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Spells (29)
3 Cursed Scroll
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 Thoughtseize
I would consider:
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Innocent Blood
2 Pox
1 Thoughtseize
1 Nether Spirit
To be 'flex slots', I probably wouldn't cut anything else
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