I'm excited, once again. Prepare for the midrange decks to creep back into the format, and probably a bit less Pyromancer Grixis.
This also actually makes truths a better card. You now get to run a 3 for 1 card and the blue decks do not get to counter with a 2 for 1. Omni also becomes Sneak and show wich I have to imagine is a better match up. Discard is much stronger against them. Liliana shuts of the show part so hey, maybe things are looking for the Rock.
Good bye blue control, hello veteran explorer my old friend.
As sad as it is to see my grixis deck go, man is it going to be fun to cast prime time in legacy again.
On a side note, is anybody still playing the jund nic fit with punishing fire? Interested to see what people are thinking of for our one of's for the potential new meta showing more aggro/midrange strategies.
I'm thinking about Back To basics too. Not sure if 4 Leyline of the Void would be too much
I considered B2B but I fetch my duals fairly often because of the mana requirements. If you can support it though it is the blue blood moon.
That build is so incredibly far off from what I had in mind. I was thinking of something along the lines of this:Originally Posted by Ralf
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Veteran explorer
3 Strangleroot Geist
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Fierce Empath
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Karador, Ghost Chieftain
1 Grave Titan
1 Batterskull
1 Grafted Wargear
4 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal therapy
3 Green Sun Zenith
This way, GSZ allows you to tutor up a big (and yet possibly cheap) threat whilst also leaving you food for your Diabolic Intent. Karador is incredible in the late game, if unanswered. It lets you pull ahead so incredibly fast, and when combined with Eternal Witness it's just nuts (even if it's only 1 creature each turn).
Also, Diabolic Intent isn't a card one wants to cast as soon as possible, so there's no need with being overly concerned with the speed of it. The trick to Diabolic Intent is keeping it in hand for as long as you can only to find exactly what you need just when you need it most. It allows you to turn games around completely.
Looking at this build, one could drop the Strangleroots though, add another Stoneforge and some more removal. It's a bit easier on the manabase. I'd say this build lacks a bit of the punching power of our regular build, but gains in consistency. It's about the same basis I use for my Summoner's Egg build.
Lets be honest, Jitte is better than grafted war gear. If you do nothing with the Jitte besides pump than after the first hit it even becomes better than war gear. I do not buy that it is a better equipment.
I do like the empath for delve guy but I do think Tasigur might not be right. I played 2 of them when he first came out but I have decided the potential for CA is not worth the loss of a power (4/5 to 5/5). I think angler is better with karakas in the field. I also like Tombstalker. Flying is relevant whether it is with jitte or the war gear punching them in the face is going to be easier with that. Last week I ran 2 stalkers in my Bug midrange build and I had forgotten about him.
3 DRS and 4 vet is certainly a lot of mana dorks. I think I would shave some of those numbers. I would also play some amount of tops plus either library or try the new painful truths card.
Yeah, Jitte is good. I just like that Grafted Wargear doesn't need you to invest any mana in it after casting it.
Concerning Tasigur vs. Angler - the most annoying thing about Tasigur is that it's legendary. Sometimes, its ability does come in handy, but those times are few. You indeed mostly use him like a beatstick. So in those cases Angler would be better. As for Angler vs. Tombstalker - B vs BB is quite a big difference.
The war gear certainly speeds up the aggro plan. Not denying that. I just feel the loss of secondary abilities is not offset enough by the speed of the war gear. Hey, if you like the war gear all power to you. +3 power on the front end is not nothing.
I would choose Angler over Tasigur if that is the choice. I would heavily consider adding stalker instead as I believe that flying+equipment is worth the 1 B but I dont think its strictly better.
I am going to give my dig through time nic fit deck 1 last go this week. After that I dont know yet. The card selection was so huge in making the blue splash IMO so good. It let the deck run so many powerful singletons and with the mana snap dig was fairly common as well. I am not sure the build I have can survive that without an over hall. Probe therapy is still good but without delve draw spells I am not sure if probe is still worth it.
Rug delver, and actually the other delvers too should all make a resurgence. Dnt and shardless bug as well. That does bode well for Deed decks. Elves could be hit or miss as people have at times on this thread complained about that matchup but I have found it pretty good actually.
The bigger problem is that miracles is still going to be a/the top deck and I have not seen a build yet that I would actually call favorable game 1.
In my experience pod has a good Mu against miracle
Inherently, Veteran Explorer is a non-bo with Miracles, which is why many lists have shaved from 4 Vets down to 3 or 2 and replaced it with Deathrite Shaman. You're definitely boarding these gents out in the Miracles match.
But, since most of us were still playing Choke or Tsunami a week ago, it looks like we'll be good to go. 5-6 manadorks seems to be the right call. I'm on 2/3 right now, but 3/3 also seems just fine since it's just enough acceleration when we need it, postboard.
Suffice to say, I'm excited Delver is back, since you know, Rhino + Deed.
-Matt
Just built this to test. In goldfishing, Painful Truths seems really strong. I think this is the best deck for it, because how many decks can play a 3-mana, 3-color sorcery that bolts you. Still I know this list is not optimized, Kitchen Finks seems necessary but Thrun is such a tank it's hard to say no.
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Veteran Explorer
2 Siege Rhino
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Eternal Witness
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Painful Truths
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Path to Exile
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Batterskull
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Marsh Flats
For the board, I think I want some mix of Thalia, Teeg, more hand disruption, maybe surgical. Carpet of Flowers for Miracles. I'm on the fence about the main board, I'm considering cutting Hymn for more removal and just boarding into hatebears-and-discard.dec for combo matches. I also would like some sort of evasive planes walker but I think they are all double white....
If you are just looking for a generic walker to help out in post board games against grindy decks I would recommend the flip garruk. While 4 mana is a lot it also lets you convert sfm/vet/arbor into things like rhino/thrun/witness. I am not sure he is good enough to make a main board but he is good against other SFM decks and miracles.
DTT banned means Lili is back, gentlemen.
She is the second best PW after Jace.
One that cannot be left unchecked by the decks that tend to go over us (if you see what I mean).
What decks does everybody sideboard out their explorers? I know miracles is an easy one but what else is there
Well boys, with DTT banned it's time for us to get out of the closet once again ! I'll post an updated list soon.
On a side note, i've played a Nic Fit list during thesource tournament, but i kinda forgot to include the SDT in my list. That kinda screwed me over and went 1-2...
Holo.
The more I noodle around with this deck, the more I think we might really have something. If you think about how games will go against fair decks, you will either be developing your board with must-answer cards that require them to spend time and mana on counters/removal, or using your own suite of answers on their threats if they are on the offensive. And then you drop this bomb on them and fill your hand with more insane value cards. Yes, they will have lots of selection, but at some point, you're ripping bombs and removal while they're shuffling away other cantrips to find their business. And that could include cards like Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay that are limited in their utility against us. STP sucks, I guess, but then again we have Painful Truths.
I am going to try and find some space for a green 2-drop (I guess that would have to be Scavenging Ooze, but I don't really like that card) and a Finks. Some other way to recur, maybe Recurring Nightmare, would also be nice.
I don't think there's a way to make this strategy good against combo pre-board. I think this is the kind of board I want:
3 Thoughtseize/Duress
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Surgical Extraction/other
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Nihil Spellbomb/Containment Priest
1 open
I expect to lean heavily on discard-and-extract vs. most combo decks, with the upside of Thalia against storm. Thalia also a way to needle decks that don't benefit from the VetRamp even more.
Right... I like the card but I was thinking more along the lines of an Elspeth that grants flying. I can envision ground stalls still happening (though trample on Rhino does help)
I just remembered that the Khans Sorin makes flying tokens so that might be the answer. Also lifelinks your guys in play for more Painful Truths.
At least, for queen sake, put a Sigarda somewhere in your list !!!
I would also look twice at the list I have provided a couple pages back.
I can understand why one wants to keep SDT + Deed in a list but when you have access to such powerful draw engine, you can easily leave sweepers at home and play cheaper spot removal, because you will be able to cope with the blue quality with "quantity".
6/7 spot removal & 6/7 spot discard MD are a very good ratio against most T1 & T2 decks. If you add the grindy elements of Nic Fit into the mix, you have something really interesting.
I have my cash weekly tonight so I am taking DTT for one last spin. After that I will redesign my BUG deck and post a list. I think deed will actually become better in the new meta so that is a plus for those running that card. I have fallen in love with probe therapy but without dig in my deck I am not sure the probe is worth it anymore. I could always play tombstalker but I doubt I will.
I board vet out against any deck that just making land drops will provide me enough time that ramping is unneeded. Basically miracles, uw blade, or other slowish control decks.
I think Lili is for sure a walker we want access to again. I would probably run 2. She is is also a hedge against flooding as trading lands or late game vets for their cards is fine when we have multiple edicts on tap. I probably woulnt run another walker unless its the garruk though. The fact that it is removal/tutor is better than a 1/1 token maker that can jump things IMO. Garruk also has an overrun that gives trample too so there is that. Still wouldnt main deck either.
Ralf is right, sigarda is better than thrun if you have white.
I am still a believer that deed is a way to break open games. Sure you have matchups like omni or storm where it is likely dead. Lily helps here and if in blue so does jace and brainstorm. Deed is such a unique effect in legacy, and it is truly a CA spell unlike 1 for 1 removal. I would not removal all copies from any list I play (aside from any reanimate fit decks maybe).
Deed is actually a strong option and I'm not going to deny its power.
Unfortunately, aside from very specific MU where it shines like no other sweeper, it is more likely than not a very costly "spot removal". Even if Nic Fit is a fringe deck, there are less and less players who tend to overextend when they are facing a veteran.deck
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