Would you guys say that the white splash sb for meddling mage is basically stock now?
it is for me, considering meddling mage is one of my favorite sideboard cards in legacy.Originally Posted by ironclad8690
I wouldn't call it stock as there are still a lot of players that don't run MM, but I wouldn't leave the house without them in the SB now. Builds with discard MD can get away without them better as they have a shot at beating combo G1. But the 'European' build (no discard MD) submits G1 to combo in favour of having a great matchup vs fair decks, so having discard, counters and hateful permanents G2 and G3 is vital to attack on multiple angles as we have no space for a mistake.
I don't remember ever seeing a Shardless list without discard in the MD, can you post an example list please?
Hey guys, what do think about my current my sideboard strategy:
Miracles - I like keeping fow to stop entreat/jace
-3x baleful -1x tropical -1x toxic deluge
+1x needle +1xnull rod + 2x meddling mage + 1x scrubland
Mirror
-3x force of will
+ 2x desfigure +1x notion tief
Storm
-4x abrupt -1x toxic -1x maelstrom -3x baleful strix -1x forest
+ 3xmeddling mage +2x thoughtseize +1x notion thief +1 scrubland +1x null rod +1x fow +1x golgari charm
Bug Delver
(Without Stifle) -2x fow +2x desfigure
(With Stifle) -2x hymn -1seize +2x desfigure +1scrubland
Rug Delver
-2x hymn -1jace +2x desfigure +1 scrubland
Elves
+1x graffdigger cage +3x meddling mage +1x scrubland +2x thoughtseize +2x desfigure +1x night of soul betrayal +1x golgari charm
-3x baleful -1pulse -4x ancestral vision -1x wasteland -1x jace -1goyf
Infect
+2x thoughtseize +1x needle +2x desfigure +1x night of soul betrayal +1golgari charm
-4x ancestral vision -1x jace,tms -1x tarmogoyf -1maelstrom pulse(too slow)
Deathblade
+2x desfigure +1x golgari charm 1x notion thief 1x pithing needle +1seize
-1 fow -3xbaleful strix -2hymn
Sneak Attack
+2x thoughtseize +1x notion thief +1x golgari charm +3x meddling mage +1 scrubland +1 fow +1 needle
-3x baleful -4x abrupt decay -1x pulse -1x toxic deluge -1x tropical
Grixis Delver (with grumag + young pyromancer)
-2x hymn -1xfow -1x thoughtseize
+2x desfigure +1 night of the soul's betrayal +1x golgari charm
Burn
-1x thoughtseize -1x maelstrom pulse -1x toxic deluge
+2x desfigure +1x fow
RG Lands:
+3x meddling mage +1x scrubland(stop p.fire) +1x pithing needle +1x fow +2x thoughtseize
-3xbaleful -1x toxic deluge -1x pulse -2x hymn -1liliana
Jund with p.fire
+2 desfigure +1golgari(regenerate goyf + kill bob)
-3x fow (play) -3xdiscart(draw)
----------------
My current list
4x polluted delta
4x verdant catacombs
2x misty rainforest
3x underground sea
1x bayou
2x tropical island
1x swamp
1x forest
3x wasteland
1x tar pit
4x tarmogoyf
4x deathrite shaman
4x shardless agent
3x baleful strix
1x jace, the mind sculptor
2x liliana of the veil
4x abrupt decay
1x maelstrom pulse (not in love with it)
1x toxic deluge
4x ancestral visions
4x brainstorm
3x force of will
2x hymn to tourach
1x toughtseize
SIDE
3x meddling mage
1x scrubland
1x force of will
2x toughtseize
1x notion thief
1x pithing needle
1x null rod
1x grafdigger cage
1x golgari charm
1x night of the soul's betrayal
2x desfigure
Last edited by order; 10-31-2015 at 05:06 PM.
So I am just getting into this deck after finally trading into some goyfs. I am about to play it for the first time in a weekly event. I was curious, How important are the Meddling Mages in a post omnitell world? I see alot of decklists with them but I am not sure if that is carry over from preban world. I am not a big fan of a 4th color splash, and am wondering how needed it really is in the new metagame.
Also Thoughtseize, main or sideboard? I see it alot both ways, I kinda want to run them main myself.
Think meddling Mage is important in our side. He is very good against any combo and useful against miracles.
Thoughtseize depends on your meta. In my build I replace one for for seize and it is working great
split finals again in my normal wednesday night legacy tournament running same list as last week except i replaced sylvan library out of the side with another surgical extraction
miracles 2-0 win
nicfit 2-0 win
reanimator draw
miracles 2-0 win
split finals with reanimator
loving the deck right now!
Against Miracles, I'm not sure you want the Mage package here. They have plenty of removal and I'm not sure what you would name? Even if you were to bring it in, the deck is base BG, so remove a Tropical Island for the Scrubland. Some Miracle decks are running Blood Moon, so keeping your two basics might be a good move. I think Charm is a good card to bring in too. Kills Rest In Peace, which I'm expecting to come back.
Same advice I've been given with the deck, when in the Mirror.
I forgot that BUG Delver has two variants, but I would probably take Force out against both versions. Not much you want to counter that you couldn't take care of most of the time. Again, I could be wrong, I'm still fairly new to the deck.
Elves seems pretty abismal. I would keep agree on most of what you've said, except for siding out Jace. However, I lean on Jace as another win condition. I would probably toss out Forces since you already have the Mages in, keeping in Jace and the two Agents.
Dragging this out, like most of our matches, seems to be where we're at. Getting to Jace is a game breaker, since you bounce everything or keeps them off pumps and Inkmoth off the top. I have been trying the Force approach, but I don't like that angle, so next time I play against it I'll take it out. I am using Charm, but it hurts you too if Strix is out, but I think if you pull the trigger on Charm you're in a bad spot any way. Take Pulse out. It's likely to get countered and not enough targets to really warrant it. Keep Goyf in, because t's our finisher.
I agree with everything but cutting Goyf and Bayou. Leave a Needle in the board and take out the Tropical. Beware of Blood Moon of course.
Definitely Forces and Lili out and Night and Disfigures in for sure. Charm in, maybe Hymn and maybe keeping in Thoughtseize, while bringing in another Thoughtseize? So: out Two Lili, three Forces and in Night, two Disfigures, Charm, and Hymn. Depending on if you want Jace out or not, then replace him with the a Thoughtseize.
Definitely a hard deck for this deck. I would probably take Strix out before I take Jace out though. Searing Blaze and Blood are cards, as is Smash to Smithereens. Strix probably won't last long and won't do anything on the board really, but this decision probably depends on on the play or draw. So: out three Strix and Deluge with Hymn, two Disfigure, and Force coming in.
Against any Lands deck I definitely would bring in graveyard hate that actually removes the grave. I've never really like Cage, I would probably out that card for Nihil Spellbomb. Mage would probably be best here naming Punishing Fire and Life From the Loam. Lots of dead cards here. I would probably keep that fourth Force in the board. It's not going to do much. I don't see Thoughtseize helping much either. I would rather hit lands to go to the bin with Hymn have them work for their lands. So: out Pulse, Deluge, Thoughtseize, two Abrupt Decay, and Tropical Island for three Mages, Scrubland, and two Needle.
My two, mostly untested, cents.
By the way, thank you for inspiring me to actually critically think side board strategies. I'll post mine in a few days. Still thinking of a proper fifteenth card for my board in my build.
Cage is great against Elves however. Mixing up your yard hate is always a safer bet. 4x DRS in the MD helps a bunch against Reanimator decks. MM helps with the Punishing Fire issue because cards like RiP aren't an option with how heavily Shardless relies on its GY. Cage is a good catchall vs Reanimating decks (Reanimator, Oops all Spells, Dredge) while also helping soften up Elves and Maverick (Basically anything that uses GSZ).
just wanted to say, toxic deluge is mvp vs mentor miracles... won an almost unwinnable game because of it!
Like this one - http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16933&iddeck=126969 - winner of Ovino.
It sacrifices G1 vs combo for a great matchup vs fair decks.
Hi to everyone! i'm new in the forum.
It is already a couple of years that i'm playing Bug Shardless, apart from the period of treasure cruise. Until the last Ovino i played it without the White spalsh,ending with a
7-2 score, finishing 21st , loosing only from Jund and Burn; but now that dig is gone, i see that there are a lot of Sneak and Show and Elves in my meta.
I'd like to know from the forum why Containment Priest isn't played in this deck, in my opinion seems perfect for the SB plane against this type of deck
(Dredge, Reanimato too) and i'd like to play it ,over 2 copies of Meddling Mage, that is strong too, but more difficoult to play against this type of deck,where they have a lot of out and closer!
Thanks for your opinions guys!
I have a Containment Priest in my SB at the moment, and had two for a short period of time before DTT. As you say, it's fantastic vs elves and Sneak and Show and nice vs Dredge too. It may go back to two copies if the meta progresses in the same direction it's going in now.Hi to everyone! i'm new in the forum.
It is already a couple of years that i'm playing Bug Shardless, apart from the period of treasure cruise. Until the last Ovino i played it without the White spalsh,ending with a
7-2 score, finishing 21st , loosing only from Jund and Burn; but now that dig is gone, i see that there are a lot of Sneak and Show and Elves in my meta.
I'd like to know from the forum why Containment Priest isn't played in this deck, in my opinion seems perfect for the SB plane against this type of deck
(Dredge, Reanimato too) and i'd like to play it ,over 2 copies of Meddling Mage, that is strong too, but more difficoult to play against this type of deck,where they have a lot of out and closer!
Thanks for your opinions guys!
This is what I'm playing currently. As I mentioned a few posts ago, no discard MD as the SB is strong enough vs combo to sacrifice G1 (that's the plan anyway!)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
4 Ancestral Visions
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Forest
SB
4 Meddling Mage
1 Containment Priest
1 Scrubland
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Engineered Plague
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Notion Thief
I think Lumbering Falls is worth considering as a singleton. Like Creeping Tar Pit, it provides a method of late-game inevitability against grindy control decks. I think this would further help shore up the Miracles matchup, as Hexproof reduces the options they have to deal with it. People in the Team America thread were not enthusiastic about LFalls, but I think that's because the mana cost is more prohibitive there. BUG Control is more capable of establishing a board state to take advantage of it. The Miracles matchup tends to end up in topdeck wars, and a manland can take advantage of this scenario.
That said, I still think CTarpit is a worthwhile consideration, especially as it can deal with Planeswalkers through a wall of blockers.
Blood Moon is still a problem of course, but that's why I run a couple basics and try to hold up mana for ADecay and GCharm against decks running it.
That was me in the TA thread, and while there is more merit to consider it in Shardless, the power level just isn't here imo. One of the biggest powers of tar pit is it threatens to deal with an opposing jace on curve, forcing them to play something different or +2 off the bat. Falls doesn't achieve this, the body is outmatched by most things and Hexproof is only relevant vs miracles as pretty much every other midrange/control deck will be running Wasteland (which Hexproof obviously does nothing against). The Miracles matchup is already fine, so the risk of a cipt land vs tempo decks for such a small return isn't worth it.
But that's just my opinion, maybe you've tried it with good results? I've not even played a tar pit for about 2 years as I hate losing tempo with land drops. When the decks lategame is as strong as Shardless', risking not getting to that stage isn't worth it to me.
Yeah, Tar Pit has actually been quite stellar for me, especially against Miracles. With how common UWx Miracles is currently, and seeing as it may end up being among the most commonly played Tier 1 Decks going forward, having a card with low investment cost to shore it up seems fine.
I feel that BUG sometimes struggles to land the last few points of damage against some midrange and control decks due to its lack of Burn and Nimble Mongoose. This is where having a rugged threat that dodges both being countered *and* targeted/sorcery-speed removal is good (and also isn't reliant on the graveyard). LFalls is almost as good as Thrun in this regard, minus taking up valuable sideboard or maindeck slots. It's not difficult to cut the 10th fetchland (in a Lejay-esque build) for this land.
I realize coming into play tapped is a problem, but we have plenty of alternative mana sources. BUG Control naturally tends to skew towards the late game, so the downside is mitigated. Obviously this card is not being considered for being useful against decks running Wasteland. But there are a number of plodding control and midrange decks where this could help swing for the last few bits of damage, whereas any other threat would get killed on-sight by various forms of removal or an active Liliana. I've had plenty of games against Jund and Miracles end up in the sort of gamestate where having a LFalls would be ideal, and yet a Tar Pit would just die right away to a PFire or StP. There are even some games where the same thing happens against decks like RUG Delver -- they don't *always* have Wasteland, and the winner often comes down to who can resolve and maintain a threat first. LFalls can't even be countered in case they've been sandbagging a FoW for your threat.
Ultimately, this is just one slot I am talking about here. I don't think it would work all that well in multiples. But as a singleton it could prove to be quite useful. Perhaps even moreso if there's a Life from the Loam somewhere in the 75.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard:
1 Scrubland
2 Meddling Mage
2 Disfigure
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Thoughtseize
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Notion Thief
1 Vendilion Clique
Recorded a couple of matches today. I think I misplayed in the 2 that I lost, but I would appreciate comments on either gameplay or decklist (no sound unfortunately):
VS Elves (2-1)
VS Storm (2-0)
VS Nic Fit (1-2)
VS Elves (1-2)
Bahra was just streaming some Euroshard: http://www.twitch.tv/bahra_/v/22125388
Say what? They can't wasteland it once it's active and has hexproof.
Lumbering Falls is a lot less susceptible to Wasteland than Creeping Tar Pit.
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