Does anyone have suggestions for sideboard cards to beat the mirror? I know that REB, Clique and Jace are good, but is there is sort of narrow effect that would provide a huge advantage?
Seeing as everyone seems to be on that Mentor tip, play a Moat.
Originally Posted by Nihilis
Thanks for posting, congratulations man!
It seems Gideon and Cavern pulled their weight, would you play them in the future?
Cavern of souls.
Lossett's Legend Miracles will dominate Miracles mirror of similar flavors.
Firstly, congrats on the win!
Just wanna ask if you do encounter some problems with consistency with 2 ponders instead of 4 and how is cavern of souls treating you?
So we all know that Miracles is OP. Basicly there are three ways you lose with the deck;
1) You play poorly
2) You play against one of the few bad matchups
3) Your deck is not constructed in the most consistent way.
The last part touches the art of sideboarding but I will not focus on that for now. How do we construct the most consistent version of miracles?
First of all we can cut the situational ones like Spell Pierce and then some clunky ones like Council's Judgment. Most people allready did. Then we can either reduce or replace the number of wincons. Some allready did.
Next step is to reduce the loopsided elements and make the list tighter. For this we have to make some drastic changes to the core.
During the DTT era we did and a super linear deck referred to as "Canadian Miracles" evolved with just 20 lands and maindeck pyroblast.
DTT got the axe and now more fair decks popped up. Chalice of the Void, Ancestral Vision and Life from the Loam are all cards in the metagame because of how dominant miracles is. The mirror is also something that went from a fringe archetype 3 years ago to the number one deck (the most common deck on MTGO and probably soon enough irl, if it's not nerfed in time by Wizards).
How do we approach this expected metagame by reducing loopsided elements? The answer is to lower the curve and by doing so we can go from 23,22,21 to 20 lands once again.
How do we cast Entreat the angels you think? We don't. It's just gone. What do we play instead? Mentor? No, the answer is "nothing". How do we win? Let me explain.
If you avoid the 3 steps above AND play in a timely fashion you often don't need to actually "win" game 1. If your plan is to answer everything and establish a significant advantage your opponent will likely concede to the board and save time. If he don't you just need to play fast or aim for the 1-0-1 because your opponent is stupid.
It's all coming back to establishing a significant advantage while taking the least possible risk. With 1-2 Entreat the angels and 1-2 lands allready gone we also want to cut 1 Jace, tms. The holy cow of miracles is less needed for a few reasons:
1) we don't need to rely so heavily on setting up ETA
2) we want to avoid clunky 4drops in our openers.
3) we rather make sure Jace resolve and survive when we cast him rather than just jam bombs until something sticks (much more risks involved at a higher mana cost).
So from the slots we got by removing 2 ETA, 2 Lands and 1 Jace we need spells to establish "a significant advantage while taking the least possible risk". The best, most manaefficient and "unconditional", answers we can chose from (not allready played in playsets) are Counterspell and Spell Snare (and in some metagames, pyroblast/reb). My list feature 2 of each.
So how will counterspells help with consistency? What If I draw them when I am facing a lethal Tarmogoyf? Again we have to go back and look at the cards we replaced. You still risk that something to slip through your wall of instants but it's less likely for several reasons. You don't tap out, your curve is generally lower and you have more cards that can answer their card.
The key, the glue and the savior to how it all comes together is the card Predict. This has been on and off in my list since I picked the deck up in 2009 and with the approach above it's a perfect match.
The more instants you have the more options you get and when your opponent stumbles you just cast Ancestral Recall. It's "almost" that good because not only will you get pure CA but getting rid of a Terminus vs Storm or a Force of will when Gaddock Teeg is in play counts for almost a card aswell. It's extremly easy to set up between Counterbalance, Jace, Top, Brainstorm, Ponder and Snapcaster you will almost allways know the top card. Then there's additional "reveal" off of opposing Delvers, Counterbalances, tutors etc.
2 Predict compensates more than enough for the Jace I cut. I will stick out my neck and say that I think Predict is actually BETTER than Jace in most blue matchups.
For the final slots I want to maximize our instants and how better than with a full set of snapcaster mage? Snapcaster has allways been one of the key cards in miracles but the problem is allways to have enough targets. I ran one in the sideboard for a long time just because most of the goodies where there (reb, flusterstorm etc). The card is just lacking in game 1 against decks where flashbacking swords to plowshares is not an option. Here we have additional copies of Counterspell, Spell Snare and Predict rather than Jace, lands and Entreat the angels. Vendilion Clique is also an option.
Some notes about sideboarding before I show the list.
With ETA out of the picture as a way to beat the "fair" decks we need something else. Re-Introducing Blood Moon. Instead of going over the top we just take the pace down to our comfort zone of "do nothing".
The rest of the sideboard is pretty stock with snapcaster and efficient spells in mind. I play the stoneforge package as it's a very manaefficient way to defend yourself (unlike mentor which require a more heavy investment) and as a way to win fast if you for some reason lost the first game. This package is more of "Terminus 5-7" than anything else.
So far the deck has performed VERY well on MTGO vs very good opponents with very good decks but it's far from finished. Please let me know what you think of the approach and how to improve it.
Predictable Miracles
CREATURES (4)
4 Snapcaster Mage
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Counterbalance
SORCERIES (8)
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
INSTANTS (18)
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Predict
PLANESWALKERS (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
ARTIFACTS (4)
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
LANDS (20)
1 Mountain
4 Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Blood Moon
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
2 Wear // Tear
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Containment Priest
Yes. A couple things I am on the fence about - a) the 2-0 / 1-0-1 mentality, b) only 2 red sources
Long short short, you're maxing out cantrips. I get it. It's Ein's school of thoughts, if you can max out cantrips, run minimal number of lands, than have 1 or 2 win condition, you would do it. It has an Omni-tell flavor to it. However, there're several issues.
1. The ceiling is so low
Let's say you're on predictable miracles,
your opponent goes first.
turn 1 opponent: land SDT.
now it's your turn 1, you play your land, but you want to keep your land up because you know it's a mirror, you want to use the brainstorm/spell snare in your hand in case....
turn 2 opponent: land CB.
now you either play snare or brainstorm, hoping to hit a FoW. You do either, the miracles opponent counters back. Opponent's CB resolves.
You're now on almost-concede mode. Your only out is the abnormally low Jace count, and there is no reliable way of resolving Jace in the most fortunate circumstance. Above scenario is to demonstrate how low the ceiling is when you run a setup such as this predictable miracles. You have no Karakas-Clique, no Cavern, you just sit there and consider maybe you should concede to save time.
2. Is the CA generated by Snapcaster good enough against Shardless BUG
Without any decent payoff cards, your Snapcaster flashing back a cantrip into more cantrip/stp still won't deal with Tarpit, Goyf, Suspended Vision, Planeswalker(s). It's not even close to a catch-all solution against any combinations of the angles of attack from the Shardless side. Best case scenario you flash-back a Red blast effect to stop a vision and then maybe get to take Liliana down 2 loyalty counter before Snapcaster dies, then what? How do you win from there? Remember CB is not reliable in this MU.
I have to admit, I've been through this stage also. This cantrip into cantrip into sculpting your hand is great for preparing one big turn to combo off, that's what Omni-tell does, that's All Omni-tell did. In this case, your pay off is just assembling a CB-T, or playing a Jace and be able to protect it. I don't see much to gain by approaching Miracles this way.
I agree with your choices and I would play something similar. My comments :
. I think you need a second volcanic island, just to be able to fetch U/R 2 times in a game (especially postboard vs Miracle)
. I tested spell snare just after the dig ban in daze Miracle and it didn't perform well for me. Against chalice, it won't work on the play since you have 4 top/4 ponder and won't be able to foreseen T1 chalice. On the draw, it will already be too late. For later chalices, you'll have counterspells already. But like you, I hate council judgment (3 mana sorcery). Without maindeck mentor/entreat, you'll also have problems answering lilis though. With maindeck mountain (that i love), I would suggest -2 snare +1 reb +1 something. I hope that judgment is not a necessary evil (I like cunning wish, but it is too expensive) - A threat like mentor might have the best shot at winning a game vs unanswered T1 Chalice / unanswered Lili.
. I think that the 2 sb moon are really important with only 1 MD plains to be able to beat Lands. This advocates for MD Clique that allows to get rid of Krosan grip before casting moon. I don't know about your sb plans against shardless. I personnally hate to board in moon when it isn't necessary - that's why I'm suggesting 1 Maindeck entreat, with second white source to fetch the one time you cast it.
To sum it up, I would suggest MD:
-1 snap -2 snare -1 island
+1 pyroblast +1 volc +1 entreat +1 vendilion clique/mentor
Depending on meta, I would also consider -1 stp +1 reb md and -1 reb +1 pyroclasm sb, which could lead to -sfm +mentor sb (but not necessarily).
Jemand musste Joseph K. verleumdet haben, denn ohne dass er etwas Böses getan hätte, wurde er eines Morgens verhaftet.
RE 1. So youre saying the reason to not play this deck is if your opponent in the mirror has the nut draw vs you when on the play?
RE 2. I suspect you've played a lot of Miracles, and I'm actually really surprised that you're not giving Snapcaster more credit. That being said, I will agree that Shardless is tricky to beat with just 4 Snapcaster and 2 JTMS. That being said, Snapcaster is still really really fucking good.
I don't get why people shave entreats when its currently better than ever.
Admittedly Mackan may have to expand more on this decision (and will do a better job explaining), but the general idea is that Entreat is just too clunky. In this fashion of Miracles, similar to Canadian Miracles, the idea is to lower the curve to produce a hyperefficient deck. Entreat does not resonate with that plan too well. The game plan of Snapcaster beats is a lot more fragile than making a bunch of angels in the sense that Snapcaster dies quite easily; however, your game plan with this deck (and honestly, any variant of Miralces) from the get-go is not "make a bunch of lethal angels", but moreso to establish "control" (which Mackan is arguing to be a win condition itself - a premise that could and should be discussed more in-depth I imagine). Snapcaster does this much better at most stages in the game.
EDIT: I can also see sideboarded copies of Entreat for the matchups where Snapcaster beats aren't enough (ex. Jund/Aggro Loam), though not having Plains x2 is kinda wonky.
Fundamentally, it's the difference in philosophies, as in, there is no right and wrong on this. I admit that this consistency route in many MUs would enable you to make all the necessary land drops. However, the cards itself, the individual cards, they are weak by itself.
Think this way, your win conditions in this setup are JtMS and Snapcasters. How likely are these cards get you the victories? I suspect JtMS would make it happen more often than Snapcater. Now why would I say JtMS, obviously because the individual power level of that card is higher.
The same thing goes back to Snapcaster vs. Clique. I have a love-hate relationship with Snapcaster. It's a necessary card in Miracles, even the SCG commentators have mentioned that Miracles have little ways to generate CA; yet CB-T is virtual CA. Snapcaster is the best way and probably the few way to generate such CA. However, Snapcaster can't trade a 3/3 mongoose and cannot block a flying Delver, yet those 3/2 and 3/3 are just... popular, at least in my local area. If we are referring to individual strength of the card, I've won more games with just Clique alone, rarely Snapcaster would get me there. When it comes to MU against unfair decks, the ability to Clique opponent's hand is so much more important than say... flashback a red blast.
In conclusion, if someone asks me which card to buy first in order to complete his Miracles, snapcaster or clique? I would answer snapcaster without much thoughts. However, I would also mention that Snapcaster would enable you to Not lose, but to win the game, you probably still want Clique somewhere in your 75.
Last edited by twndomn; 12-15-2015 at 02:51 PM.
*off-topic*
Such a pitty it never really worked out. These lists were insane! Atleast they looked like it.
Testing list - GP Lille - #7
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Dig Through Time
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Polluted Delta
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 4 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 2 Batterskull
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
Greetings
I wanted to try something new so I did some testing with this list. I like the idea of having cavern and using more creatures to shake things up and keep my opponent off guard. During testing I lost 2 games from flood. Did you find you had this problem?
That actually looks quite bad.
I've been playing mort's list for the last few weeks, with some minor adjustments/having it evolved a little.
The list have been incredibly strong for me, basically as strong as before Miracles was the de-facto best deck and everyone trying to beat us.
Played 6 rounds in our stores weekly legacy Tuesday yesterday to a 5-1 finish, losing the first round to Infect. I went to terminus, and he had 3 pieces of interaction (Spell pierce, Daze and Force of Will). Didn't see any other white cards, in both games, which meant I lost that match.
Beat:
UB Sinkhole kitchentable.dec (2-0) with hypnotics, rancid rains, goodstuff from when I played kitchen magic myself. CB/Top proved why you don't lose to random cards.
Death&Taxes (2-1):
Game 1 he missplayed by not flickering my fetchland in response to my top-activation, so I got a 3 for 1 there, and quickly assembled CB/Top+Jace and won the game on the back of that.
-2 Jace, -2 Counterspell, -2 Ponder, +1 Engineered Explosives, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Izzet Staticaster, +2 Wear // Tear, +1 Containment Priest
G2 he curved T1 Vial, T2 port + Mom, T3 Wasteland + Port my land + Thalia, t4 Needle on my Explosives + Wryn Nightmare. I was never really in that game.
G3 I got to set up a terminus, which got rid of Mom, Thalia, Wryn nightmare. Assembled CB+Top, and he never resolved anything else. Had the force for his cataclysm.
Elves (2-0):
Terminus did it's job in G1. Stabilized on 4 live, and Jace won the game (through snapcaster beats).
-2 jace, -2 Counterspell, +2 Wear // Tear, +1 Engineered Explosives, +1 Izzet Staticaster.
G2 was a grindfest, where he had 2 arbor elves that keep on coming back. Eventually I got to block one of them with Snapcaster, where the brainstorm it flashed back found CB + Staticaster. Was pretty easy to win afterwards.
MUD (2-0):
He always plays MUD, and he's the Big Mana-Mud, with cloudposts, but no wastelands and ports and stuff.
He didn't have Chalice on 1, and I got to set it up so I turn 2 got rid of a metalwork + Forgemaster. Turn 3 I played a mentor, with a force in hand, and played top the turn after. I won two turns afterwards, with Jace bouncing Steel hellkite twice.
-4 Counterbalance, +2 Wear // Tear, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Vendilion Clique
Game 2, He played a lot of ramp in the first few turns, which meant, in his turn 4, I flashed in a clique in his drawstep - he drew a blightsteel, he was 3 mana from casting. He got to keep that, I had swords (he had a chalice), Wear // Tear, Council's Judgement. Clique beats basically won the game, with me killing a wurmcoil (Judgement) and Battlesphere (Wear//Tear). His own Ancient Tomb helped me kill him, though.
Mirror (2-0):
Game 1: I had turn 1 top of Tundra. He had t1 top of plains. I had turn 2 CB. he had force, so did I. I countered some of his spells, he resolved a mentor, but I had the terminus right away. He conceded pretty fast.
-3 Swords, -3 Terminus, -1 Plains, -1 Council's Judgement. +3 REB, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Vendilion Clique, +2 Wear//Tear.
The game was pretty durdly, we both counterspelled Vendilion Cliques, but I slammed a mentor on t5, with neither of us having a top (he forced (pitching force) my turn 1 top). The turn after I played Counterbalance - with Force, Brainstorm, Snapcaster, Flusterstorm in hand - He counterspelled my Balance, to which I responded with brainstorm. He flusterstormed my brainstorm, I forced his Counterspell (Targetting my balance), he flusterstormed my force, to stop balance, but I flusterstormed his flusterstorm, targetting my flusterstorm. It basically meant I had a balance, 4 monks and a mentor. I revealed a ponder to his brainstorm, and won the turn after with two triggers.
My list is:
- 4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Jace, the mind sculptor
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Council's Judgement
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Vencilion Clique
Board:
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Blood Moon
1 Rest in Peace
2 Wear //Tear
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Containment Priest
1 Entreat the Angels
I have been really happy with this list for the last long time, and I don't expect to change anything, unless something drastic happens (banning of xx, unbanning of yy).
If you cut 2 Snapcaster for 2 Mentor, do you seriously doubt the win percentage for the deck jumps significantly?
Sorry for the delay, but here are my replies:
@dsck (and partially mike1987):
CoS was insane. Just being able to resolve the creature you want (especialy Clique) against blue decks, most of all control and combo is such an amazing advantage to have.
Gideon was pretty good, he was there mainly against the many midrange decks that usually plague the meta, and he didn't dissapoint in those matchups. You should try him against Shardless, really shines in that matchup. Not sure if I would bring him to a less midrange and more open meta though (e.g. for GP Prague).
@mike1987:
I've tried 4 ponders several times, but I feel it too often cantrips into more cantrips instead of actual cards. The maindeck is tight as is, so it's a difficult choice what to cut. This is just my preferred playstyle though. I don't feel it changes the constistency all that much, as I feel with the core of 4 Top and 4 BS the deck is pretty consistent as is, the ponders just help smooth things out.
@Misersoneof:
Don't feel like this list floods out any more than others in perticular, but it's unfortunately something that happens from time to time. I feel that the deck in general has pretty good control over the amount of lands it draws, and with so many fetches and brainstorm effects it might be wise to keep a few behind to turn into better cards. I often side out lands (I'm looking at you Plains) out in Control/Combo matchups, so that reduces the amount in the matchups where you least need them.
I get a lot of questions regarding the lack of an actual "win-con" and it's true that Jace, Mentor or Entreat the angels are all better at closing games than snapcaster mage. What some people fail to realize is that on average this version of the deck will not only have more cards but on average also of a higher quality. If we assume an empty board (that the consistency of our deck helped us to), 4 lands on our side and with us with a SDT in play. Our opponent cast a Delver of Secrets with 4 cards in hand and 1 untapped land. For a traditional build of miracles this situation is still fine but just to give you an idea of the differences could play out;
1) "traditional" hand is 1 land, 1 jace, 1 counterspell. You counterspell Delver, play your fifth land to avoid Daze and cast Jace into Force of will. Your top 3 are land, Force of will and Jace. So you decide to just try to cast Jace again next turn.
2) "predictable" hand is snapcaster mage, spell snare, jace. You cast eot snapcaster mage for brainstorm and look at the top3 which is now predict, spell snare and jace. Your hand is land, counterspell and swords to plowshares.
Instead of going for Jace you take another turn "off" by neutralizing the board and cast Swords on the Delver. Opponent cast a Gurmag Angler next turn and you cast Predict in response. Here's the sweet part about the deck. Either your opponent answers Predict and let you cast Jace or you cast Predict to draw into an answer to their answer to Jace. Even though you run only 20 lands you have the mana advantage because you force interaction, by casting your threaths, during their turn. What's even better, just take another turn not casting jace and set up a snapcaster+predict to draw into even more answers. Once Jace or cb/top enters the battlefield you will have more answers in hand than they have cards. At which point Snapcaster is just a free 2 mana cycler. It'll take a few turns to end the game but by each turn Snapcaster mage is attacking your hand size increases and your opponent will sink in his chair.
It's very hard to compare two cards in magic but comparing two gameplans is even harder. With the above example I hope to bring some light to the subject. I am not saying this version is strictly better and I know there are other faults but for now I will continue to develop this as it fits my playstyle more than medium-risk/high-payoff cards. If you want to be harsh you can say I prefer low-risk/minimal-payoff because I think that this minimal advantages are often better than medium risk, no matter what the payoff is. Atleast this is true for miracles which has such an insane suite of answers.
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