Didn't see this posted here, but Paul Lynch and Michael Scheffenacker did really well with this at the Snapcasters store:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zZzRmk8G8k
Well, that was really cool. Didn't think to cut all the fast mana like Mox Diamond. I'm also shocked that they said Endless One was one of the best cards in the deck, as I imagined a stupid vanilla beater wouldn't really do anything in a format as fast and tricky as Legacy is. I wonder if Thorn of Amethyst is better than Trinisphere given how few non-creature spells are there and the dis-synergy with Eye of Ugin's cost reduction effect.Originally Posted by Minniehajj
Thorn could very well be right. I've been playing the deck for a few days, and while I don't have extensive experience yet, the 3 non-Eldrazi mana require for Trinisphere can be quite awkward. It also semi-hoses Eye, because after Trinisphere, Eye doesn't synergize with Mimic, Reshaper, and only shaves 1 from Thought-Knot.
That said, for all the awkwardness Trinisphere causes us, it is always much worse for the opponent... I mean, this is Legacy, and it's Trinisphere.
@Minniehajj, that video is cool, but something leapt out at me. Dude says that casting Metamorph copying Emrakul gets you the extra turn. That can't possibly be correct, can it?
Correct, this point is wrong in the video and the player found out later that this was not, in fact, the case. You are casting Phyrexian Metamorph, not Emrakul, as Metamorph only becomes Emrakul after it's already been cast.
Cool, thanks for the clarification.
I've not been dead set on a list so far, but the one in the video looks pretty cool. I haven't been running Revoker or Equipment so far, but I've been feeling like Jitte would be awesome for this deck, and Revoker almost always has something painful to name and looks right in line with the speedy disruption plan.
I'm thinking I'll cut that Metamorph for another Reshaper or something (looks like only 1 Reshaper in the video). Will try to write a mini-tournament report here by tomorrow.
Yeah, without any Mox Diamond, Simian Spirit Guide, etc., we can't ever cast it turn 1 and frequently can't cast it on turn 2, which is a serious problem; these lock pieces need to come down early to be maximally effective. Also, multiple Thorns are good, whereas multiple 3balls are useless. In the video, he said both Trinisphere and Chalice are kind of dead versus D+T, so going with Thorn won't create any huge problem there, but I imagine Elves becomes seriously worse when we choose to run Thorn over Sphere.
He said Reshaper was useless and should be another Metamorph or the fourth City, so you probably should think twice about that.
Reshaper hasn't been as awesome as he looks, but it's still decent-to-good. The thing I like most about it is its cost. Still got time to finalize a list for tonight, I'll think about it.
The Revoker and Equipment is a nod to Shops, the vintage deck that the eldrazi iterations have taken a lot of inspiration from, and they always do well in shops decks.
Just for refernce, my latest testing list
4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
2 Kozilek's Shrieker
1 Endbringer
3 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
4 Warping Wail
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Eye of Ugin
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
SB: 4 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Endbringer
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Spatial Contortion
Hey guys,
just a few impressions. I´m with this deck since the first day "oath of the gatewatch" came out. I tried a lot of different styles (with post and without it, with endless one and witout, cavern of souls in and out ...)
the list posted in the video is very interesting and very close to what I came up with. I just got a few changes:
First I would cut Trinisphere. As already mentioned we got no Grim monolith to push it out turn 1 and more important our eye of ugin is no longer that good. I got 3 Thorns in my sideboard against Storm. Together with Phyrexian revoker and Chalice this should be enough.
I also cut Matter reshaper. Just not good enough. For these 4 slots I put in 4 Mindstones. I had these in my eldrazi decks since the first day and I never wanted to miss them. The first turn they ramp and later you just cycle them. And also very important. It is Bloodmoon resistent. If your opponent puts a bloodmoon into play, 70% of our deck is uncastable. By playing Mindstones you got additional coloreless mana.
Second I play 2 Crystal vein instead of the 4. Cavern of souls and the 1 Urborg. Seems like it gives me a little bit more speed at the beginnning.
Third I play 1 Ulamog ceaseless Hunger for the late game. for example to remove a ensnaring bridge, Jace and other nerving stuff. Therefor I cut the sword.
the further changes you can see in my list below:
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Thought Knot seer
4 Reality smasher
4 endless one
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Endbringer
1 ulamog ceaseless hunger
4 Mindstone
4 Chalice of the void
4 warping wail
1 all is dust
4 ancient tomb
4 wasteland
4 eldrazi temple
3 eye of ugin
3 city of traitors
3 cavern of souls
2 crystal vein
its pretty consistent. hope you guys like it. I would appreciate feedback.
For what its worth i like the list a lot :P
Even if i don't personally like traitors in lists with ulamogs and slightly higher cmcs. I could see 1 or 2 traitors but not more. Mindstone is something i'll probably try again. Those 10-12 flex spots are really crucial but also really hard to get imho. I liked a lot the sideboard from the video tho', it's probably the right one with the possibility of 1 nulamog to put in there if you run mind stones and a slightly higher average cmc deck.
Hey everyone! Just started jamming this after the PT debuted it in Modern. Basically, I'm keen for it to get banned there so I can lap up all the scrappy cards that people sell off and jam this in Legacy, heh! This version is basically a Modern port with adaptations for Legacy, of course. I think in terms of what version this is (as outlined in MD.Ghost's categories), it's an Aggro list through and through. It has felt pretty strong and consistently does what it needs to do, unless it gets the generic Stompy topdecks that happen in the late game (which is to be expected).
Creatures: (25)
4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
1 Endbringer
Non-Creature Spells: (11)
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
Lands: (24)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Sideboard: (15)
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spellskite
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Endbringer
1 Cursed Totem
So thoughts on this list so far:
- "You run too many lands!" so people have said. I think 24 lands is reasonable, since you do want to supply Diamonds with lands and the curve, despite how low it seems, does cap out at five. Wasteland/Port etc. are also a thing, and can really cripple you, so I've erred on a higher amount. That being said, I am no expert (in Dragon Stompy I have played 20 lands before, but that's with 4 SSG and 4 Chrome Mox) and I'm keen to hear what the best land count would be for this list.
- "You should run 4 Eye of Ugin" so people have said. Unlike the more midrange versions, I think this thought has merit, though I'm not sure which lands to cut from the mana base. This deck prides itself on its explosive draws which Eye is conducive to, and excess Eyes pitch to Diamond as well. That beng said, multiple Eyes in hand do not cast Chalice or Revoker and in general increase the high-variance nature of this list.
- The weakest of all the creatures is Matter Reshaper. The card is fine, and actual quite nice in fair BUG matchups where he can get in some points and then chump a Goyf and get value, but against white-based removal, combo etc. he has often been boarded out. I am considering other Eldrazi/colourless creatures for this slot. That being said, he's still fine.
- Endless One has been great, and I've never been sad to see him.
- Mimic is an awful Goblin Piker topdeck, but against certain combo matchups I feel he is necessary to give you explosive enough draws.
- Revoker has been great. Having more turn two plays that can also be a soft-lock and just a general flexible answer is great. I'm basically never sad to see him in my opening hand.
- Endbringer is the only flex-slot Eldrazi I've been really utilising as a tutorable Eye target. That being said, I've never cast him yet in my limited testing. In fact, in this version I've never activated Eye at all! He seems great as a sideboard tutor target for grindy matchups, but maybe in the main, to limit my curve, I could just make him a second Dismember.
- Wail has been continually great and I might try and find room for 4 in the 75. I want some number of Dismember too, as kiling Magus of the Moon, Painter's Servant, Batterskulls and Tarmogoyfs etc. is important.
- The sideboard is a hodgepodge and I would love suggestions. Thorns, Bombs, Crypt and Skite have pulled their weight so far (Skite is mainly to protect Chalice) and I think the extra removal is valid too. Crucible, extra Endbringer and Totem may be too cute and just become other things.
Some changes I might consider:
- I want to try Bearer of Silence. Being able to remove a singular threat has been hard with only Wail and Dismember. This may replace Matter Reshaper. That being said, we only have 2 Urborg, 4 Diamond and 3 Cavern to cast him effectively (I might up Caverns to four if I incorporate him). Is this enough? Nonetheless, the card seems powerful.
- Is running less lands and just trying Simian Spirit Guide an idea? I can't say I've flooded too much, Stompy decks tend to at times anyway, but as I've mentioned, people have been irked by my high-ish land count.
- Instead of Cavern and maybe some Wastelands, is running a manland package viable? I like Factory as threats that can keep clocking while you whiff on draw steps. I find myself always a few points short of victory when I lose, so having extra pressure would be nice.
- I don't like the idea of a Wastes in the deck since we can't actually go find it, but Blood Moon wrecks our face. In fact, the whole Painter deck does >_< I think we should just concede these matchups since they're not too popular though.
- Is there more fatties I should run? I hate upping the curve, but having more late game bombs can be good in grindy matchups. I've been modest and only have the two Endbringers, but Oblvion Sower and Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger were in my initial drafts.
- Sideboard needs some tinkering still. I think I want to incorporate some equipment like Jitte over the Totem - as this covers relevant matchups while still being just a generally strong card.
And my thoughts on matchups:
Favourable:
- Most combo decks (T1 Chalice into T2 TKS is dirty, Revoker, Thorns out of board... Yeah we're good.)
- Miracles (same deal, Smasher demands a Terminus alone)
- Stoneblade decks (you can lose to a fast Batterskull, but Wail, Revoker, TKS and Dismember give you multiple avenues of defeating that)
Medium:
- Delver decks. This is mainly due to my list's poor removal suit. You can also get Daze and Forced out of the game while the Delver goes unchecked, like most Stompy lists, and Wasteland really hurts us. On the play though T1 Chalice is rough, per usual.
- BUG variants. Chalice can get Decayed and our threats can get quickly outclassed by Goyfs. Basically you need to Smash through or you're in trouble. Lili can also be troublesome as a way to easily kill Smasher. Reshaper shines here though, while Mimic is garbagey.
Poor:
- Non-blue midrange. They usually don't care too much about Chalice on 1 and have threats which can outclass our non-Smasher ones. Having more fatties would be nice here, as then we can go bigger.
- Death & Taxes. Their mana denial cripples us absurdly and Vial gets around Chalice on two, while they don't care too much about Chalice on 1.
Anyway, thanks for hearing me ramble on; I would love to hear your thoughts on the list. The deck is absurdly fun though, and I've played most Stompy variants and this one has felt like it has the ability to be at times by far the most broken and explosive.
Thanks!
Last edited by ChemicalBurns; 02-09-2016 at 12:06 AM.
I'm not sure D+T is a bad matchup. These decks play more goyf-like creatures than actual goyf decks and D+T has limited removal. Chalice on 1 is very good on the play, and Revoker shuts off whatever you want it to. Unlike MUD, mana denial doesn't seem as strong here because you can play a solid game w/ 2-3 lands out. Warping Wail kills everything. Mom does nothing and Thalia does very little.
I think this is definitely the case for more midrange variants, but my list at least has been having trouble since it's centred around the smaller threats. Even a simple Thalia can brick a board of Mimics and Reshaper, and the Mimics are hard to grow when they're Waste-Porting you. That being said, if any large threat resolves I'm sure you win (I won when I got to five mana for Smasher, but otherwise they reached their endgame of Batterskull and fliers faster). Especially if said threat is an Endbringer or something.
And iatee, as a fellow D&Ter like yourself, I also know the power of Revoker in this matchup. I think it's definitely something that may help push it a little more favourably. To be honest, I've only faced D&T a few times with the deck, and I'd say they got stronger-than-average draws (Vial early to make my Chalice poor + heavy mana denial) so maybe results are a bit skewed. If they had a non-Vial draw or we get to Chalice @ 1 on the play, perhaps the matchup easily swings into Eldrazi's favour.
has anybody put any thought/testing into guardian idol yet?
replacing grim monolith/mindstones.
DnT has 3-4 MD flickerwisp which could deny Chalices.
I hear they got twisters miles wide in the Midwest.
And kill Endless One.
Welp, I said I'd write up something after my event tonight.
Long story short, crash and burn.
I played 71/75 from the video at the top of this page. -1 Sword of Fire and Ice, -1 Phyrexian Metamorph, -2 Wasteland, +1 Umezawa's Jitte (yes, 2nd one maindeck), +1 Matter Reshaper, +1 Eye of Ugin, +1 City of Traitors.
Round 1 vs BUG Delver
G1 - I lost the roll. I kept a sketchy 7, only 1 double land (City). He plays Deathrite, I go City -> Revoker for Deathrite. He plays Goyf, I play Chalice for 1, miss 2nd land drop. He plays Hymn, I scoop in response, hoping he'll think I'm on MUD.
I'm not sure if he's Delver or Shardless, but I bring in 2x Dismember, 1x Spatial Contortion, bring out 2x Endbringer and something else.
G2 - I keep Eye, 2x Endless One, Mimic, Revoker, Ancient Tomb, Warping Wail. I play 6 power worth of stuff on turn 1, he plays Delver. I Wail the Delver, crash in for 6. He plays Deathrite, I attack for 6, then Revoke the Deathrite. He scoops.
G3 - I keep a hand with 2x Eye, small creatures, Ancient Tomb. He plays Delver, I lead with Eye, Mimic, hoping he Wastes my Eye. He flips Delver with Golgari Charm, attacks, Wastelands me. I play Tomb, Revoker for Liliana of the Veil, attack with Mimic. He plays Goyf, and I start drawing a bunch of Reality Smashers, but a 2nd Wasteland keeps me off 5 mana, and Golgari Charm wipes my board.
Round 2 vs UW Death and Taxes
Playing against a friend, and I know her deck.
G1 - I lose the roll, keep 3 Endless Ones, Ancient Tomb, Eldrazi Temple, Warping Wail, Thought-Knot. I draw another Warping Wail, which I think will be awesome against DnT. I start deploying big Endless Ones, but Batterskull keeps her in the game. After Stoneforge, she has Mirran Crusader, the double-strike granting Soulbond guy, and Geist. Those guys are 2/2s, and Warping Wail does nothing. I end up scooping to save time.
I board out Chalice and Trinisphere for Dismember, Contortion, Ratchetbomb, and Endbringer. Not sure if bringing out Chalice is right, as it can hose a hand that relies on Vial, and it gets Sword to Plowshares, but removal seemed very appealing.
G2 - I have another decent hand, start Thought-Knoting and Revoking, get more Warping Wails, but have no targets for the Wails. I get clobbered by double-striking Geist of Saint Traft and Soulbond guy, with Swords and Batterskulls on the table.
Round 3 I get the bye, and with no chance for prize, I decide to leave :(
I feel like I had a couple bad/not great match-ups. Wasteland can be a huge problem. This deck really wants to play against combo decks so bad. Blue Death and Taxes randomly having a bunch of 2/2s instead of 1/Xs or X/1s felt kind of unlucky, but I'm not sure how this deck does against regular DnT. I would imagine were usually great, because our creatures are mega-badasses, and Mother of Runes does nothing, but I haven't actually played against a classic build with this deck.
Kinda bummed that the deck played so miserably, but I'm eager to play the deck again. The casual games I have played with my previous build were awesome, and I can't help but think there is actual power here.
Wasteland is a gargantuan problem. Not sure what to do about that. Can't really play Needle in a Chalice of the Void deck. I guess we just man up and accept that the card is good against us. One thing that I noticed in my games was that I never wanted to use my own Wastelands. That's probably a side effect of the deck being so hungry for mana against opposing Wastelands. Against certain decks, I can see how Chalice -> Trinisphere -> Big Guy or 2 -> Wasteland can be very strong, but at that point, Wasting them might just be "win more." I might try Crystal Veins next time.
I realize there's not a ton of valuable information here, but I was planning to write something up before the tournament, so I did.
Works good so far - BUG Delver seemed to be the best version against this deck, because they can play midrange very well and they have decay, hymn, liliana, gofy along with the wasteland and fast delver stuff. Overall im still positive against Delver. (which my midrange version)
Mox Diamond should always paired with 1-2 Crucible, this will address one of the weakest points: Wasteland and will also work very well with City, multiple Eyes etc.
Endless One is great as mentioned a lot, he is on of the guys that can grow bigger than Gofy, Knight or a Smasher in the Mirror. Sure he will die to decay (see weakness vs BGx Decks), but on the other hand he will also be a king with Eye etc. - play 2-4 of him.
Thorn should be main at any aggro build. Trinisphere is not good enough with Eye+Mimic Plan and the builds also run City so getting Thorn turn 1 seems strong enough. It will also makes your opponent to think about using Wasteland ;)
Reshaper is very good against non White stuff, i think he gets better if you play more midrange or ramp because he will buy some time (and can ramp into land, manastones) and is better alone than Mimic. I like him vs BGx and Burn (stops every Creature and can die into thorn/sphere^^).
Thought about it. I think you could test it in a Mind Stone Slot - tapped into play is ok, because you ramp only for the following turn (unless Grim wich can ramp for more the turn you play it).
So we can use:
Mind Stone (draws a card later)
Guardian Idol (2/2 if the board is dead)
Talisman of X (get you colored mana for Eldrazi! I think Black can work, because with Cavern, Urborg and Talisman we get some slots for that idea)
----------------------------------------------------
I will switch my midrange build to the ramp version (testing it till yesterday)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Eye of Ugin
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Endless One
2 Oblivion Sower
1 Conduit of Ruin
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Warping Wail
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Grim Monolith
3 Talisman of Dominance/Mind Stone etc.
2 All Is Dust
1 Trinisphere
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 3 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Bearer of Silence/Dismember (something to kill big ones!)
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
Needle is a thing i dont like (used 3 revokers), but it can help vs Wasteland, Thespian etc. - still testing. Maze can also be 3rd All is Dust, Karn, Endbringer, Jitte etc. so some slots for improvement. Rest works good so far.
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