Hey all, been a little bit since I posted. I was having pretty good success with my delver variant until a 75 ish player tournament in my home state of Maryland. I went 1-3 and dropped. Got beat by Shardless BUG, Enchantress and Burn. My only win was against a budget RUG Delver list (no tarmogoyfs).
Some of the things that bothered me were;
Tasigur : the 4 power really let me down against opposing Tarmogoyfs in the BUG matchup. Not to mention (despite the popularity) I have always been told by more experienced players "cards that let your opponent make the decisions are usually bad." In my case they pick Stifle or something and I'm like...."greaaaaaat" I just payed 4 to return a stifle to my hand and I should have been doing something else better. The Esper charm idea is really exciting to me. I never thought of it! It's utility seems really good. And I could be casting that instead of using Tasigur's ability EOT. That said, Gurmag Angler is the delve critter of choice for me. Not that Tombstalker isn't better ( cause it is) but, the double black seems to be a deterrent for most. I will admit I haven't cast a Tombstalker since my BUG Delver days, so I can't hate on it.
Cantrips: okay, before everyone says wtf. I know it's the easiest way to pop out a lil mentor baby and refill your hand. However, too many times I needed gas and all I draw off my cantrips is MORE cantrips. Then MM gets burned, exiled or decayed and I got a brainstorm, ponder, stifle in hand. So I brainstorm and see Deathrite, land, cabal therapy. Is anyone else having this problem? Which brings me back to the Esper charm idea. I like it, it's different. Also doesn't hit me for three when I cast it. I feel like Unearth isn't too cute of a card. I definitely think a 4th STP should get priority over it but, I think a spot is warranted. Recursion is a good thing especially when it...yup you guessed it, cantrips!
I put together Patrick Chapin's list as a result of my bad tournament outing. Same thing, cantrips on top of cantrips. Which now has me thinking, what "good stuff" could we play in leu of cantrips. When I play against Miracles they take huge advantage of Sensei's Top's. Two Tops and a Mentor is ridiculous. What about cards that make tokens and just DO more. Zealous Persecution is bananas with mentor so why not main deck one. Unearth as a one of because my turn one Deathrite always gets nixed so I know I'll have a target. Abrupt Decay (if your heavy into splash green) or maybe a Smother main decked to go along with the 4 STP's. Esper charm at first glance seems to be the kinda "bullet" I'm looking for to kind of end some of the redundancy. I'd maybe cut stifles in a Delver shell (ponder is to important for flipping delivers to cut). Probably would cut Ponder in Chapin's list (brainstorm and probes already) maybe split Esper charm and painful truth's 1/1. Any thoughts?
Went 0-3 tonight. Beginning to wonder how much of this is me and how much is the deck. Lost to Elves 1-2. This shouldn't happen. Not to a deck running FoW, STP and Zealous Persecution in the board. The one game I lost to a top deck Natural Order into Progenitous. Hand was FoW, Mentor, something else not blue. Lost to Grixis Delver 1-2. This match-up is dependent upon weather we can stabilize before being dealt enough damage that you die to a top deck bolt. Duh, I know. Just gotta respond to Young Pyro before he gets out of hand, Delver too. Lost to Storm 1-2. Kind of awkward match because Mentor doesn't hit till turn 3 let's say. You have to have FoW plus blue card in hand to go for him. By then I've already spent my discard trying to keep him off base and I'm holding counter magic. Doesn't seem like the best way to take advantage of Mentor.
I did try to change it up a bit. Used Chapin's list except -2 Painful Truths +2 Esper Charm (never drew one in 9 games!) -3 Probe +2 Liliana of the Viel +1 Unearth.
Originally Posted by Megatron
Well there is your problem. The only reason Chapin made day 2 with that list is because he's Chapin. He could have made day 2 of the legacy GP with a sealed deck. That list was trying to do way too many things and it looked like a total mess. Deathrite looks perfect for this deck, but is a trap and makes the deck much worse. Lily is not too great in this deck because BB is hard to make with a good manabase and her +1 is pretty bad for a mentor deck. Cute stuff like unearth, or clique/karakas don't really have a place here either. There are more powerful and consistent things we could be doing in those slots.
I have not had much time for magic lately because of work/moving, but there are some upcoming legacy events that I will actually be able to make it too so I have been testing a bit more lately. I would recommended playing the list below. It is extremely consistent, has decent matchups against most of the top decks. Jund, burn and Lands are the only matchups it really struggles with but there are some SB changes that can help that.
19 Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Baleful Strix
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
That's the 57 cards I am sure about. Its the core of the deck, and you need a very good reason to cut any of those cards. The last 2 cards I am not 100% on yet:
20th Land (Cavern of souls or marsh flats)
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Tasigur/Angler
1 Esper Charm
1 Painful Truths
1 Toxic Deluge
Sideboard:
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Null Rod
1 Council's Judgment
1 Disenchant
2 Flusterstorm
3 Meddling Mage
1 Notion Thief
1 Perish
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Zealous Persecution
Thief, surgical and BEB could also change.
Hi!
Been playing Esper mentor for a long time, and this list has been really strong. As other people has said, Deathrite shaman is just wrong in this shell. It will try to put 1 more Bob into the deck because he´s sick while in play.
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Baleful Strix
3 Dark Confidant
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Brainstorm
2 Lingering Souls
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
Sideboard:
1 Chill
1 Bitterblossom
1 Force of Will
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Meddling Mage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Null Rod
1 Disenchant
1 Notion Thief
1 Tsabo's Web
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Perish
Why Toxic Deluge main? I'm stuck between this and Deathblade and am trying to learn all I can about both decks.
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@mr_alex: Surprised you don't like Deathrite in your deck or this archetype; you run a ton of 3-4 mana spells, especially when you consider Snapcaster in that number. Deathrite helps shore up all sorts of problems with this archetype like mana denial from tempo or GY interaction and faster clock against combo. I think your list will have a few too many hands where you aren't doing anything relevant until turn 3.
Let me explain why deathrite is bad:
- Deathrite is bad in this deck because while it is a very powerful 1 mana card, it is not a very powerful card. This deck can be quickly close games, but it is not a good aggressive deck. It works best by trading 1 for 1 in the early game and then drawing more cards and powering out better cards in the mid/late game. Deathrite does not help this plan.
- Otherwise, this deck does not care about opponent's removal. You never have to cast mentor into removal if you don't want and often even making 1 token before the mentor dies changes the course of the game. Deathrite just makes bolts and plows relevant.
- Deathrite makes the mana base way worse by demanding more black (and adding grean).
- This decks closest comparison is grixis control (not esper stoneblade) a lot of these reasons are the same reason you do not see deathrite in grixis control.
You are right about some lists being a bit overloaded on 3 drops. The deck always has tons of good things to do on turn 1, but this why I really like counterspell and strix over things like lingering souls. Both cards are really good turn 2, but don't get any worse as the game goes on.
For me, deluge might just be a remnant from when young pyromancer was the most played creature in legacy. With goyf and angler rising since dig was banned, it might not be good enough anymore. Its nice that it only costs 3 and can kill most creatures in the format without killing mentor (x=/<2). It is also nice to have a maindeck way to answer goose, mom or TNN.
I always do stuff before turn 3. ponder to get the cards i still need, probe cabal to empty threats, mana open for spell pierce or stp.
So, I've played this deck a few times now and I'm finding that if I don't find a Monastery Mentor, I usually just die (with the rare exception of winning with Jace, The Mind Sculptor). I understand that the point of this deck is to clear a way for Monastery Mentor, followed by getting value out of your cantrips, discard, etc. However, if you don't find a Monastery Mentor you just end up durdling around for a while and then dying.
Do others have this problem, and if so what do you think is the solution. Do we play more threats (Gurmag Angler/Tasigur, the Golden Fang), play more ways of finding a Monastery Mentor, or something else?
For reference here's the list I'm playing:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Baleful Strix
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
3 Painful Truths
2 Spell Pierce
Sideboard:
1 Null Rod
1 Council's Judgment
1 Disenchant
2 Flusterstorm
3 Meddling Mage
1 Notion Thief
1 Pithing Needle
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
Skyout, yeah that happens sometimes to me as well, mostly against delver decks, where we SHOULD have way better draws after you both survive into the late game but sometimes they just get exactly what they need and we draw cantrips into cantrips into lands/discard, etc. I think playing 1-2 Angler/Tasigur is totally fine and is something I go back and forth on. Sorin, Clique, bitterblossoms and even stoneforge are options too that I tried and were not too bad, but I think the delve creatures are probably better.
How have you been liking painful truths? I've been trying it as a 1 of and it has not been too impressive. There have been a few times were the life loss made it uncastable but in grindy games its obviously good. Everytime I drew it, I asked, would this be better if it was a snapcaster? The answer was usually yes. Snapcaster + brainstorm is still one of the best ways to get immediate card advantage in legacy. And strix is still the best card in the deck against delver decks.
Maybe, try cutting 2 pierce for 2 delve creatures and see how it goes.
I sleeved up your deck list. I'll be trying it Wednesday night at LGS.
I didn't mean to underline that statement. Smh
Would not playing Deathrite Shaman make the deck any better or the manabase any more consistent? I'm getting closer to having the deck completed just not sure what version I should go with for my first try.
TheArchitect seems to feel very strongly that the answer is "yes". Team UltraPro and Chapin would say "no". I lean toward "no", but will add the caveat that I haven't played the deck much since early December. I definitely disagree that Deathrite isn't powerful enough, and think that he plays very well with Mentor.
I'm having a very tough time justifying building this deck. Mentor itself looks so fun but I've heard so many people (pros included) say it's just not good. They've given many reasons including a shaky manabase. Would Grixis pyromancer just be a better choice?
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We'll I've been getting my ass kicked my Grixis Pyromancer. They are close games but, I haven't had any success lately. I lost to elves too last night. Games three was my fault though. I kept a hand of STP, FoW, Snapcaster and the rest lands. I REALLY thought I'd draw into gas but didn't and died because of it. I will say I want to play test more without Deathrite, to be fair. I'm definitely going to 19 lands though, I hate having a Mentor in play late game and just top deck land after land.
Any hand with snapcaster, stp and lands is a keep against elves. You are more likely to mull into oblivion than get a better hand. Sometimes variance is just going to happen and you won't draw anything else good.
Grixis pyromancer is about a 50-50 matchup in my experience. It really comes down to who draws more value; snapcaster, kologons command, painful truths, therapy, pyro/mentor, etc. While low powered cards that can be ignored or outclassed are bad: deathrite, Pierce, etc.
I've tested this archetype a lot, in different configurations and found that 19 lands (no utility lands), 12+ cantrips with no Deathrite is very consistent. Sure Deathrite, tropical island or karakas let you do some powerful things, but they are very high variance cards and will cost you games.
If you want a karakas, cavern of souls, tarpit, or wasteland adding it as the 20th land is also not bad, but don't cut to 18 real lands for it.
Yea I played legacy tonight in between standard rounds. 19 lands seems fine. Switched to Tasigur instead of Gurmag and added a Murderous Cut and Unearth. Never saw the Unearth but the Murderous Cut was pretty good as well as Tasigur. His ability didn't come into play but the 1 cmc cheaper than Gurmag did!
Finally got some testing in and WOW am I happy with the changes and tweeks to my build! I am actually able with very little disruption if any at all to outrace infect in certain situations and the manabase seems to be what a huge part of my problem was. Learning how to play deathrite was another part of it (which ties back to manabase due to fetches). Here is my updated list and it seems to be running well and has remained very versatile.
Spells
3x Force of Will
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Cabal Therapy
2x sensei's divining top
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
4x Myth Realized
Creatures
4x Deathrite Shawman
3x Monastary Mentor
2x True-Name Nemisis
Lands
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Marsh Flats
3x Underground Sea
3x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Creeping Tar pit
1x Plains
Sidboard:
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Flusterstorm
1x V. Clique
1x Karakas
3x E. Tutor
1x BitterBlossom
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Force of Will
Flex board slots ( completely dependant on the meta.... usually I like to include humility due to my Myth's and Factories being unaffected. But if Emarkul isn't running around in the meta a lot then there really isn't as much of a need for this card.)
1x Elspeth knight-errant
2x Containment Priest
2x seal of cleansing
1x Chill
1x Humility
1x Rest in Peace
The standstill list looks good. I would be reluctant to go to 3 Force of Will with the influx of chalices in the meta. Based on your sideboard, I would guess lands variants are absent in your meta.
On a different note, has anyone tested against the eldrazi stompy decks yet? My results so far with a list similar to TheArchitect's have been somewhat grim.
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