Miracle Control

[Minniehajj]

Blood Moon on T3 followed up by a Jace or even ETA for 2 on turn 4 is lights out. Though, a Blood Moon on an empty (or 1-creature) board + a removal spell or counterspell (since now they can't use Cavern) will suffice as well. Should give you enough time to dig for your win con.

I will maintain that Blood Moon is great against BUG decks, even if they have 1 or 2 basics. It slows them down enough for us to catch up, and makes casting the spells that really matter against us more difficult.

You're right that it is still great, but I was finding that more and more people are expecting it and not being cold to it because they have a removal spell ready. My aforementioned post had things like kgrip, gcharm, decay, etc and it just almost always traded one for one. It also doesn't effect the board. It's still great, but it's equity is a lot lower if played around. I have the same issue with Rest in Peace in those particular matchups, because, while it's still quite good, it gets removed and you're right back where you started. This is why I've chosen to omit both and play a sideboard more tailored to beating other decks, and relying simply on terminus --> entreat and keeping me alive long enough to get to that point in the game. People are still threatened by blood moon and rest in peace enough to bring in tons of enchantment hate, but I choose to simply not play into them. It's been working exceedingly well so far, and I don't sacrifice percentage points against other decks like the mirror, storm, etc, that are still prominent parts of the metagame. I use terminus --> entreat as my way to play against the hateful decks and do my best to not play into cards that prevent that game plan from being executed in its fullest.

[Whitefaces]

I ran this list at my LGS last night to try out Predict and lower counts of win cons and lands, thoroughly impressed with all three, especially Predict

I beat Elves, Reanimator, UBg Delver and Storm.

4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor

4 Ponder
4 Terminus

4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Counterbalance

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Predict
2 Daze - these were bad, should have been Spell Snare but I don't own any. I wanted to see how it plays in a shell with a lower average CMC ala Claudio Bonnanis GP winning list.
2 Counterspell

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls

SB:
2 Blood Moon
2 Wear//Tear
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Containment Priest

[Minniehajj]

I ran this list at my LGS last night to try out Predict and lower counts of win cons and lands, thoroughly impressed with all three, especially Predict

I beat Elves, Reanimator, UBg Delver and Storm.

4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor

4 Ponder
4 Terminus

4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Counterbalance

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Predict
2 Daze - these were bad, should have been Spell Snare but I don't own any. I wanted to see how it plays in a shell with a lower average CMC ala Claudio Bonnanis GP winning list.
2 Counterspell

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls

SB:
2 Blood Moon
2 Wear//Tear
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Containment Priest

ONE OF US! ONE OF US! =D
How did you like the lower-to-the-ground mentor approach? And what did you play against? Would love more experiences and more data.

[Whitefaces]

ONE OF US! ONE OF US! =D
How did you like the lower-to-the-ground mentor approach? And what did you play against? Would love more experiences and more data.

I really liked it, a lot more than past builds I've played (generally stock with Entreats/Jaces etc). The proactive nature of the deck is certainly a plus in my opinion, Predict powers through the deck so fast you're able to find whatever you need fairly easily. Though the raw power of the cards is lower, pros and cons. This build felt like it punished small mistakes more.

I went into it feeling quite certain 19 lands isn't correct, but wanted to test it out. Thanks to all the cantrips the velocity of the deck made sure land drops weren't a problem. And if you're not hitting land drops you likely have an answer for whatever the opponent is doing at least. Knowing you never 'need' more than 5 or so lands in play is a huge plus and lets you stay loaded with gas when brainstorming and predicting. I do feel like you want three Tundras though, so might replace an Island with one. Or the Cavern could go to the SB, not really sure. Opinions?

R1 vs Elves. G1 I let a Glimpse resolve T2 after he GSZed for an Arbor T1. I had a FoW with a card to pitch and a CB for T2. I figured saving the force for NO, GSZ for 8 or a natural Craterhoof would be fine and CB can lock out the majority of cards he'll draw anyway. This glimpse turned into a second and he drew about 15 or so cards, quite scary! The following turn I force his NO and then am able to Terminus the board of about 15 elves away and lock it up. G2 is slightly less exciting, terminus into multiple counterbalances and a quick Mentor kill with two tops.

R2 vs Reanimator. G1 I get stomped by a Griselbrand followed by an Iona on white. G2 I survive the first few turns and Clique away a decay and play Cont Priest through cavern in resp to Reanimate. G3 I counter everything and kill with a clique. Surgical was clutch here over RiP as he had a T1 Sire of Insanity. I quite like having a hand, thanks!

R3 vs UBg Delver. It wasn't a usual build of BUG Delver, but seems like it had 4x of Bob, TNN, Lili, Hymn, no goyfs. Just splashing green for DRS and a few decays, but I didn't see many of either. G1 a couple of stp and forces allow me to establish a counter lock and mentor ends it quickly. G2 is similar to G1, except a blood moon on turn 5 backed up by Counterspell does it and a couple of snaps clean up.

R4 vs Storm. G1 I draw into lots of swords and terminus after he T1 probe > therapy taking two Counterbalance, yay! G2 he actually has me but messes up and kills himself with AN. Skill G3 I'm able to survive the first few turns by aggressively REBing his cantrips then get two CB down. He decays one and I surgical it, pretty much locking him out of the game. It takes another 10+ turns until I can find a snapcaster, but he gets there. Should have lost this match though really.

[winglerw28]

I've begun testing Minihajj's list as well as my own build. This is what I am currently on:

(Creatures)
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique


(Planeswalkers)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


(Other Spells)
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Spell Snare
2 Predict
3 Ponder
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Terminus


(Lands)
1 Arid Mesa
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
2 Plains
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Scalding Tarn


(Sideboard)
1 Batterskull
1 Mountain
1 Pyroclasm
1 Staticaster
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Wear // Tear
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Surgical Extraction

Aside from my strong tendency towards Legends, I have found that the Predict build is exceptional, going against my intuition. The only concern I have been having is the new Eldrazi deck, which I fully expect will evolve to beat cards like Moat and Blood Moon, as Minihajj has already suggested. I expect that deck to play another color in the near future, even though Mox Diamond is likely the first card to cut (for Spirit Guides or other fast mana) based on what Gerry Thompson said about the deck in one of his recent articles. If it splashes green, it could easily gain access to Krosan Grip and/or Worldbreaker post-board. If they go the white route and play Displacer, it also makes Stoneforge Mystic and Entreat the Angels less reliable, which would cause me to lean towards Mentor again over SfM (which I have been playing due to its strength against the increased number of fair decks in the meta).

[Entreat_the_Beedrills]

Any tips for the Infect MU?

When they go into post-blocks, pre-damage step of combat, they have priority to use pump spells, and if they dont play a spell and give you a chance to swords it and you pass, then the step moves ahead, and they effectively skip their opportunity to pump their creature. Always ask them if they're passing priority to you, and if they do, just pass priority yourself and let it go and take the 1 or 2 poison instead of the 5 or 6. Many infect players do not understand combat steps and priority. If both players pass priority, they can't go back and suddenly say "oh wait, well I wanted to play this." Doing that is against the rules because it allows them to trick you into trying to remove the creature before they use the pump spell. It doesn't work in a way which allows them to do this.

I think you'll find this quite relevant, especially when you're using cards like red blast, swords, terminus, wear/tear, submerge, venser, etc in order to try and deal with their attackers. :P

[Misersoneof]

When they go into post-blocks, pre-damage step of combat, they have priority to use pump spells, and if they dont play a spell and give you a chance to swords it and you pass, then the step moves ahead, and they effectively skip their opportunity to pump their creature. Always ask them if they're passing priority to you, and if they do, just pass priority yourself and let it go and take the 1 or 2 poison instead of the 5 or 6. Many infect players do not understand combat steps and priority. If both players pass priority, they can't go back and suddenly say "oh wait, well I wanted to play this." Doing that is against the rules because it allows them to trick you into trying to remove the creature before they use the pump spell. It doesn't work in a way which allows them to do this.

I think you'll find this quite relevant, especially when you're using cards like red blast, swords, terminus, wear/tear, submerge, venser, etc in order to try and deal with their attackers. :P

Not trying to be a jerk but this advice seems a little redundant. You seem like you are trying to get them to inadvertently pass up their opportunity to pump or something.

[Entreat_the_Beedrills]

Not trying to be a jerk but this advice seems a little redundant. You seem like you are trying to get them to inadvertently pass up their opportunity to pump or something.

Players often play very casually and respond to attacks with "I'll swords your creature." If you understand priority, then you understand that it's your opponent's obligation to choose to pump or potentially hold their peace for a turn. This lets you 2 for 1 them, which is how the game is supposed to be played. I know a lot of players may already know this, but some don't. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I have beaten infect many times by slowing them down and maximizing value in this exact way.

My stance is that this is a right of the defending player which is not often exercised or understood very well. Infect players are taking a big risk casting pump spells when you can play removal on their creatures while they're on the stack. I am making an antithetical point to your statement: Infect players often rely on people's lack of understanding of priority in the combat blockers and damage steps in order to win games, i.e. No disrespect to infect players, of course. The entire point is to get them to tell you when they're passing priority. If they pass priority and you're okay with taking 1 or 2 infect, then you can pass priority too and play the "pump/removal" game next turn. If you have any thoughts, I'd love to hear them.

[CutthroatCasual]

I think I get what he's trying to say:

When they attack, after you declare no blockers, if they don't immediately declare effects before damage then they have missed their opportunity to do so. Basically, what we should be doing after saying, "No blocks," is asking, "Effects before damage?" to see if they have any.

[kOny]

Hi, i'm new here and in 1st place i want to thank u all for the feedback & data on this awesome deck.

In few weaks we get a local tournament where i want to brew Miracles ( i always run D&T, and ppl get over prepared for this :'( )
The meta will be something like : reanimator / sneak & show / ANT / Bug delver & shardless / 2-3 burns / elves / painter & random stuff.
No one will play somekind of lands or 12post (good for me) & eldrazi deck.

I perfectly know the BUGs players & they will never expect me on miracles + they play alot around D&T.
So i think, i can ship this.

Here is the list that i want to play, any Suggestions ?


1 Mountain
1 Volcanic Island
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Scalding Tarn

2 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
1 Entreat the Angels
3 Ponder
4 Terminus

SB: 1 Hydroblast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Wear / Tear
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast

Thx

[matunos]

If you really want to tilt them, if they haven't activated their Inkmoth and they say something like "move to combat" and you say okay, it's too late for them to activate their Inkmoth.

[Misersoneof]

Players often play very casually and respond to attacks with "I'll swords your creature." If you understand priority, then you understand that it's your opponent's obligation to choose to pump or potentially hold their peace for a turn. This lets you 2 for 1 them, which is how the game is supposed to be played. I know a lot of players may already know this, but some don't. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I have beaten infect many times by slowing them down and maximizing value in this exact way.

My stance is that this is a right of the defending player which is not often exercised or understood very well. Infect players are taking a big risk casting pump spells when you can play removal on their creatures while they're on the stack. I am making an antithetical point to your statement: Infect players often rely on people's lack of understanding of priority in the combat blockers and damage steps in order to win games, i.e. No disrespect to infect players, of course. The entire point is to get them to tell you when they're passing priority. If they pass priority and you're okay with taking 1 or 2 infect, then you can pass priority too and play the "pump/removal" game next turn. If you have any thoughts, I'd love to hear them.

I see what you're saying here. I guess I've been so used to knowing how priority works that it seemed not worth saying. You are correct tho.

[oarsman]

If you really want to tilt them, if they haven't activated their Inkmoth and they say something like "move to combat" and you say okay, it's too late for them to activate their Inkmoth.

It can easily be argued the player was asking to enter the Beginning of Combat step, wherein you are allowed to animate. After that comes Declare Attackers. I have seen judge calls on this several times and this is usually the result.

[ozimek]

Hi, i'm new here and in 1st place i want to thank u all for the feedback & data on this awesome deck.

In few weaks we get a local tournament where i want to brew Miracles ( i always run D&T, and ppl get over prepared for this :'( )
The meta will be something like : reanimator / sneak & show / ANT / Bug delver & shardless / 2-3 burns / elves / painter & random stuff.
No one will play somekind of lands or 12post (good for me) & eldrazi deck.

...

Here is the list that i want to play, any Suggestions ?

...

SB: 1 Hydroblast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Wear / Tear
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast

Thx

For that particular meta, Containment Priest seems pretty solid in the board. Great vs.: reanimator / sneak & show / elves. Would probably cut a blue blast for it. When I started playing Miracles, I also played a Blue blast or two in the board, but CB is typically great in the MU's (burn) where you want it, and CMC1 (i.e. opposing red blast) is the easiest to defend CB from. Are you having problems with Burn?
Pithing Needle should also be considered vs. Grindstone and Sneak Attack, and possibly "random stuff".

[kOny]

U right,
I ll cut hydroblast for c priest. Sounds great.
I'm not really affraid about burn match ups. But like i'm sure that will be the most playde deck.
Thats the reason for 2 beb. 1 should be fine.

Thx

[klaus]

Just chiming in to spark a little discussion about whether this guy:

...could potentially replace Mentor.

Pros:
* TITI is bigger (also big butt from the start = better blocker + Bolt/Lavamancer/Massacre/etc.-proof)
* cheaper
* has a built-in "Evacuate", which is golden for us
* plays neatly among our infinite cantrips
* SCM delivers extra spells, plus being bounced actually is benefitial (same goes for Clique)
* CB serves as a powerful protection
* adding TITI makes us less reliant on Terminus. Hell, we'd easily be able to go down to 3 MD.
* better against creature-based strategies than MM
* oh and did I mention he's ? :-)

Cons:
* Blastable
* generates no little army (though 1/1ers have their own list of Cons, think "E. Plague" etc.)
* CMC3 is actually nice for the CB curve
* worse in the mirror and many non-creature-based strategies than MM

I mean just picture this scenario: play TITI early on --> durdle a little, while blocking dudes like a champ --> flip him eot --> bounce your opponent's critters (and your SCM ftw) --> smash face --> repeat.

Edit: If you feel inclined to dissect its potential beyond Miracles, feel free to discuss away here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...388#post937388

[Minniehajj]

Just chiming in to spark a little discussion about whether this guy:
TITYz

The issues I have with this card are
a) it's blastable
b) it's slow
c) it's really bad in the face of terminus, but so is mentor
d) it's really slow

I haven't tested it but while I like the idea behind the card, I don't know how it'll replace anything in current miracles builds

[Poron]

it has to be tested.

with all the red in the next meta, Mentor might go to 4 back with Dazes.

Also StP kills it as well as Blast. It is an awful card for the mirror and Miracle is going to ne dominant again in next meta.

Very interesting card anyway for sure

[prepare4robots]

Just chiming in to spark a little discussion about whether this guy:

...could potentially replace Mentor.

Pros:
* TITI is bigger (also big butt from the start = better blocker + Bolt/Lavamancer/Massacre/etc.-proof)
* cheaper
* has a built-in "Evacuate", which is golden for us
* plays neatly among our infinite cantrips
* SCM delivers extra spells, plus being bounced actually is benefitial (same goes for Clique)
* CB serves as a powerful protection
* adding TITI makes us less reliant on Terminus. Hell, we'd easily be able to go down to 3 MD.
* better against creature-based strategies than MM
* oh and did I mention he's ? :-)

Cons:
* Blastable
* generates no little army (though 1/1ers have their own list of Cons, think "E. Plague" etc.)
* CMC3 is actually nice for the CB curve
* worse in the mirror and many non-creature-based strategies than MM

I mean just picture this scenario: play TITI early on --> durdle a little, while blocking dudes like a champ --> flip him eot --> bounce your opponent's critters (and your SCM ftw) --> smash face --> repeat.

Edit: If you feel inclined to dissect its potential beyond Miracles, feel free to discuss away here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...388#post937388

To add to the other comments on this, one of the big pros of Mentor / Entreat is that they get around Abrupt Decay by generating tokens. Not only does this die to Swords and Blast, but also Decay... Interesting card though.

[cdnza]

Hey, does anyone have a link to a more up-to-date matchup guide for Miracles? I've dug around a little on other sites but can't find anything from after the DtT banning.