Hi guys, thanks so much for sharing your insights. I'm learning and still need to learn a lot so all your tips and comments are more than welcome. I was a little bit afraid tbat this thread was dying but it's good to see the life back in it :) I understand that my best bet is to just proxy the deck and play it and see what I do and learn from it, but I like theorising and soaking in knowledge before I have more time to do said playing. Sorry if I bore you.
From your comments I get that this deck is basically a slower combo deck than storm that can suddenly fire its combo once you acquire its pieces. You keep throwing stuff in their way that's either a faster route to winning so they have to deal with it or it lets you win (e.g. welder) or prevents them from winning (e.g. ensnaring bridge) so you have more time to set up your combo. And Tezz 2.0 is an alternate wincon against Emrakul and artifact/gy hate.
Should you play the combo asap or hold out until the turn before you think you'd die? Or is that dependent on your opponent, e.g. elves/infect win asap, control win when you think you can? I like playing control and combo, so that only makes this deck more interesting to me.
Question about pyro/REB: I thought from reading up about legacy and reb/pyro that reb was considered superior. Is pyro actually better in this deck?
If relying on welder is flimsy, does this mean that you intuition for your combopieces only if welder is active, and otherwise intuition for 3 of the same card to get 1 of a combo piece? And does this also mean that relying on welder and intuition to get a silver bullet like ensnaring bridge is also flimsy? Then I guess the TA's help finding it. Or is the point just to add another card that you could draw that helps extra in certain matchups?Originally Posted by deadlock
Same for me! I think any blue control player at heart loves misdirection. Against shardless: missdirect that AB or hymn, or even ancestral visions! Priceless.. it's sad if there are better options, but there have almost always been even back when I played more Magic :(
Play the deck, talking about it will not give you the same level of perspective or experience about what is good, what is not, what is important and what is not.
Painter is not really a slow combo deck. It can theoretically kill on turn one but with several combinations of opening hands it can kill on turn two. How many LED's you run main deck will change the level of explosiveness.
When and how you combo depends on a lot of different board states and matchups too, so breaking down those game states can be exhausting.
Tezz or any other planewalkers should fill multiple roles if you are to slot it in this deck. They should net you advantage and provide an alternate win condition that synergies with the core strategies. I think Tezz 2.0 does this well, but it make the mana kind of weird at times IMHO. Also Bridge is the alternate win con against Emerakul. And this is more of a fast combo/midrange deck then its a control deck
Pyroblast is in general better if you have bridge. Red Elemental Blast is better in general if you don't. Take that with a grain of salt because their are reasons why one is better then another. Pyroblast can be diverted or misdirected to anything which can create some nitch interactions which is also true for REB but can only hit stuff that is blue so sometimes it can't be moved to a spellskite. They are both modal so there is a lot of little strange things with that too.
About Welder. He augments the deck in a powerful way but is not something you can always depend on. If you have a clear path to intuition for the win on the next turn you should do that, but you should wait to cast the card in general until you have a clear plan on what you are trying to achieve with your board state. Intuiton is one of the hard skill testing cards in legacy and depending on how your deck is constructed (the whole 75) determines a lot of what you are asking.
TA and intuition fulfills different roles to some extent. TA is only really to combo or protect with bridge or spellskite. Intuition is basically a tutor for a win or any series of piles in your deck which can grind value, or protect you, or shut a game out with blood moon after board, or that blue guy who bounce creatures, or find extra land, or even a pile of blasts to get rid of a problematic permanents. Or anything thing you can imagine I would max out on intuition before I added TA. I do like TA a lot though.
![[SLAYER]chaos's Avatar](image.php?u=10002&dateline=1238458095 "[SLAYER]chaos's Avatar")
![Send a message via AIM to [SLAYER]chaos](images/misc/im_aim.gif)
![Send a message via MSN to [SLAYER]chaos](images/misc/im_msn.gif)
Painter is my very first competitive deck when I was getting into Legacy 6-7 years ago and I'm super excited to build this and try it out.
So I picked up the deck last night to test some technology in a local tournament. On a positive note, I can not lose to UW.
The only match I lost was to Elves: He won the dice roll and comboed out turn two while I had my combo in hand.
Same thing happened again G2, only this time I went turn 1 artifact land -> grind stone -> Opal,
Turn two Painter -> hold REB in hand. Seems perfect, right?! He then cast two Natural order to end me.
The problem with the Elf match is I haven't figured out how to silver-bullet them. Whatever avenue I shut down with an artifact, they just choose another.
You get bridge -> they blow it up,
you jump through hoops for relic -> they agro/glimpse you out and your welders are shut down
you jump through hoops for Cursed totem -> they'll just tutor blow it, or they agro/glimpse you out and your welders are shut down
Any ideas boys?
Maybe a 1of Engineered Plague? Crushes elves, comes in against Merfolk+Goblins+D&T, and it's hilarious to name Human against UW.
-Seems jank and there's no way to tutor it. Also relies a lot on black. Still dies to Abrupt Decay and Grip.
Maybe a 1of Torper Orb?
--Just ... bad
I was thinking I should test cutting some cards from my side for 2-3 Lion's Eye in the 75. Maybe the answer is to just be faster against a lot of decks?
--- 1 seems like plenty
Maybe side a tundra and some cannonists? It does hit all the decks that are faster than me without having to use Lion's eye. Also, boarding in a tundra doesn't seem bad against tempo.
---- Waste of space, probably. Natural order/GSZ will still be a beating.
I am open to suggestions.
Team Awesome: Busting Toilets since 2009
Meth!
I have had a lot of luck in the matchup with sulfur elemental, surprising naming white with Painter is a combo, besides it working really well against death and taxes
I used to board them and they were amazing. I cut them after Dack clinched my D&T match, but they were always awesome! IDK about a 2 card (anti-welder) combo against a deck as fast as Elves, but I guess if you don't have that you'll have other good stuff. Thank you for the suggestion and reminding me.
How is Sulfur against Monastery Mentor? is it worth bringing in, or is it just another thing to get eaten by terminous?
Team Awesome: Busting Toilets since 2009
Meth!
Well if they are terminous-ing(?) they are losing Mentor as well otherwise its really good against mentor.
I'm not sure your ever going to lock down the elves matchup without really distorting what this deck does. To me is always feels a little slow in that matchup unless you get the nut hand and mill them on turn two or they stumble and you get them. To me I really like cards that do double duty in matchups and Sulfer kind of fits that bill but he can be a turn or two slow at times
I have been thinking about this deck a lot again. It does seem not terribly positioned, but to my mind the biggest issue is finding a way to interact with miracles, as they do have enough removal to make our welder/painter not good, and the back up plan of wurmcoil iffy. It seems to me that the best cards against that deck are probably planewalkers?
Should we be taking a plan from Imperial Painters playbook and jamming multiple Koths postboard? What about the black splash for Tezzeret, is that better? Also, should we be sideboarding hate for Mentors/tokens? Sulfur Elemental is the discussion above, but there is also (again with black splash) the option of illness in the ranks for tokens, or engineered plagues.
I think vs various Delver decks we are actually pretty well situated since Wurmcoil still feels very powerful in those MUs and white is not being played a ton in current lists.
Against storm I have always felt pretty good with Forces/Rebs and Flusters.
Sneak and Show is back to being the only SnT deck for the most part and ensnaring bridge helps to make that a pretty reasonable MU. Anyone else have thoughts?
@turingTested on twitter
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
これは水である。
Welder is always good, because it is a must kill for 1 mana. While they gain more from delaying the game, we have mana acceleration to pump out stuff faster. black Tezz is the best PW for this deck if you run black. I also finished Miracles players with the oldschool Tezz ulti, but only after grinding down their hand.
Wurmcoil seems fine, but I think Batterskull is stronger for a couple of reasons. Its cheaper, it cannot be extracted by DRS and it can be recurred, so Terminus / STP just delays it. For both Skull and Wurm the Grim Monolith / Transmute artifact interaction has to be considered. In general I wouldn't advise to run Grim Monolith though.
On the Miracle matchup in general. First you have to decide on your strategy. Burst through with a fast combo attempt -> all-in approach or grind them down and out-control them (this is an atypical approach, but combo-control builds can pull it off). Ur Painter dominated with Mental Misstep, because it made the first route so hard to stop.
BBB
I feel like trying to just bust through typically is better, we have a bunch of counters to get our welder in under their CB and once that is in play it does work. Also, spellskite has always been good for me, it means that we mostly only care about terminus which we can use forces and flusters to keep from resolving.
Is there anything to playing swan song over fluster for the matchup with miracles since it is a hard counter?
@turingTested on twitter
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
これは水である。
I don't like Tezzeret versus Miracle post sb because we can't protect it. Unlike UB Tezz, we don't have Chalice to counter opposing Rebs, and this is not mentioning Mentor. I found this route quite difficult to follow. (I'm talking about 3 reb 3 snap lists, which are most common in europe).Taping out for Tezz also makes us vulnerable to CB.I also finished Miracles players with the oldschool Tezz ulti, but only after grinding down their hand.
What is your plan for that match up? I really don't remember this matchup being all the terrible, but that might have been due to less competent pilots of Miracles.
@turingTested on twitter
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
これは水である。
Tezz has a much easier matchup vs miracles than painter. Chalice, thopter / sword and tezz himself are incredibly hard for miracles to deal with.
Removal + counter spells / counterbalance against a linear combo (painter) will always be pretty tough to fight through.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I wish we had access to some more durable threats, I was thinking about Ghirapur Aether Grid, but I am worried that is too slow, but something that is immune to 1) Pyroblast and 2) creature kill seems very strong. I like the idea of Koth, but it would take a massive restructuring of the Mana base. I also was thinking about New-est Chandra, just because it is relatively hard to deal with, and 6 mana is very doable in this deck.
@turingTested on twitter
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
これは水である。
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/387105#online
Did anyone see the above? Apparently UR painter (similar to Caleb Durward's old builds) top 4d the Legacy challenge last weekend online. Seems well positioned against Eldrazi, and Lands. Also, according to some folks I trust the miracles matchup isn't as bad as initially thought. I like the idea of trying to be as fast as possible in the current meta.
@turingTested on twitter
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
これは水である。
The only problem I see with the list you linked is the weakness to Chalice=1. I would try to fit a couple Transmute Artifacts in the 75 as a way around this. Maybe instead of the Trinket Mage. This way you can also Transmute for Bridge (and Painter) if you need to.
I didn't think that list was necessarily the best list at the moment, just wanted to point out that the idea seems to be viable atm. I think our older lists are probably still better/more tweaked. I didn't like that mix of mana sources, and I still think we need a real back up plan, whether that be wurmcoil transmutes or planeswalker or something new, but I do think this is proof that it is a deck worth talking about.
I was dabbling with splashing black for strix/TezzAoB, but the old lists might be the best bet. In my experience it is VERY hard to beat current 4c delver iterations with the old version though.
@turingTested on twitter
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
これは水である。
Went 4-1 in an MTGO League with the following list:
Mainboard
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Force of Will
3x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Spell Pierce
2x Transmute Artifact
4x Painter's Servant
4x Grindstone
4x Goblin Welder
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
3x Mox Opal
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Flooded Strand
2x Volcanic Island
2x Tundra
1x Island
1x Mountain
4x Seat of the Synod
2x Ancient Tomb
Sideboard
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Monastery Mentor
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Blood Moon
2x Ingot Chewer
1x Ancient Grudge
1-2 vs. Reanimator
2-0 vs. Miracles
2-0 vs. Eldrazi
2-0 vs. Shardless BUG
2-0 vs. Cabal Ritual Storm (I dislike the name 'Ad Nauseam Tendrils')
6-2 in games with traditional plan
3-0 in games with Monastery Mentor/Stoneforge Mystic
Round 1 - Reanimator
Game 1
My opponent starts by casting Careful Study, discarding an Iona and Inkwell Leviathan and I respond with a Top. I hold up Force of Will and set up a turn 3 Transmute Artifact for Relic of Progenitus and Pyroblast cantrips. I combo on turn 5. (Turn 5 win on the draw)
Game 2
I mulligan to 5 and cast Force of Will on a turn 1 Reanimate for Griselbrand (my hand is now Tundra, Goblin Welder, Goblin Welder). My opponent has the second Reanimate and I concede. (Turn 2 Loss on the draw)
Game 3
I lead with Top and my opponent starts with a Ponder. On turn 2 I cast Brainstorm and my opponent Exhumes a Griselbrand into play. (Turn 2 Loss on the play)
Round 2 - Miracles
Game 1
My opponent mulligans to 5 and plays a Flooded Strand. I decide to hold up Spell Pierce/Red Elemental Blast instead of casting Ponder. I Spell Pierce a Top on their turn and play my second land, a Lion's Eye Diamond, a Mox Opal, a Painter's Servant, and a Grindstone, leading to a concession. (Turn 2 Win on the draw)
Game 2 (Transform to Mentor/Stoneforge plan)
My opponent mulligans to 6. I keep a hand with Force of Will, Ponder, Top, and lands. I lead with a Top and Force of Will my opponent's Top. We both do nothing for a few turns, but with Top in play I am able to find and cast a Turn 4 Stoneforge Mystic finding a Batterskull. I Force of Will a Mentor and Pyroblast their Force of Will. My opponent is left with 1 card and I have none but a Batterskull in play. Top ensures my topdecks are stronger. (Turn 8 Win on the draw)
Round 3 - Eldrazi
Game 1
I lead with a turn 1 Goblin Welder. My opponent plays an Ancient Tomb and passes. I Ponder and play a Grindstone. My opponent plays a few eldrazi while I set up a Transmute Artifact on a Relic of Progenitus. This is a turn slower but allows me to play around Dismember with a Red Elemental Blast in hand. (Turn 5 Win on the draw)
Game 2 (Transform to Mentor/Stoneforge plan)
I mulligan to 6, keeping a hand with Stoneforge, Blood Moon, Batterskull, and Spell Pierce, and my opponent starts with a Leyline of the Void + Eldrazi Temple. Turn 3 shows an Eldrazi Displacer facing off against a Stoneforge Mystic. I Ponder for a third land drop and miss. My opponent plays a 3/3 Endless One and begins attacking. I topdeck a land and play a Goblin Welder and Batterskull. My opponent plays a Thought-Knot Seer and is forced to take Blood Moon. Jitte+Batterskull eventually win. (Turn 9 Win on the draw)
Round 4 - Shardless BUG
Game 1
I keep a hand of 2 Brainstorm, 1 Ponder, 2 Pyroblast, 1 Spell Pierce, and a Seat of the Synod. I start with a Ponder into more lands and my opponent suspends Ancestral Vision on turn 1. I pyroblast a Brainstorm and my opponent plays a Deathrite Shaman. I brainstorm into more counterspells and pyroblast Ancestral Vision. Eventually I find a Painter's Servant. My opponent plays a turn 8 Toxic Deluge, leading to an empty board and no cards in hand for either of us. However, Top allows me to reassemble my combo quickly, winning before the second Ancestral Vision can be cast (Turn 10 Win on the play).
Game 2 (Transform to Mentor/Stoneforge plan)
I keep a hand of Ponder, Jitte, Relic, and Ancient Grudge. Hymn takes Jitte and a land. We trade cantrips and I Ancient Grudge a Null Rod. My opponent casts a Turn 4 Shardless Agent into a Deathrite Shaman, while my hand is Spell Pierce + 2 lands. I topdeck a Monastery Mentor, and the next turn, cast it along with Brainstorm into Top, passing the turn with 3 tokens. My opponent casts Maelstrom Pulse on my Mentor but I have found 2 Tops and win 2 turns later with gigantic tokens. (Turn 7 Win on the draw)
Round 5 - Cabal Ritual Storm
Game 1
I lead with turn 1 Goblin Welder with Pyroblast and Transmute Artifact in hand. My opponent casts Gitaxian Probe and discards Transmute Artifact. I topdeck a Relic of Progenitus and Pyroblast a Brainstorm. My opponent casts a turn 3 Empty the Warrens for 10 goblins (cannot go for Past in Flames due to Relic). I topdeck a Top and Transmute it for a Painter's Servant and fail to pay. I weld in the Painter's Servant, blocking a goblin, and take 9 damage, going to 9. I find a Grindstone and block a goblin, going to 1. (Turn 6 win on the play)
Game 2
I keep a hand with a Goblin Welder, Grindstone, Painter's Servant, Top, and lands. My opponent plays a Ponder and I topdeck a Relic of Progenitus. My opponent discards a Painter's Servant. I topdeck a Mox Opal and play Goblin Welder and Relic of Progenitus, forcing my opponent to attempt to win this turn. My opponent plays a Lion's Eye Diamond and a Cabal Ritual; in response activating the Lion's Eye Diamond, discarding a Past in Flames. I decide not to activate Relic in response as they have 1 blue mana, 1 Ponder in the graveyard and 6 non-blue mana. They must find exactly Ad Nauseam to have a chance to win. I take the risk (I would exile my own Painter's Servant if I activated Relic) and am rewarded. (Turn 3 win on the draw)
Notes
-Relic of Progenitus overperformed, letting me steal a game against Reanimator, 2 games against Storm, and severely hindering an opponent's Deathrite Shaman.
-Sensei's Divining Top won every game that lasted more than 4 turns and some of the fast games as well.
-Transmute Artifact has felt stronger than Intuition.
-This deck is a very strong Monastery Mentor deck with Mox Opals and a playset of Sensei's Divining Tops.
-I have tried the Monastery Mentor sideboard in Doomsday, Tin Fins, and Painter's Servant. This deck trades the nice synergy with Cabal Therapy with the ability to defend Mentor with counterspells.
Oh man the mentor sideboard seems sweet, nice idea!
You said you felt like intuition felt less awesome than transmute, did that make welder seem less good? I feel like most of welder's power comes from making intuition into an I win card with an artifact in play? Also, since you aren't running Wurmcoils to go with Transmute, I can understand not wanting as much mana, but are you no longer interested in Grim Monolith at all, or at the least more copies of LED, I feel like those really increase your chances of winning faster, but I can see with ponder that you might not be as interested in winning quickly as much of the time.
Either way, nice result, I think this is a cool version of the list, and wish you good luck on the development.
Additional question:
Do you think Mentor helps the Delver MU, thinking about it and it seems reasonable, that is always my worst MU (especially in the form of 4c Delver).
@turingTested on twitter
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
これは水である。
Thanks for the feedback!
I think Welder is still very strong even with Transmute Artifact instead of Intuition. The advantages and disadvantages of Transmute Artifact to Intuition are (in my opinion):
Advantage:
-Gets around Chalice at 1 (Intuition needs a Welder in play)
-Is faster and is less susceptible to taxing counters
-More efficient (saves 1-2 mana)
-Better without Welder
-Can tutor up Relic of Progenitus/Lion's Eye Diamond as a 1-of in the deck
Disadvantage:
-Card Disadvantage
-Not as strong with Welder
-Double blue requirement
This is definitely a more controlling build of Painter, which fits well with the Mentor sideboard plan, so I am less interested in fast mana like Grim Monolith and Lion's Eye Diamond. Stoneforge Mystics and Monastery Mentors fill the role Wurmcoil Engine used to while being much more resilient. The deck can still combo on turn 3-4 with consistency; many of the longer non-Mentor games were due to prioritizing interaction with the opponent rather than going for the combo.
Monastery Mentor is great against Delver! Their only evasive threat is countered by the 5 red elemental blast/pyroblasts and Mentor matches up well against their other threats. Batterskull helps stabilize the board very well.
I will probably replace Relic of Progenitus with a Nihil Spellbomb as there were many times I wanted to recur it (unlike Nihil Spellbomb, Relic is exiled when used).
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote
