Miracle Control

[KingOfThePanda]

So quick question: Since Venser says, "Spell," does that mean that I can EoT Brainstorm, in response flash in Venser and bounce Brainstorm and resolve Brainstorm with my Brainstorm still in hand?

[CutthroatCasual]

Does a spell not on the stack still resolve?

[KingOfThePanda]

Well I figure it's like the "MST negates" thing for Yugioh, so I am assuming so. However, I want to make sure it's definitely the same for Magic. I've never come across the situation in this game, so I don't wan to make myself look like an idiot again.

[CutthroatCasual]

Well for starters, this is Magic, not YGO. Why even have that ability on Venser if it doesn't work the way you want it to: being able to "counter" an uncounterable spell by bouncing it back to your opponent's hand?

[KingOfThePanda]

If it was Yugioh, I wouldn't have asked. So I'm just going to assume it works unless someone says otherwise.

[Quasim0ff]

I'm pretty sure my first reply told you otherwise.

Maybe you should relearn the basics of MTG before taking the $3000 plunge into Legacy.

*King; A spell doesn't resolve untill it leaves the stack successfully. It doesn't, if it gets returned to your hand.

Why not just tell him "No, A spell doesn't resolve unless it leaves the stack succesfully" instead of all the sarcastically stuff you've been writing.

It's perfectly reasonable to want to play legacy over say, standard. Legacy caters to a more mature crowd, due to the age of its players. What of King is 25 year, with friends who play legacy? Why shouldn't he want to play whatever he prefers?

[Whitefaces]

*King; A spell doesn't resolve until it leaves the stack successfully. It doesn't, if it gets returned to your hand.

Why not just tell him "No, A spell doesn't resolve unless it leaves the stack succesfully" instead of all the sarcastically stuff you've been writing.

It's perfectly reasonable to want to play legacy over say, standard. Legacy caters to a more mature crowd, due to the age of its players. What of King is 25 year, with friends who play legacy? Why shouldn't he want to play whatever he prefers?

This. Just answer the question without being sarcastic or ignore it! If you don't ask you won't know, you're doing nothing positive for this thread and just catering for the bad reputation it already has.

King, feel free to ask any more questions. The rest of us are happy to answer.

[MiraclesWizard]

so quick question: Since venser says, "spell," does that mean that i can eot brainstorm, in response flash in venser and bounce brainstorm and resolve brainstorm with my brainstorm still in hand?

no, no, no, no!

[Minniehajj]

So...many...things I want to say. But simply put, we can do without the hostility here on this forum. People are right, this used to be THE place to come for Miracles knowledge, both for those experienced with the format and deck, as well those still learning. We are here to spread knowledge and answer questions, not to berate those who ask them.

I don't post on here often anymore, because the environment has become so hostile, but how best do we fix this if those who help discussion don't appear?

That being said, please feel free to ask any and all questions, and also utilize the search forum feature on the site if you believe your question to have a common answer. If you have questions regarding the deck, please feel free to PM me personally as well, I'd be happy to answer them.

We are now just over a month from the Legacy GP season, minus the Japanese one, and my friends and I are working diligently on preparing for it. We have, for the time being, dismissed Nahiri as being something "cute" and not really wanting to pair it with clunky cards like Emrakul to fit into our deck. Clunky cards just don't fit into the Predictable idealogy, so we've let it go for now. Perhaps Nahiri will find a home, but not in a deck designed to be as streamlined as possible. If there are people still willing to test her and give us feedback, please let us know!

In the meantime, this is what a few of us are testing with for the time being:

4 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Predict
1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage
SB: 1 Predict
SB: 1 Monastery Mentor
SB: 1 Flex Slot

A few key things: 3 CB's because CB is the worst it's ever been, since the inception of the deck. 3 CS to compensate for that while also being good in matchups that CB doesn't do anything in. Maindeck EE has been stellar, as many others here have attempted to figure out ways to battle the chalice menace. EE is the least clunky way of doing so, at least MD.

You'll notice the 4th Snapcaster mage and the third predict in the sideboard. These come in like 90% of the time, since post board, our deck's configurations are a lot less clunky than preboard. We usually take out either force, cb, or terminus and add in more spells, thus allowing us to leverage the power of predict and Snapcaster mage much further. Finally, the 3rd Monastery Mentor appears when we just want to end the game immediately, vs lots of fringe decks that we normally have poor matchups against, like goblins, 12 post, manaless dredge, et al.

We're still cleaning up a lot of this, as some cards are underperforming while others are overperforming, and doing our best to clean things up in time for the GP.

One last note: the last sideboard card is completely uncertain. We want to have a card that does well against matchups where cb is at its absolute worst: Maverick, Jund, 4c Loam, and Eldrazi. You'll notice that the card that lines up the easiest vs these matchups is, well, Blood Moon but since blood moon is now expected and can be played around. If you want to know my personal issues with blood moon, please read the following: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post938512. That being said, I actually think Blood Moon is the best fit here, but AnziD disagrees with me in that Blood Moon isn't a death knell anymore, but I literally cannot think of anything else.

Please feel free to ask any questions in regards to this list, I'd be happy to answer those asked in a constructive manner :D

If you want to see the list in action (and listen to some sick beats), check out AnziD's last two streams (no commentary)
https://www.twitch.tv/anzi104/v/65524844 and https://www.twitch.tv/anzi104/v/65715254

Thanks, and best of luck testing for the Legacy GP!

[alphastryk]

Minniehajj, thanks for getting the thread back on track.

I definitely agree that maindeck EE is the best way to handle chalice, as it take the catch-all slot of Councils Judgment while being a fast enough answer for Chalice.

I feel like I may have missed something, but what is the reasoning to go back to Mentor instead of Entreat?

For that last slot, I agree that Blood Moon is not great anymore, but I don't know what the right answer is.

Are you concerned at all about not having Clique, Meddling Mage, etc. vs fast combo, or is the theory that all the countermagic makes up for that?

[Minniehajj]

Minniehajj, thanks for getting the thread back on track.

I definitely agree that maindeck EE is the best way to handle chalice, as it take the catch-all slot of Councils Judgment while being a fast enough answer for Chalice.

I feel like I may have missed something, but what is the reasoning to go back to Mentor instead of Entreat?

For that last slot, I agree that Blood Moon is not great anymore, but I don't know what the right answer is.

Are you concerned at all about not having Clique, Meddling Mage, etc. vs fast combo, or is the theory that all the countermagic makes up for that?

Great questions!
Firstly, the reason for going back to mentor is because we wanted to play basic mountain, and ETA absolutely requires 2 plains in order to operate. An ideal world would allow us to play ETA as the most robust win condition while also allowing us to play basic mountain to facilitate having 4 blasts to bring in vs shardless bug and just generally having a nonwaste-able red source, but this is not an ideal world. So, in short, Mentor is played as the win con when we aren't playing the second basic plains. Mainly manabase considerations. The list also is on 20 lands FWIW.
Secondly yeah, it's really hard to say what that last slot needs to be.
Thirdly, the idea is that with all this countermagic, we just speed through the deck with predict and have enough countermagic to overload our opponents easily. Even countering cantrips because we can just blitz through everything while trading with them and also putting a clock on them in the form of mentor, etc. It's not an ideal thing to be doing, and especially not all that viable if Sneak and Show makes a resurgence (featuring Boseiju, in particular) but for now, where the metagame is at at the moment, it should work out decently. We could explore a space where VClique and Meddling Mage come back into play, but with this configuration, we wouldn't bring in Clique in the mirror, and that just feels really absurd. So for now, we're exploring this, without any "disruption on a stick" creatures and just working with a large abundance of counterspells.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

Casual has a point. This thread is Not the place for rulings questions or beginners trying to learn the game. Before you come to this thread you have to know such simple things as how the stack works. If you don't know such things you can google them. If you have more specific questions you can ask them in the MtgSalvation rulings page where answers are given within the hour you ask them. This question does not even warrant a post in the MtGS rulings page. It warrants a google search of "how does the stack work mtg".

Point or not, the hostility was totally uncalled for and unacceptable. Also, I don't like the idea that a person interested in Legacy should have to go to Google instead of coming here to get information about it, even if it's just simple rulings. -zilla

[Echinoderm]

So...many...things I want to say. But simply put, we can do without the hostility here on this forum. People are right, this used to be THE place to come for Miracles knowledge, both for those experienced with the format and deck, as well those still learning. We are here to spread knowledge and answer questions, not to berate those who ask them.

I don't post on here often anymore, because the environment has become so hostile, but how best do we fix this if those who help discussion don't appear?

That being said, please feel free to ask any and all questions, and also utilize the search forum feature on the site if you believe your question to have a common answer. If you have questions regarding the deck, please feel free to PM me personally as well, I'd be happy to answer them.

We are now just over a month from the Legacy GP season, minus the Japanese one, and my friends and I are working diligently on preparing for it. We have, for the time being, dismissed Nahiri as being something "cute" and not really wanting to pair it with clunky cards like Emrakul to fit into our deck. Clunky cards just don't fit into the Predictable idealogy, so we've let it go for now. Perhaps Nahiri will find a home, but not in a deck designed to be as streamlined as possible. If there are people still willing to test her and give us feedback, please let us know!

In the meantime, this is what a few of us are testing with for the time being:

4 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Predict
1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage
SB: 1 Predict
SB: 1 Monastery Mentor
SB: 1 Flex Slot

A few key things: 3 CB's because CB is the worst it's ever been, since the inception of the deck. 3 CS to compensate for that while also being good in matchups that CB doesn't do anything in. Maindeck EE has been stellar, as many others here have attempted to figure out ways to battle the chalice menace. EE is the least clunky way of doing so, at least MD.

You'll notice the 4th Snapcaster mage and the third predict in the sideboard. These come in like 90% of the time, since post board, our deck's configurations are a lot less clunky than preboard. We usually take out either force, cb, or terminus and add in more spells, thus allowing us to leverage the power of predict and Snapcaster mage much further. Finally, the 3rd Monastery Mentor appears when we just want to end the game immediately, vs lots of fringe decks that we normally have poor matchups against, like goblins, 12 post, manaless dredge, et al.

We're still cleaning up a lot of this, as some cards are underperforming while others are overperforming, and doing our best to clean things up in time for the GP.

One last note: the last sideboard card is completely uncertain. We want to have a card that does well against matchups where cb is at its absolute worst: Maverick, Jund, 4c Loam, and Eldrazi. You'll notice that the card that lines up the easiest vs these matchups is, well, Blood Moon but since blood moon is now expected and can be played around. If you want to know my personal issues with blood moon, please read the following: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post938512. That being said, I actually think Blood Moon is the best fit here, but AnziD disagrees with me in that Blood Moon isn't a death knell anymore, but I literally cannot think of anything else.

Please feel free to ask any questions in regards to this list, I'd be happy to answer those asked in a constructive manner :D

If you want to see the list in action (and listen to some sick beats), check out AnziD's last two streams (no commentary)
https://www.twitch.tv/anzi104/v/65524844 and https://www.twitch.tv/anzi104/v/65715254

Thanks, and best of luck testing for the Legacy GP!

I really like your insight on Counterbalance here. I've been feeling the same way myself. I get it in play often and it is just so mediocre. Even when I get my "lock" up, people just end up dropping something huge or landing a needle on top, etc, not to mention Decay basically invalidates the whole strategy. Can I ask though how you feel about running a 1 of Entreat? I've always found it to be really versatile and that 1 doesn't usually get in the way like running 2 sometimes can, and it makes it much harder for opponents to blank us entirely on win cons, especially since you're on 2 Jace instead of 3 and since you don't have any clique in the sideboard. Though Snapcaster beats can win us games, I don't really consider him a win condition for what seem to be obvious reasons lol. I'd appreciate your thoughts on this or maybe even an entreat in the sideboard over the third mentor.

Thanks! :D

[Echinoderm]

Casual has a point. This thread is Not the place for rulings questions or beginners trying to learn the game. Before you come to this thread you have to know such simple things as how the stack works. If you don't know such things you can google them. If you have more specific questions you can ask them in the MtgSalvation rulings page where answers are given within the hour you ask them. This question does not even warrant a post in the MtGS rulings page. It warrants a google search of "how does the stack work mtg".

Then he can notify a moderator or admin who can remove it, or he can politely request such. Nobody needs to treat people poorly here. Also, I think people would appreciate it if we could all let this pass. :)

[twndomn]

King, feel free to ask any more questions. The rest of us are happy to answer.

No, there's a time and place for everything. If you want ruling questions or game-play question like stack, the place is Not here. This thread is Miracles specific. Obscure Miracles-specific interaction like Wear//Tear flipping via CB is ok to ask, but this should not be the norm. Google or mtg judges is the correct place to ask.

A few key things: 3 CB's because CB is the worst it's ever been, since the inception of the deck. 3 CS to compensate for that while also being good in matchups that CB doesn't do anything in. Maindeck EE has been stellar, as many others here have attempted to figure out ways to battle the chalice menace. EE is the least clunky way of doing so, at least MD.

One last note: the last sideboard card is completely uncertain. We want to have a card that does well against matchups where cb is at its absolute worst: Maverick, Jund, 4c Loam, and Eldrazi. You'll notice that the card that lines up the easiest vs these matchups is, well, Blood Moon but since blood moon is now expected and can be played around. If you want to know my personal issues with blood moon, please read the following: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post938512. That being said, I actually think Blood Moon is the best fit here, but AnziD disagrees with me in that Blood Moon isn't a death knell anymore, but I literally cannot think of anything else.

Disagree on 3 CB. I feel this is the path of fools' gold. Yes, CB is at its worst in terms of the meta. However, think about all the MUs it would be good against. Against unknown opponent game 1, it's a shot onto yourself by lowering your win-rate when CB is a decent card once the MU becomes known. The difference between 3 CB vs 4 CB is as the following: With 4 CB, you give yourself the mentality of jamming CB on turn 2, even if you might run into Daze when you are on the play. With 3 CB, this line might become too risky. I understand why you would do this, but I cannot. Maybe some tournament results would sway my mind, but at this point in time I cannot agree.

I have tried EE in MD, but I feel bad regarding how slow it is. As in, it's too slow against Infect, it doesn't deal with CMC 3 when you're being Ported by DnT mid to late game. Or you just wish it's another removal to get rid of Choke. There are just many clunky scenarios in which EE is not able to be the answer due to opponent's locks. It's a valid option, but I feel instant-bounce effect might be better off.

Regarding Blood Moon, just trust AnziD's opinion. I am willing to run 1 in the SB, but I would prefer From the Ashes. You know this, you run so many Snapcasters.

[CutthroatCasual]

I was actually looking at the EE tech last night; would it be worth cutting the Spell Pierce (which is currently one of my flex slots) for it? The Spell Pierce was put in mainly to counter early Chalices or Sylvan Libraries, not so much stop an on-curve Jace (or other 4+ non-creature spell), but if I could just EE them away (along with other 0 or 2-drops) then that would allow for more versatility since if it's not those 2 cards, EE can be put on 1 or 3 to answer a broader range of threats.

[Dice_Box]

EE is just a great catch all. From answering apposing Counterbalance to wiping Elves off the map, its great. If your plan is to run it as a catch for this artifacts, I think it would do that task admirably with a lot of added benefit.

It's also a good answer to already resolved problem cards, something Pierce is unable to do.

[ironclad8690]

How do you guys board/play against Zombardment? I just played that guy back to back in my league and went 0-2 1-2, only won off of a lucksack Entreat.

He had the decay for my RiP every... single... time...

[CutthroatCasual]

Don't rely on CB so heavily in a deck where everything uses the graveyard?

Are you playing RiP?

It seems like this has a good Miracles MU (just sifting through the New and Dev primer) but not really against everything else? In which case, just don't worry about it.

[Echinoderm]

How do you guys board/play against Zombardment? I just played that guy back to back in my league and went 0-2 1-2, only won off of a lucksack Entreat.

He had the decay for my RiP every... single... time...

I've always felt that to be an easy match up, but I don't know exactly what build you were up against. Not only are Terminus and Swords a beating because the removal is more permanent than with other decks, but you have Force and Wear/Tear for goblin bombardment. RIP is just crushing which they have to decay in order to win the game, and Counterbalance basically hits everything, since they have a lot of 1 and 2. I've never had any problems with it anyway.