I'm sorry, I misspoke (typed?). Pithing Needle doesn't kill Morphling, but it makes it not so immune to everything that does kill it (Swords, Lightning Bolt, etc.). If a deck can't answer a 3/3 vanilla in Legacy, chances are it's not that viable anyway.Originally Posted by Cavius The Great
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I agree and have been playing him in Morphling's place on workstation. Efreet is so incredibly hard to kill. Morphling may be much faster, but by the time you're ready to win they can lay down tons of removal and overwhelm you. Against decks without creatures to grab control of, this is a problem.
I wrote this before and somehow it is away.
- Phyrexian Ironfoot is about a bazillion times better than Ophidian. Ophidian sucks. It is bad. Ironfoot can be easily supported with Snow lands. It is a great blocker wihout a drawback in the early game, it blocks away Mongeese and kills every Goblin in combat. It also survives Bolt. If you established some control and build up a Mana base he is an extremely efficient beater with Vigilance.
- Play 2-3 Repeal maindeck. Sometimes it is the perfect solution for problematic cards like Lightning Rift, Aether Vial and Pithing Needle and the other times it is an absolutely solid card without any card disadvantage.
I think I'm starting to come around the the Repeal idea more and more. It's such an effective card to have a few of in a deck, and I'm absolutely loving it in standard, so I guess I'm going to have to try it here in this MUC deck. It answers every permanent, and cantrips. Loving it.
I really like Ironfoot, but I'm guessing it's going to be pretty average in a MUC deck. I hate the fact that it requires an upekeep if you want to use it as pressure, especially against other control decks. It is a fine wall though, and gets a lot better later in the game. I'm neither here nor there on it, and I'm sure that it would be better served as something else.
KIDS WITH GUNS!
Would you count Chalice of the Void as such an answer?
This deck is predestinated for Chalice at one, Mainboard of course.
QFT.
With Chrome Mox it can even be 1st turn answer to lackey on the draw.
What about the draw?
Brainstorm/Impulse/TfK/FoF/Accu-Intu are all hot candidates.
What compilation do you feel comfortable with?
In addtion, i guess the land count is a not unimportant fact to answer this.
That's what counters are for. If you can't counter the first Needle then counter anything targeting the Morphling. Plus it's a basically a 2 for 1 deal making your opponent lose card advantage.
Last edited by Cavius The Great; 10-22-2006 at 01:05 PM.
Hi !
@ Doks
They sure are candidates. I can see two options here. Either maximize your cantrips, such as Repeal or Trickbind (instead of Stifle), and only make use of a "light" draw engine. Or play standard solutions, and rely on "bigger" draw spells.
Brainstorm although quite potent, may lack the critical number of shuffle effects in such a deck to really shine, unless you are at least running fetchlands, and I am not even sure running 5 fetches will be enough. The best spell for that deck would probably be Skeletal Scrying (your grave should fill up quickly, and the ability to refill your hand with life and used cards at instant speed looks invaluable to me). Unfortunately it is black... Maybe a light splash should be considered ? I do not really know...
Anyway, I am almost convinced though that the deck will have a hard time supporting Intuition + AK since it takes so many slots.
I would do the following.
Brainstorms (card quality) + Fetchlands (5 ?) + black splash for Skeletal Scrying (card quantity), on top of a few cantrips (Repeal seems like a good candidate as was said earlier by previous posters. I would also try Trickbind although it looks inferior to Stifle) and would definitely consider Impulse.
Fact Or Fiction, at 3U, looks too expensive to me.
As for Chalice, depends what it shuts down on your side of the board. If you cannot Stifle or Brainstorm anymore, it could be a liability...
Possible decklist, based on what was previously said.
MUC - Legacy
14 Islands
4 Underground Sea
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
23 Lands
3 Serendib Efreet
2 Morphling
3 Vedalken Shackles
8 "Creatures"
4 Counterspell
4 Force Of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Skeletal Scrying
3 Force Spike
3 Stifle
3 Repeal
3 Propaganda
2 Psionic Blast
29 Spells
Last edited by Vervamon; 10-22-2006 at 09:55 AM. Reason: Added a possible decklist
Fact or Fiction is the one card that makes this deck tick. Cutting it is a HUGE mistake. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that not running 4 is a mistake. Skeletal Scrying takes far too long to work to any real extent, and giving up life to draw cards is exactly what this deck does not need. Why not just play Stroke of Genius or Braingeyser if you wanted an X draw spell anyway? Although this is also a lesser factor, Skeletal Scrying lacks synergy with Rune Snag, and you should almost definately be running 4 Rune Snags in this deck.I would do the following.
Brainstorms (card quality) + Fetchlands (5 ?) + black splash for Skeletal Scrying (card quantity), on top of a few cantrips (Repeal seems like a good candidate as was said earlier by previous posters. I would also try Trickbind although it looks inferior to Stifle) and would definitely consider Impulse.
Fact Or Fiction, at 3U, looks too expensive to me.
If you're running less counterspells this is the draw base I'd run:
X4 Fact or Fiction
X3 Brainstorm (Plus 5 or 6 fetchlands)
X4 Impulse
If you're running the full 16 counterspells you have a few options. You can go with my build and cut Brainstorm, or you can instead run something like this:
X3 Fact or Fiction
X3 Brainstorm
X3 Impulse
Intution and AK take up far too many slots and don't do anything that this deck already can't do by just running Fact or Fiction, which as I said earlier is a card you absolutely must be running. Another direction for this deck to go in might be predicated on dropping Chalice for one early one and cutting Brainstorm to make itself entirely immune to it. Obviously it'll need to be tested, but I think that idea has some validity to it.
Regarding your list specifically, that list looks like it would lose ground in the Gro matchup and not really gain any ground anywhere else. It has less counters for the Combo matchup, not enough creatures to make the Solidarity matchup any better, and it lacks Back to Basics which is such a huge trump over so many decks that it almost singlehandedly makes quite a few matchups positive. Splashing is a possible route, but I also doubt any advantages you'd gain by splashing for a card like Skeletal Scrying, which isn't even that good, outweigh the advantages of being to play Back to Basics and running Fact or Fiction instead of Scrying, which you should be doing anyway.
Hello,
I was the other guy that would write a primer for the deck, but had to go on a bussiness trip and couldn't work on it. But I mostly agree with the primer. I only do play Brainstorm and play Chalice of the Void MD.
I chose to play Brainstorm, because it really shines, when you don't have a Mox. It allows you to keep manaweaker hands. I do play 6 fetchlands to support it. I run it next to Impulse and Fact or Fiction though.
I chose to run Chalice of the Void, the moment I chose Chrome Mox as acc. The chance of a T1 Chalice for 1 is huge. Even a slower Chalice helps preboard in beating Iggy and Solidarity. I cut counters for it and at the moment I only run 12( Force of Will, Counterspell and Mana Leak( I don't have Rune Snag.) Chalice counts as counterspell 13 to 15.
I dropped at this moment Ophidian from the list, but do sometimes mis a recurring drawengine, if only Library was legal.
BB
One thing I was wondering was whether or not forbid would still be relevant, its interaction with ophidian still exists and it can lock the game down. I don't know for sure because I haven't tested it, just throwing that out there. Its a silly idea but it really can be used in interaction with arcane lab if you want to be rediculous.
Another thing I would like to add is that stifle seems really relevant in the current format since it has a target against every deck and in the case that it is less useful it will still have a use game one and then be boarded out if needed. For the most part you will always be able to taget a fetch.
@Morphling vs. Meloku: Although you can protect Meloku with your counters the difference is that Morphling generates virtual card advantage forcing all removal into dead cards, Meloku doesn't do this, you have to 1 for 1 to protect Meloku, Morphling 0 for 1s against removal.
@Repeal, this sounds like a really good idea, repeal generates a lot of tempo especially casted on the end step or when your opponent is tapped out, it should definitly be considered in MUC
@# of Shackles: Sure shackles is a relevant card but running more then two starts getting worse, being stuck with shackles early game is just terrible, you have to wait till turn 3 to cast it, and even then it is only relevant turn four. In fact I think running propaganda main would be a better idea because it takes effect immediately before the MUC player dies
@Force Spike: Force spike seems to be a very relevant card, it is almost always useful up to the first 4 turns against goblins, and at worst it can be pitched to fow, sure its worse late game but extras can also be removed to chrome mox.
Hi !
@Lanfeng
I am in line with your ideas. By the way, the number of Shackles is totally metagame dependant. Mine is full of aggro, so 3 looked like the right number. Of course 2 in a varied metagame is probably better (I never face combo decks). Maybe Propaganda + Back to Basics, instead of Shackles + Propaganda could be considered depending on the meta as they also play nice together.
@Kadaj
I am sorry I have to disagree with you, based on my past experiences, in both T1, and Legacy.
In T1, I do play a single FOF, and often found myself unwilling to cast it because of it is cost. And I think it says a lot in a format with tons of acceleration and fast mana. The investment is huge, even for type 1. FOF although powerful, is not as gamebreaking as Gifts Ungiven for example. Some people already cut it from their Control Slaver lists, replacing it with the more easily abusable Memory Jar.
Back to legacy : since you do not have too many threats, you play answers, and the problem is, at least to me, that keeping 4 mana open to play an end of turn FOF is not that easy, when you are almost guaranteed to have something else to do each turn, be it counter something, bounce something, or play a Propaganda to slow down those weenie hordes... The point is FOF is not good early game, and unfortunately that is this deck weak point. The reason I favor Skeletal Scrying over FOF is that it can be modular. You can dig for 1/2 early game, and then late game, when you have stabilized, draw like 5/6 cards, and go for the kill.
The two replacement candidates you mentioned are unfortunately too slow (Stroke costs at least 4... Braingeyser is a sorcery) to be really helpful.
As for Skeletal Scrying and Rune Snag, I do not think that is an issue, it is quite easy to let key cards in your graveyard while you remove the others, even early in the game (Force Spike and Fetches will go to fuel your Scrying, while Rune Snags are left in the graveyard).
To sum it up, FOF certainly is good, but does not help that deck early game, and without fast mana, is rather hard to cast.
I will test the deck again this week with a friend, and will let you know the results.
And this is the reason for me to play Thirst for Knowledge (with 3-4 CotV MB):
Discarding one of that many artifacts in a paying way is just strong.
With a lower landcount of 22 CC3 ist just more payable.
My Drawengine:
3 Impulse
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Fact or Fiction
No Brainstorm 'cause of Chalice 1.
But after some testing today I find out that you just need Brainstorm for those "manaweaker" hands and early CQ.
At least, pitching it to Chrome Mox/FoW or discarding it with TfK makes sure it is not completely dead with Chalice 1 on the board.
Greetz,
Doks
If you've been unwilling to play a FoF in Vintage because if it's cost then I don't know what to tell you. FoF is so broken in Vintage because of that mana accelleration you mentioned. BBS with 4 Facts was so broken because it could have Morphling AND Fact or Fiction up by as early as turn 3. Obviously in Legacy that doesn't matter, but you have Impulse and Brainstorm to fill the role Skeletal Scrying would in the early game, and believe me Brainstorm + Fetchland is much better than Scrying for 2 cards. That's coming from someone who doesn't even run Brainstorm in his build.
If anything, it sounds like you're not playing this deck properly. You don't NEED to counter everything. You only counter the actual threats. If your opponent lays down a Silver Knight on an empty and you have the option of countering it or playing EOT FoF there's no contest, absolutely go with Fact. Second, the other major reason why Skeletal Scrying is totally unviable in this deck is because it's black. It forces you to splash, which opens you up to wasteland, and most of all it cuts off your ability to use the absolutely game-breaking Back to Basics. This might be the most important point of all. This deck should be making it's first 5 or 6 land drops. If you can't cast FoF with 6 lands in play then I don't know what to tell you.
You have plenty of answers for threats and not all of them are counterspells. Vedalken Shackles and Powder Keg do a good job of leaving you with that flexibility to play EOT FoF. And seriously, Scrying has the same problem as Fact in the scenarios you've described. It costs the same amount of mana to net worthwhile card advangtage (B3 to draw 3, which nets you plus 2 cards) and in that case why wouldn't you just play FoF and leave open the possibility of getting a 4 for 1? Sure you can Scrying for 5 or 6, but by the time you get that far into the game you should just drop Morphling and win anyway.
If you want more early game flexibility with your card drawing play 4 Impulse 4 Brainstorm and 3 Fact or Fiction. Or work in any number of other viable blue card drawing spells for that matter, they'll all do what Scrying does without opening you up to wasteland and ruining your ability to play B2B.
looking at the draw engine of the deck, I would shy away from running a set of brainstorms + a set of impulses, In fact I might even opt to run neither, the big problem that ails blue based control is falling behind in the card advantage race, I like the better capabilities of tfk and FoF mainly because it generates card advantage, you have inevitability but you gotta keep down the initial onslaught and since counters are just constant 1 for 1s you have to be able to get ahead and stay ahead with the 1 for 1s, early game flexibility is great but you want to live so that you overwhelm your opponent, trading 1 for 1 in card advantage while not removing threats is not great, thirst for knowledge seems like a good way to fight this.
edit: Accumulated knowledge would be good since you are gonna drive into the late game and accumulated knowledge is CA after the first, it doesn't combat the problem about how slow this deck is but it is an Idea
Last edited by Lanfeng; 10-23-2006 at 09:29 PM.
I think there is no one who really ones to loose Fact or Fiction. But you need cardquality in the beginning, what if you are stuck on 2/3 lands and unable to FoF. You need the digging of Impulse and maybe brainstorm. Also Impulse allows you to play a split of 2/2/2 of Kegs, B2Bs and Shackles.
Thirst for Knowledge isn't that great. I was often forced to pitch 2 cards, because I didn't want to loose Shackles. You can't really run much Artifactlands, because it does'n's work well with B2B, opens you to wasteland and makes your Shackles worse.
You've answered your question about Accumulated Knowledge. It's nice, but doesn't help the early game.
Well, TfK ist just good in combination with Chalice and Moxen MB.
Otherwise it is like you claimed: discarding 2 cards...
But in this deck this does not hurt that much because there is always sth. in your hand you don't need in a certain situation.
TfK, if not providing cardadvantage, provides CQ at least.
The problem of Impulse is that it gets weaker in the mid-lategame where TfK/FoF are much better imho as you have the mana to cast them.
So Impulse as a 4-off is not that good I guess; 3 should do a good job, even if I am testing at the moment without early CQ.
Doks
Doks is right, You should only run TfK if you are MB Moxen and Chalice. If you are MB chalice then brainstorm becomes irrevelant. Three Impulse and three FoF is the way to go. Though a possibility is Gifts Ungiven since it can garantee you atleast 2 cards you want. Its an idea worth testing.
Accum Knowledge does not work, yeah its awesome late game, but i rather cast a FoF late game. If i can get two FoF to hit, i will not usually loose the game.
Splashing for Skeletal Scrying is not a good idea, if you want to run it in Duck Hunt, then yes but THIS IS MONO BLUE CONTROL. You also dont usually want to loose life either, since you tend to win around 5 to 6 life against aggro decks. Back to Basics is far better overall in shutting down GUW and Affinity than extra draw from Skeletal.
After some testing, i find out following:
CotV MB is just a bomb:
NQG dies if it can't cantrip - they can just throw their CC1 spells into it to reach threshold - without any effect for us ending up into huge advantage - even late game Mongoose isn't relevant anymore.
There Removal for our Superman (-> Swords/Bolt) is no problem anylonger, but the most important thing is that their cantripengine is just shut down.
In combination with TfK and the other artifacts there is a strong drawengine.
Against Combo CotV MB gives us a much better chance:
- Solidarity: Without their High Tide they are slown extremly. But now the Cunning Wishes have become a Mustcounter because of Time Spiral's Wipe Away.
- Chalice 0 against Gamekeeper-Combo is just great ;)
- Burn is much better to handle with Chalice 1.
I've got a question - how do you side against Goblins and NQG?
Goblins usually I side Chalice out to follow the 6 BEB/Hydroblast plan used in Germany since a few month.
The problem is that Gobbos is one of the worse MUs.
Chalice is good against Lackey/Vial/Fanatics, but you lack that removal for the early Rush - I'm completely indeterminded.
For NQG, I just try to fit in the 3rd B2B for 1 Repeal. That's all. :/
Any Suggestions?
Doks
I'm not sure if this has been discussed or not, but...has anyone considered the Counterbalance Spell Denial Engine (tm) for this deck? It would let you run fewer counters and make you less vulnerable to being slowplayed by combo, and you already run Brainstorm so all you'd have to add is Top and maybe Scroll Rack.
Just thought I'd throw this out there.
Awesome.
I've been testing out a version of MUC with the Top/Snow Sheets engine (which seems to be kind of good) and I think that Counterbalance would be really efficient in it.
// Lands
14 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets
2 [CS] Mouth of Ronom
// Creatures
3 [US] Morphling
2 [AN] Serendib Djinn
// Spells
4 [UD] Powder Keg
3 [GP] Repeal
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [LG] Psychic Purge
3 [A] Psionic Blast
2 [MM] Misdirection
4 [CS] Rune Snag
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [GP] Repeal
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [SH] Mana Leak
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
(Yes, Top is the only cantrip because even though you have a consistent land base, the mana is being eaten way too much to support FoF, and Brainstorm would make 12 1cc spells with Chalice, which is not cool.)
It could probably replace the Rune Snags or something. So there are 11 total 1cc, 12 2cc, 6 3cc, 2 4cc, 9 5cc, so it could work! It would also let me cut something like Cunning Wish for Tangle Wire and maybe even Choking Tethers so there's a chance against Goblins...
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