Sneak and Show, ANT/TES, Miracles, Delver, Lands, DnT.Originally Posted by Warden
Sorry about the list formatting, I was trying to keep things a little more concise - I think I just confused people.
I don't think you need Pyroclasm if you're already running Punishing Fire. If anything, I'd be tempted to put Toxic Deluge or Massacre in that slot just so you have more removal for Prelate@2.
You guys do make a good point about Punishing Fire increasing vulnerability to Wasteland decks and hitting the manabase's stability a little. Might it be worth testing out Kolaghan's Command in that slot instead? I know it's something I advocate on a regular basis, but it does fulfil a similar role in a lot of games, is at least a little more live against combo decks, and lets us rebuy Sneaked bombs which feels pretty relevant in this build. It does give us less outs to planeswalkers, though - maybe a 2/1 Kolaghan's/Maelstrom Pulse split?
Prelate @ 2, yes please, dont touch my Sneak Attack.
Edit; Kolaghan's Command is a very solid card for this deck. Heck, it is an auto include in anything Jund related. Currently it is in the side, but defenitly deserves a maindeck slot.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Or Prelate @ 4, sure, eat fire!
The problem with running Kolaghan's is that is always feels like it competes with Punishing Fire for the same slot.
Couple responses:
I started out on 3 Sneak Attack (+1 Intent), and then realized that I just wanted to always have one, so I bumped to 4. Intent stayed for a while, and then was cut due to one too many times where I didn't have a bro to sac. As I said initially, extras aren't exactly dead.
If we're on PFire, there may be an argument for shaving the 3rd Deed for a maindeck Deluge, since as you, and others, have pointed out, DnT is much more likely to Prelate@2 if they see that we are on PFire.
I'm a big fan of Carpet for sure. They're definitely going to be in my revised list, regardless of whether we end up going down PFire or not.
Gaze is likely staying in the sideboard. Ugin, I can probably get behind cutting. The nice thing about Ugin is that he can't be Counterbalanced and I've run into multiple Miracles players who shave down to 2 Force of Will but leave in Counterbalances. Seems crazy, but that's what they did. It's also possible that this could be a Carpet slot and open up room elsewhere for other sideboard. Gaze has overperformed for me against a lot of matchups. It can't be hit by Pithing Needle (and clears out any Needles that are already in play), it can't be Counterbalanced, and it can't be Prelated. I'll definitely keep an eye on it in the coming weeks, but for right now, it's not going anywhere.
I've tested Kommand and found it kind of wanting. I wanted it to be good...but every time I drew it, I was like, well, this is fucking useless. On paper it definitely looks great...not convinced in application. But by all means, try it and see -- I only ran it for one event because I had a bad experience with it, it might just need more data.
Karakas and Nahiri kind of go together, so I'll address them at the same time. Karakas and Nahiri (we'll just say the "white splash" for ease) are something that Zirath thought of and suggested. I tried it out, and it was pretty good with the biggest issue being that it strained the manabase. You basically had to -1 Phyrexian Tower -1 Volraths -1 Forest for +1 Plains +1 Savannah +1 Karakas. Nahiri was very strong, but I eventually decided after testing that losing Two Towers (by, by extension, Primeval Titan) and a bit of consistency wasn't worth the little bit of extra power. If Nahiri was on-color, she'd be in the deck in a goddamn heartbeat. My issue with her is not, well, her -- it's the colors required to support her in direct comparison to losing Two Towers. I'm not afraid of running 4c (see also: Ultimate), but I don't think the trade-off is worth it. Feel free to debate, it's possible I'm wrong. I will note this in closing: Losing Volrath's is hard. Losing Phyrexian Tower is unacceptable. I've debated about putting a 2nd PhyTower in this deck. Card is unreal in this version.
Have you considered running 1-2x Nahiri 1x Savannah out of the sideboard?
Gonna chime in here since we are talking about Nahiri. I strongly believe there is a version of this deck that uses Nahiri. However, as Arianrhod pointed out, we have to make enormous changes to the deck to make it work smoothly. We theory'd a bit to try to figure out configurations that would allow us to have Nahiri and, while they are very powerful, I think the current iteration of the deck doesn't particularly need her. The match ups where she will stand out the most are ones that we are already strong in. We don't need more redundancy. A caveat could be made for Miracles since Nahiri will provide card advantage but in that match up, if we can resolve Nahiri, we can probably resolve Sneak Attack too. Miracles revolves more around not losing to Jace, which is something Nahiri doesn't guarantee. More pressing are Lands, Storm, and Elves which Nahiri does close to nothing since she is too slow. If we consider the cards we would cut to make space for her, most of them will be cards that fundamentally makes us faster (DRS, STE, Towers). In general, I think we would have to start from the beginning as far as building a list that makes Nahiri powerful enough to be worth it.
Got a loss in Round 1 for showing up late, then proceeded to ranch 3 peeps in a row.
Beat DnT 1-0 after going to 1 life, then crawling back up to 62. Nbd. Sigarda + Batterskull is strong, comrade.
Round 2 faced Reanimator. Game 1 beat him with DRS. Game two got Grave Titan'd into the dirt. Game 3 ripped apart his hand and got Scooze down.
Round 3 faced 43 lands. Won a LONG game 2 after I got turn 3 Marit Laged in Game 1. Had to face 4 trackers, but got there with Needle for the combo, amd nuttering Triple Path and Eternal Witness. Game 3,turn 2 blood moon. Rekt.
Signed up for a paper Legacy league the other day, need to submit a decklist soon, I think it's something like 10 weeks long so I should get a bit of Legacy in again. Only downside is that I'll be locked into one specific list. Debating between my usual SE Fit here and trying out the Sneak Attack list.
Either one will basically be my only Legacy events until Louisville (which I'm hoping to attend)
Edit: How would the deck function with a second way to cheat things in? With Emrakul and Griselbrand, Goryo's Vengence is an obvious one, but that can't get Titans. Was any work done experimenting with this?
Last edited by Brael; 09-30-2016 at 01:40 PM.
My 2nd league with SneakFit got me to 3-2, winning against Dredge, Miracles, and Food Chain. Game 1 against Miracles, they countered 3 of my Sneak Attacks. Games 2 and 3 I was able to land one and win quickly after. I probably would have been fine against a BUG fit list for my first match, but I punted very hard by wasting a GSZ that could have been used to grab Empath and sneak in Emrakul...I have a bad habit of wanting to make plays every turn instead of being patient in some cases. Just need more practice. Other loss was ANT and was not much I could do there as he/she went off scarily fast in both games.
Prime Time fetching Stronghold, next turn upkeep put Prime Time on top of library is super sleek. Another instance I was able to sneak in Emrakul, then with the graveyard shuffle trigger, I snuck in E Witness to get Emrakul back to hand. I'm starting to prioritize fetching for Badlands and Taiga, getting the double sneak activations can be huge.
I'm seeing people side in graveyard hate although it doesn't seem too particularly effective against us. Makes me feel like this is a great deck for Sneak Attack - they can't simply needle/revoke like typical Sneak/Show lists and be fine. They have to deal with simple Meren recursion, or Deed to wipe away their hate, or just eventually die to the inevetibility of threats being hard cast.
What about massacre wurm? can be sneaked in and can do a lot of life loss. It's also one sided. Not sure if its too slow though when you need something like pyroclasm earlier.
Pyroclasm activates Veteran Explorer in match ups where you need the mana quickly but you are being disrupted on production (Delver).
List, sir scrub?
You need to play more like a combo deck. Play as if you've only got 1 chance to make it work, so make sure you make it count. This is where a second Empath and a Tasigur/Angler would shine most - they buy you the time needed to get to that point.
The thing is - one has to survive up until the point where one can start activating Sneak Attack. So speed is an issue. Also, when you've got a Sneak Attack on the field, that thing is competing w/ Griselbrand/Emrakul. Is it better than any of those? Nope. So unfortunately, it doesn't make the cut.
@Arianrhod: If you want to make Diabolic Intent work, try running a Dryad Arbor (and make sure you run 8 green fetches). I used to run a list that ran 4(!) Diabolic Intent, which worked quite well specifically b/c of that interaction. That, and it pairs up nicely w/ Fierce Empath. Cast/GSZ Empath to get your fattie, repurpose that silly Empath as food for Intent to get your Sneak Attack. If you're interested, I could post my old list so you can compare the slot distribution. It'd be a more streamlined, combo oriented list.
Something like...
2 DRS
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Ehino
2 SFM
1 Sigarda
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Batterskull
1 Elspeth KE
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Deed
3 Decay
3 Path
2 Truths
2 Sylvan
3 Top
4 therapy
4 zenith
2 towers
6 basics
1 taiga
Lands
////
2 blood moon
2 slaughter games
1 gaddock teeg
1 sooze
3 thoughtseize
2 needle
1 golgari charm
1 toxic deluge
2 dont remember
Made some Testgames with Arianrhod Sneak Fit idea - lot of fun!
Couldn't resist to go over the top with Nahiri
I tought about all the posts since the first sketch from Arianrhod goes around.
Look at all slots and find some space (i compared it too Arianrhods PFire List): I was not a fan of 4 Sneak Attack. Yes they can be countered/discarded etc but overall it is a 4cc bomb that can end the game IF you have the right target. Since this deck isn't Sneak&Show (aka Cantrip Shell) i wanted another Solution to cheat Emrakul&Co. Nahiri and Sneak Attack both are 4cc both need to be answered very soon. Sneak Attack itself does nothing (outside of scare the opponent^^) and it is better than Nahiri if you can fire it off with a target. Nahiri is better if you have no target in hand (and keep in mind she also can kill stuff if needed). As an Elves Player this feels like Glimpse&Natural Order both are different both can end the game and can cause headaches to most opponents. I was also not a fan of Sidisi because it is a random cc5 card (sadly no green) that can be good if you have a target for her. Otherwise it is either only a nice body on the field (but Nic Fit can run a lot of cc5 creatures that are better) or it is a overpriced tutor.
Finding Space for Nahiri: -1 Sidisi / -1 Sneak Attack
Lands: I thought long about it and as i mentioned, Karakas sounds good for me if we splash W. I cutted the 2nd Deathrite for 1 Karakas, both make mana, both can shine. Next step was looking at the basics: -3rd Forest for 1 Savannah to gain a fetchable gW-Land and finally -1 Swamp and +1 Plains (also fetchable with Sakura). I picked Swamp because i tought the build is mainly around RG with Sneak, PFire and Green-Zenith Stuff. Overall i think it can be also fine to trim the Karakas for 2nd Deathrite or stay with Karakas and go with Savannah or Plains (if you want a higher B count with 2nd Swamp) and not both since you only need 1 W if you draw Nahiri and i think most Wasteland decks will target other stuff like Two Towers or juicy Groves. Keep in mind that vs blue Decks you also have Carpet of Flowers in your Sideboard.
So for me 2x Nahiri (and no other cards that strain the Splash) seems manageable and it is only a question if she is worth the investment. So look at the build:
Sneak Fit feat. PFire and Nahiri
//Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
//Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Sneak Attack
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
//Lands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
2 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
//Sideboard
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroclasm
2 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
2 Shriekmaw
2 Carpet of Flowers
Sideboard is more or less the same, i simply like Garruk (and here he can also tutor real bombs) and Ooze is an all star for me and helps as a low cc Zenith target.
Some highlights from first test games:
Nahiri worked well, one game she meet a Revoker and i played Sneak Attack one turn later and went off (as i mentioned above, it is like Elves^^) another game vs UR Standstill my opponent invested TNN, Mishras and Bolts to get rid of Nahiri over the turns which was enough time to draw what i needed, since she was more or less only a distraction. Overall she won 2 games alone.
I drew Karakas vs DnT and it worked liked i thought vs Thalia and i also got it vs 12Post to attack through a hardcast Kozilek 2.0 another game i was in the position to save Meren for Swords to Plowshares.
You all are right about Deed, 3 should be a good number i only missed a 3rd decay (or other faster removal) vs UR Burn and early beaters paired with burn, but in this case Decay is still the best removal to pass Daze, Pierce & Co.
Overall for me the most funny way to play Nic Fit over the last years - great idea Arianrhod (also Bobmans to tinker with PFire)!
TEAM MtG Berlin
Sat down and played a few games on Xmage with a friend of mine, Arianrhod's build vs Grixis Delver. I ended up going 2-6.
What ended up beating me was
Loss 1 - Lack of removal. 2 DRS hit the board, and I just couldn't do anything about them.
Loss 2 - Multiple Cabal Therapy. My Sneak Attack got hit, Inferno Titan was stranded in hand with me stuck at 5 mana due to being Wastelanded, and knowing the opponent had a Daze.
Loss 3 - Poor draws in my part. Opening hand was Sneak Attack, Cabal Therapy, Pyroclasm, Pyroclasm, Swamp, Wooded Foothills, Verdant Catacombs. My next 4 draws were lands, and the only spells I cast that game were Therapy and 1 Pyroclasm. The rest got locked out by topdecked Dazes (after I called Daze with Therapy and missed), and a FoW in hand.
Loss 4 - Had a dream opening with Vet/Therapy, and a followup Therapy, and a Sneak Attack. Still lost because I ran out of gas and a Delver eventually killed me.
Loss 5 - Mulligan to 4, just couldn't generate enough mana to do anything. The keep was Deed, Decay, 2 Verdant and scry put another Deed on top. Lost to a single DRS beating me down.
Loss 6 - Had a great hand, got Wastelanded out of the game, and then ran out of gas. Ended up losing to Young Pyromancer eventually.
Win 1 - I won by the slimmest of margins after a pretty incredible streak of using Top to line up a Sneak Attack with Eternal Witness to block a Gurmag Angler on the last possible turn. The Witness returning a Decay to kill the opposing DRS, my Top getting me a GSZ then GSZ for Empath, Empath getting Emrakul, Sneak in Emrakul, and bring my opponent to 1 with 0 permanents, facing down a lethal Empath.
Win 2 - Long grind, we ran each other out of resources, but I had a Top and Tops always win topdeck wars.
All in all the general theme was that my deck just couldn't interact enough. I think it's rather telling that the only win coincidentally involved drawing a Deed and both Decays. I also think it's pretty telling that I did so bad against what should be one of the best matchups. I know one of the selling points was that the deck wouldn't run out of gas after the first Sneak Attack, but it honestly it felt like I didn't even have enough gas to get to the first Sneak Attack activation.
The games where I got Top all went much better than the games where I didn't, and worth pointing out is that in something like 6 or 7 of the 8 games I had a T1 Therapy. I ended up going 11/12 on my Therapy calls for the night, so my game was definitely on... the opponent just drew out of them.
After this performance I'm pretty sure I won't be playing the deck in my upcoming league. For those who are interested in it though I noticed a few things.
1. It felt like there was a real lack of interaction in the deck. The Punishing Fire plan should at a minimum be in the sideboard. The only thing that makes me hesitant to MB it, is the more combo like nature of the deck can probably steal game 1's, but in 2 and 3 it's harder to pull off, and being able to slide into a more attrition based plan where you hardcast things is likely to be strong.
2. Not enough fat. The GSZ->Fierce Empath strategy goes a long way towards getting a critical mass of Sneak Attack fodder, but it still felt light, and that plan is slow, requiring at least 5 mana. I think one more big creature would go a long ways here. I also think that streamlining the fat into fewer but more consistent options would be good. The Primeval Titan loop is awesome, and I was in a position to bring it out a couple times, but for as good as it is, it's never better than Emrakul. I question Griselbrand too actually. Who needs cards if you can instead win the game? I think a mix of Inferno Titan (removal, damage, hardcast) and Emrakul is strongest. At first glance you want 1 green creature to GSZ into, which would be Primeval , but that's 7 mana minimum to GSZ an Empath target when you can instead GSZ the Empath and get Inferno at 9 mana. The 7 vs 9 actually isn't a big deal here, and the 9 would be easier to cast because of my next point.
3. Not enough mana. Three of my 6 games I lost are directly attributable to not having Dryad Arbor to GSZ for. One time, it's because I couldn't GSZ for 0 to play around a spell pierce, another it's because I couldn't GSZ for 0 on T1 to accelerate, and the final time it's because I couldn't fetch for Therapy fodder. Aside from the Arbor issues, I kept pretty close tabs on my mana situation, and the CA in this deck just isn't there. I found it to top out at 5 mana frequently (the only exceptions were very long games), and chunks of 5 just aren't enough. It takes 7 to get a Titan. 5 is just enough for GSZ to Empath to Sneak Attack but that requires a 2 card combo that's easy to disrupt. Wasteland is also extremely potent against the deck, even taking advantage of the basics at every opportunity possible, Wasteland was able to cause me major issues, and it contributes a lot to the 5 mana plateau.
4. Mulligans poorly. This is related to point 3. The lack of mana means that what's already a tight resource gets tighter. The traditional ways to fight back against that are CA or lowering the curve. This deck has a high curve though and the CA just isn't there. These combine for poor mulligans. Going below 6 is pretty much a concession.
Anyways, I'm not trying to say the deck sucks or anything, but these are the big issues I saw that it could probably use some help with. On the other hand there were a few things that I really liked:
1. Empath was an all star.
2. Sidisi was alright. I liked Sidisi more than I thought I would, but my general instincts towards lowering the curve make me eye Intent instead. I was impressed with the way Sidisi could swing into virtually anything though and that it was a great counter to Gurmag Anglers. The lack of ways to tutor for it is a real issue though. It's a shame it's not a 6 drop.
3. 7 basics was great the same goes for the 22 non Arbor lands. I would say 80% of my land drops involved basic lands, which adds some real resiliency to the deck. Unfortunately, that remaining 20% were required and Wastelands really messed with me.
I'm seeing a lot of familiar things. Here's the platform I ended up with after about a decade worth of tweaking:
Manabase (21)
8 green fetch
2 non-green fetch
7 basic land
1 of each dual (3 total)
1 Phyrexian Tower
Removal suite
4 spotremoval
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Cabal Therapy
Creature suite
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman (we obviously want a lot of mana. DRS #3 is in favor of land #22)
2 Fierce Empath (I ran an extra for several reasons, you'll see those in a bit)
1 Eternal Witness
4 "real" fatties, Griselbrand/Emrakul type stuff
2 "flexible CMC" fatties (Tasigur/Gurmag Angler/Karador, Ghost Chieftain. This gives more function to your Empath and enables you to get a large body on the field in a hurry, even when lacking your combo card. You need this. This is what keeps you from falling just short a lot of the time.
And the rest:
4 combo enabler (in your case Sneak Attack)
4 Diabolic Intent (yes, yes, I know. Fierce Empath and Dryad Arbor make them a lot better though)
3 GSZ (I seriously couldn't find the space to cram in #4).
And there you have it.
I never found the space to cram in a Meren either, although that'd be high on the list of desired cards. Same goes for SDT by the way. This list allows you to fetch basics on a regular basis and DRS can get you that last mana you need to hardcast your fattie/get your combo card through a Daze etc.
One last thing - since you're playing more like a combo deck, you'll use your Diabolic Intents mostly to find removal and you'll just be hanging on for dear life until the combo assembles naturally in your hand. It's a very different style of playing than what you're normally used to. A single bad play can cost you the game with a list like this, keep that in mind. Games usually boil down to disrupt, stabilize, kill. Or in a more practical sense - discard & removal, (Empath into) flexible CMC fattie (sometimes steal the game with that), more discard & removal, combo out.
Fetch into Arbor -> Diabolic Intent is going to be an important thing. And remember that Diabolic Intent -> Tasigur/Gurmag is essentially free (you pay 2 mana but also dump 2 cards in the GY), this can also be a lifesaver. W/ 2 Empath, 3 GSZ and 4 Diabolic Intent that means that 10 cards in your 60 can represent a singe copy of a CMC >=6 creature.
As for colours - white is a good colour to be in. Elesh Norn can pull you out of a lot of crazy shit (I once lost b/c I opted to go for Emrakul rather than Elesh Norn. I died on the backswing, where Elesh Norn would probably have let me steal the game).
@ Junk SFM package. The talk about Nahiri also had me take another look at Nahiri, the Lithomancer. To be quite honest, the card is to good not to run.
@MD.Ghost, that manabase looks super intense. Do we get away with it? I mean, it looks super weak to Wasteland, high amount of mulligan and open to get color screwed quite often.
I didn't see you mention how well the manabase operated, couls you elaborate a little bit about its performance during your testing?
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
I only have a small sample size but it was no Desaster even against DnT or Delver Decks. The games I got issues are either because I didn't topdeck enough lands and /or got wasted/ported in a common way and got no Explorer Trigger. Basically every Nic Fit build lose games with duals in hand + no Land topdeck + no Explorer because we run no cantrip and a some costly Spells. What I mean, it was not because I changed 2 lands and added a 3rd (up to 23). Especially Karakas was very good and I can only see a 2nd Deathrite or Arbor here in Terms of speed up the game. It is more or less the question if you want good Ramp cards or a slightly higher chance to drop a Land which offers some protection against Legends. In no way Karakas should be affect the duals, basic and fetches. For me it is always card number 61 for specific Jobs.
Plains over 2nd Swamp hindert me one game to fire of blind Therapy against unknown opponent as a turn 1 play. Savannah over 3rd forest was ok, every time. I played Bug Pod a while so only 6 basics with Explorer was never a problem if you change the 3rd forest with a Green dual.
As I mentioned my sample size is to small to say the build runs smooth enough but keep in mind that you only need 1 W for 2 cards and you can also use Deathrite, Carpet or Explorer / sakura. I can also see it working in another config like 2 Deathrite and only Savannah without karakas and Plains or only with 2 lands if you like the 2nd Deathrite more.
Playing with Groves is the real issue if you fear Wasteland but Pfire was very strong for me and filled the gap until I can fire of Deed or combo or Hardcast Titan. See opponents board in Graveyard hate against this pile of cards was fun.
If Nahiri has a home in any Nic Fit shell than it is this since it is heavy red, have Emrakul & Grisel (and another way to Cheat them in) and Punishing Fire and Meren for still profit after her discard ability. Naming the correct card with Needle or Revoker can be hard against Sneak, Deed, top and Nahiri (and Garruk at Side).
TEAM MtG Berlin
Has anyone had some experience with Nylea, God of the Hunt in a Junk build? I'm looking for an alternative 4 drop to replace my lone Rhino, at a minimum in SB games. I see it being pretty solid against Miracles if I can sneak it in but at the same time I'm concerned that it requires 2 cards to work while Rhino can beat face all on his own.
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