[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[jbone2016]

Top 8'd with sneaky fit at a small legacy event on Sunday.
Beat burn, infect, big red. Lost to nahiri standstill.. Drew into top 8 and then lost to blue dark depths?.
Deck feels powerful but has some weak matchups.

Similar to Navsi's list. -minus the fire/grove-

[Ralf]

Deck feels powerful but has some weak matchups.

Could you please be a little more specific when you have time ?

I've jammed some tests with the list.
Here are a few impressions:

1) Some starting hands are really awkward.
2) I did't like Meren (or maybe I didn't understand how to play it in the first place)
3) Sometimes attacking once with a sneaked Emmy isn't enough
4) Never felt like I needed Griselbrand. The only time I could have cast it, I was 1 black mana short...
5) The deck is playing too much with sorcery speed. This was bad against Infect (for example)
6) I felt I was lacking a tutor (wasn't playing sidisi though), there were a few games where I was sitting with an active sneak and no creature to be sneaked... -> cross point n°3.
7) I was not a fan of Tireless. Effect was powerful only once but slow as hell.
8) I somehow missed a "playable" & "zenithable" creature that could block opposing flying creatures. A one-of Ishkanah might do the trick.
9) 2 towers + primeval Titan is busted. Sneaking + recurring a Thragtusk made my day. There is maybe not enough creatures with an ETB trigger to abuse.
10) Stronghold doesn't get you to draw. A creature with a "draw" ETB trigger might be needed.

I'll try to tweak the list a bit next time.

[Navsi]

1) Some starting hands are really awkward.
2) I did't like Meren (or maybe I didn't understand how to play it in the first place)
3) Sometimes attacking once with a sneaked Emmy isn't enough
4) Never felt like I needed Griselbrand. The only time I could have cast it, I was 1 black mana short...
5) The deck is playing too much with sorcery speed. This was bad against Infect (for example)
6) I felt I was lacking a tutor (wasn't playing sidisi though), there were a few games where I was sitting with an active sneak and no creature to be sneaked... -> cross point n°3.
7) I was not a fan of Tireless. Effect was powerful only once but slow as hell.
8) I somehow missed a "playable" & "zenithable" creature that could block opposing flying creatures. A one-of Ishkanah might do the trick.
9) 2 towers + primeval Titan is busted. Sneaking + recurring a Thragtusk made my day. There is maybe not enough creatures with an ETB trigger to abuse.
10) Stronghold doesn't get you to draw. A creature with a "draw" ETB trigger might be needed..

1. Probably true.
2. Agreed.
3. It seems fine to me. Usually the enemy is so behind afterwards you have time to finish them off if they aren't already dead.
4. This is probably true. It might be better to run a fatty that's easier to hardcast.
5. Punishing Fire helps here. Are you playing a PFire build?
6. Sidisi seems pretty relevant.
7. I think we have better things to be doing in this build.
8. Broodmate Dragon?
9. Yeah. Broodmate seems relevant again.
10. Woodland Bellower?


Woodland Bellower in particular seems pretty great in this version, since he's another search for Emrakul off of Sneak Attack (finding Fierce Empath), castable without Sneak, and also finds Witness which is pretty sweet.

I'm tempted to cut Griselbrand, Meren, Tireless Tracker for Woodland Bellower, second Fierce Empath, second Eternal Witness. That way we have 8 ways of drawing Emrakul for Sneak Attack, up to 10 if we have an Empath or Bellower in the graveyard. We also have a lethal chain off a single Empath, for Bellower - Empath - Emrakul, to help us get to lethal in a single attack. Might also be worth putting Reclamation Sage in the maindeck.

[Ralf]

1. Probably true.
2. Agreed.
3. It seems fine to me. Usually the enemy is so behind afterwards you have time to finish them off if they aren't already dead.
4. This is probably true. It might be better to run a fatty that's easier to hardcast.
5. Punishing Fire helps here. Are you playing a PFire build?
6. Sidisi seems pretty relevant.
7. I think we have better things to be doing in this build.
8. Broodmate Dragon?
9. Yeah. Broodmate seems relevant again.
10. Woodland Bellower?

Broodmate is an idea.
I'll try both Broodmate and Ishkanah.

One is conditional (but 5 cmc instead of 6), I get that, but 3 spiders (if you have delirium)+ recursivity (with 2 towers) + ishkanah's ping ability might be better than Broodmate and its 4/4 flying token.

Woodland Bellower seems to also be another idea to be tested.

And no, I'm not playing with the PF build. I tried the stock list (minus Sidisi as I didn't have access to her).

[Navsi]

Broodmate is an idea.
I'll try both Broodmate and Ishkanah.

One is conditional (but 5 cmc instead of 6), I get that, but 3 spiders (if you have delirium)+ recursivity (with 2 towers) + ishkanah's ping ability might be better than Broodmate and its 4/4 flying token.

Woodland Bellower seems to also be another idea to be tested.

And no, I'm not playing with the PF build. I tried the stock list (minus Sidisi as I didn't have access to her).

Ishkanah being CMC5 also means she can't be fetched up with Fierce Empath, which is a noticeable downside. I'm not sure whether this deck can reasonably expect to have delirium - if the opponent doesn't have a deathrite, we can probably get land + creature in there easily, and instant from a removal spell, but unless we've had a Sneak/Zenith/Top/PW countered or left a Therapy in the graveyard, we don't have many ways of getting the 4th card type - and against Deathrite our odds are really quite bad. It might be worth going for Broodmate just for that.

[cherson]

I am not convinced of the SFM build anymore. in my opinion it is not enough gas. SFM dies too fast, most of the time before u can even play batterskull.
furthermore it simply bothering me that I can't zenith for SFM and deed basically kills all the equipments.

I will switch back to rhino/walker mix.

did someone try liliana of the veil? I am not quite sure if the BB is a problem or if the etb is enough.
currently I play garruk relentless and sorin, load innistrad main.

I watched some bug fit games on twitch. the guy played to the slaughter main. what do u think?

[square_two]

I'm also questioning Meren in the Sneak list, and possibly Sidisi. Meren dominates the fair, ground-based matchups but this verison of nic fit might just be even better against those than typical lists, I'm not sure. Still need some more games in, but I'm hesitant to cut Sidisi simply because she has been pretty useful to grab Sneak Attack. Even if she exploits herself, then you can next turn sneak her in if you have access to Volrath's Stronghold. 4/6 body great against Angler and Reality Smasher which are nice bonuses.

I think that Tracker is a question of whether you want to be focused most exclusively on the combo, and give up some potential for midrange goodstuff. I still find myself liking the guy and occasionally GSZ for him if I have a fetch in hand, in order to lay out some card draw and get out of situations where I'm short on gas. If there were cheap green creatures that could tutor for Sneak Attack then I would consider dropping him but for now he'll stick in my list.

2nd Empath definitely warranted, I'm usually getting to 6 mana ok and just could use a hardcast Titan to seal the game.

[Ralf]

I will switch back to rhino/walker mix.

did someone try liliana of the veil? I am not quite sure if the BB is a problem or if the etb is enough.
currently I play garruk relentless and sorin, load innistrad main.

I watched some bug fit games on twitch. the guy played to the slaughter main. what do u think?

@ Junk Control Fit:

This is where I am now:

1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Scrubland
4 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Siege Rhino
4 Veteran Explorer

1 Garruk Relentless
1 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

3 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Pernicious Deed

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile

1 Diabolic Intent
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Baneslayer Angel

1) I thought I could get away without SLG. I was wrong.
2) One should really test Nissa, Voice of Zendikar. She has won me many many games.
3) I have pondered for ages between Sakura / DRS or a mix of both. Finally, when you play bombs, you want mana. DRS is way to fragile and does not synergize well with Deed.
4) Liliana of the Veil is a hell of a card but Junk Fit, as it is, is not a really good home for her. If you want to play her, I advise you play some cards that synergize well with her (Lingering souls is a good example)
5) Sideboard is a dedication to what I am facing right now. The ability to go even bigger with Baneslayer post side solves numerous headaches
6) Don't ask, Miracle is still not a balanced MU...

@ Delirium: I think BUG might be one of the best (if not the best) Fit build to try to abuse Delirium cards:
- To the slaughter is nice but I really doubt its effect to be THAT powerful in legacy (except against shardless).
- Ishkanah is also very nice

Pick your weapon.

Edit: I think "by not playing LotV" is maybe why we can't beat Miracle. When I used to be playing her, Miracle was easier, much much more easier.

[Ulysse95]

@ Junk Control Fit:

This is where I am now:
[cards]
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Scrubland
4 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

1) I thought I could get away without SLG. I was wrong.

@ Delirium: I think BUG might be one of the best (if not the best) Fit build to try to abuse Delirium cards:
- To the slaughter is nice but I really doubt its effect to be THAT powerful in legacy (except against shardless).

Pick your weapon.

I saw that you put in a taiga dedicated to slaughter games only. And that you can't pass on it.
But have you tried the new Lost legacy?
How was it?

[Ralf]

I saw that you put in a taiga dedicated to slaughter games only. And that you can't pass on it.
But have you tried the new Lost legacy?
How was it?

I haven't tried it in Nic Fit to be honest.
But maybe I am wrong.

Obviously, one mana can be a matter of life or death.

I truly think that if your aim is to target combo decks, Lost Legacy might be the weapon we are looking for.
Unfortunately, I also want my extraction effects to be "live" against control or combo decks with permissions.

So I have elected (in Nic Fit) SLG instead of Lost Legacy.

Furthermore, if you take into account standard Nic Fit "velocity" we could make the following break down:

1) Being able to cast LL by T2
- You need DRS T1
- You need Vet T1 + Therapy T2 + 2 basic swamps (in your deck)
- You need creature T1 + tower T2

2) Being able to cast SLG by T3
- You need vet T1 + therapy T2
- You need Therapy T1 + GSZ T2
- You need Sakura T2
- You need creature T1 or T2 + Tower

This tells me that in my Nic Fit build, I have near the same odds to cast LL by T3 than SLG by T3 as I don't play DRS. Casting LL by T2 is pure luck.
Or in order to be able to cast LL by T2, you have to tweak your list.
I prefer standing by SLG to be honest.

[Brael]

1) Being able to cast LL by T2
- You need DRS T1
- You need Vet T1 + Therapy T2 + 2 basic swamps (in your deck)
- You need creature T1 + tower T2

2) Being able to cast SLG by T3
- You need vet T1 + therapy T2
- You need Therapy T1 + GSZ T2
- You need Sakura T2
- You need creature T1 or T2 + Tower

This tells me that in my Nic Fit build, I have near the same odds to cast LL by T3 than SLG by T3 as I don't play DRS. Casting LL by T2 is pure luck.
Or in order to be able to cast LL by T2, you have to tweak your list.
I prefer standing by SLG to be honest.

I don't think this table is quite accurate because your only red source is a Taiga, Vet and Sakura can't get it for you.

Red in this situation is harder to come across than double black, because you're likely looking at needing two fetchlands since one land must be a Taiga.

The comparison only works if you include a basic Mountain in the manabase.

That said, a T2 Lost Legacy requires generating 1BBB so it's not exactly realistic either.

[Ralf]

I don't think this table is quite accurate because your only red source is a Taiga, Vet and Sakura can't get it for you.

Red in this situation is harder to come across than double black, because you're likely looking at needing two fetchlands since one land must be a Taiga.

The comparison only works if you include a basic Mountain in the manabase.

That said, a T2 Lost Legacy requires generating 1BBB so it's not exactly realistic either.

That was a quick demonstration that didn't take into account mana issue/availability.

But to be more precise, I should have said with 1 fetch in hand.

Generally speaking you will almost always get the Taiga first (with your first fetch) against combo decks. 8 fetches -> 62 % to have 1 fetch in hand.
The same can be said about LL by T2. You should go bayou + scrub (or whatever combination of any dual land that produces at least B) and always leave 2 swamps in your deck if you try to go for a T2 LL.

Anyway, this was only to draw a general idea rather than pointing to perfect statistics.

[cherson]

@ Junk Control Fit:

This is where I am now:

1) I thought I could get away without SLG. I was wrong.
2) One should really test Nissa, Voice of Zendikar. She has won me many many games.
3) I have pondered for ages between Sakura / DRS or a mix of both. Finally, when you play bombs, you want mana. DRS is way to fragile and does not synergize well with Deed.
4) Liliana of the Veil is a hell of a card but Junk Fit, as it is, is not a really good home for her. If you want to play her, I advise you play some cards that synergize well with her (Lingering souls is a good example)
5) Sideboard is a dedication to what I am facing right now. The ability to go even bigger with Baneslayer post side solves numerous headaches
6) Don't ask, Miracle is still not a balanced MU...

My deck looks like this:


Creature (15)
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Meren of Clan Ne Toth
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Thragtusk
2x Tireless Tracker
4x Veteran Explorer

Enchantment (3)
3x Pernicious Deed

Land (21)
2x Bayou
2x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath

Artifact (3)
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Sorcery (10)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Painful Truths
1x Vindicate

Instant (6)
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Path to Exile

Planeswalker (2)
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad


Not quite sure abt meren and two trecker, but that guy is just awesome.
What exactly makes nissa that strong and how does she win u games compared to other walkers?
0/1 token doesn't seem that strong.

[Brael]

Settled on 75/76 slots for my upcoming 10 week league. The final question is over a Knight of the Reliquary, I have through tomorrow to finalize it. Despite knowing for certain that there's going to be a few combo decks, I'm choosing to ignore Lost Legacy and Slaughter Games, instead relying on the permission in all the other decks in the league to keep it in check. I hope it doesn't hurt me too bad.

Settled on no 3 drop removal spells, and cut a Deed with sweepers in the board if I need them. I'm pretty much all in on the CA plan with 22/61 cards in the deck being devoted to CA or CQ.

Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures 21
1 Endless One
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Dark Confidant
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Spells 13
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay

Enchantment 1
1 Pernicious Deed

Artifact 4
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard 16 (needs one cut)
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Shriekmaw
1 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed

Thoughts on the cut? I'm leaning towards Toxic Deluge but not yet certain. Or, is there anything major in this list that I'm missing? I know it's pretty non traditional but I want to see if the bias towards humans can pay off (I've certainly been going on about it long enough, this will be some good solid testing beyond a handful of games). I already know from previous versions that the low curve, ca, ramp combo works well to keep a lot of velocity going.

Maybe Engineered Explosives could be a good sweeper effect to pair with Bob? I've never really thought much about that card in Legacy, only Modern outside of partnering with Trinket Mage.

What exactly makes nissa that strong and how does she win u games compared to other walkers?
0/1 token doesn't seem that strong.

A 0/1 is plenty strong on a tick up. I would prefer Sorin, LoI in the slot because I like the lifelink but 3 CMC is a big deal. Making guys while growing loyalty is pretty solid. I do wonder if Liliana, the Last Hope wouldn't be better though. The +1 is very similar (+1 to negate 1 attacker), they both start at 3 and have a game winning ult at 7 with a mediocre -2.

[jbone2016]

Could you please be a little more specific when you have time ?

I've jammed some tests with the list.
Here are a few impressions:

1) Some starting hands are really awkward.
2) I did't like Meren (or maybe I didn't understand how to play it in the first place)
3) Sometimes attacking once with a sneaked Emmy isn't enough
4) Never felt like I needed Griselbrand. The only time I could have cast it, I was 1 black mana short...
5) The deck is playing too much with sorcery speed. This was bad against Infect (for example)
6) I felt I was lacking a tutor (wasn't playing sidisi though), there were a few games where I was sitting with an active sneak and no creature to be sneaked... -> cross point n°3.
7) I was not a fan of Tireless. Effect was powerful only once but slow as hell.
8) I somehow missed a "playable" & "zenithable" creature that could block opposing flying creatures. A one-of Ishkanah might do the trick.
9) 2 towers + primeval Titan is busted. Sneaking + recurring a Thragtusk made my day. There is maybe not enough creatures with an ETB trigger to abuse.
10) Stronghold doesn't get you to draw. A creature with a "draw" ETB trigger might be needed.

I'll try to tweak the list a bit next time.

1) I will agree to that. Depends on the matchup and what role we want to take while thinking over our hand.
2) Meren is very grindy. Many matchups I seem to take her out (same with nightmare)
3) More fatty boom booms needed? I always like a worldspine wurm myself
4) Never cast a griselbrand. I did however hardcast a rune scarred demon. That felt good.
5) Eh. 2 decays are pretty low. Board cards help (grip, sudden shock, night of souls' betrayal (maybe main for the last one) Blood moon isn't bad either.
6) empath and rune scarred seem like enough. intent seems like it could be cut.
7) Had success with him before wasn't revelant these matches, however.
8) Ishkanah seems reasonable, delirium seems within grasp at times
9) I wasn't a fan of primetime, so I cut it. Tusk and nightmare=fun times.
10) Wall of Blossoms?

Intent is probably coming out for the 4th sneak. Not sure about anything else yet. Of course, not sure when I will be able to test it again before Mil/Eternal/Baltimore.

[Echelon]

Concerning Woodland Bellower: Danger Of Cool Things. Consider what'd change if it were just another Fierce Empath.

That said, a T2 Lost Legacy requires generating 1BBB so it's not exactly realistic either.

The BB part isn't the problem, it's having 3 mana on T2. It forces you to have on of the following openings:
- T1: (fetch into) Bayou, GSZ for Arbor, T2: B producing land
- T1: Fetchland, DRS. T2: B producing land unless you got one on T1
- T1: The Cabal Therapy -> Veteran Explorer opening
- T1: The Veteran Explorer -> Phyrexian Tower opening
- T1: Fetch Dryad Arbor, T2 tap it & sac it to Phyrexian Tower (yes, it sucks, but it is a possibility)

[MD.Ghost]

Could you please be a little more specific when you have time ?

I've jammed some tests with the list.
Here are a few impressions:

1) Some starting hands are really awkward.
2) I did't like Meren (or maybe I didn't understand how to play it in the first place)
3) Sometimes attacking once with a sneaked Emmy isn't enough
4) Never felt like I needed Griselbrand. The only time I could have cast it, I was 1 black mana short...
5) The deck is playing too much with sorcery speed. This was bad against Infect (for example)
6) I felt I was lacking a tutor (wasn't playing sidisi though), there were a few games where I was sitting with an active sneak and no creature to be sneaked... -> cross point n°3.
7) I was not a fan of Tireless. Effect was powerful only once but slow as hell.
8) I somehow missed a "playable" & "zenithable" creature that could block opposing flying creatures. A one-of Ishkanah might do the trick.
9) 2 towers + primeval Titan is busted. Sneaking + recurring a Thragtusk made my day. There is maybe not enough creatures with an ETB trigger to abuse.
10) Stronghold doesn't get you to draw. A creature with a "draw" ETB trigger might be needed.

I'll try to tweak the list a bit next time.

I will also write it down for you (keep in mind i test Sneak Fit feat. Nahiri+PFire!) so you get a bunch of ideas from different users/builds (i always liked the teamwork here, it is not common in every thread)

1) yes but i feel it gets better if you a) lower the curve and/or b) play PFire as another card that can be cast turn 2 or if your manabase is under attack
2) Meren is here for the grind, but she has also a solid body to stop all the small legacy creatures and she will not die to decay/bolt. Note that she also act as "Eternal Witness" because she will bring back a creature card to your hand at the same turn she entered the battlefield. I only got her out together with Sneak Attack in one game, but that was really funny and i won that game easily. Overall i only tutored for her if i immediately needed a body and can't go up to Zenith for Tusk. I also play with Karakas as a little bonus point for Meren.
3) Right, that is also a reason i ultimate with Nahiri for Inferno Titan or Grisel
4) I tutored for Grisel if Emrakul isn't enough to steal the game. Drawing 7-14 cards is still bonkers and Grisel can still lead to a devastating teamup with Emrakul or any Titan. Gaining Life if you sneak in Grisel as a deadly blocker can also be relevant.
5) right - it is better if you also play with PFire and you can still grap Kolaghan's Command, Jund Charm etc.
6) That was the point for me to cut 1 Sneak and 1 Sidisi and go with 2 Nahiri and 3 Sneak; Nahiri might stretch the manabase but she works fine with Sneak-Concept, PFire, even with Meren if you discard a creature and she acts as removal if needed.
7) Yeah it was one cut i made for PFire because i can't imagine to durdle around with him or tutor him with Zenith (heck even Courser of Kruphix seems better here: blocks, ramps, gain life, work well with top)
8) Arbor Colossus if you need also a big beater that can also deal with gofy, angler, smasher and can destroy even big flyers like Emrakul etc. or Ishkanah, Grafwidow (sadly the missed "deathtouch" for her...) if you fear the GGG of Colossus. Ishkanah and Delirium seems manageable here (bonus points if you run also Nahiri + Karakas^^) If it is only for Delver(size-Creatures) Penumbra Spider is also good enough, especially if you can bring it back. You can always play Stingerfling Spider to shot something from the sky. Overall with PFire Flyers are easier to handle. If Meren doesn't make the cut for you she would be my first card to switch for a "reach" Creature.
9) Titan + 2 Towers are more or less a backup plan for me, most games i didn't need him but he also got stronger since i tinker with PFire(Groves) and Karakas (beating Show&Tell with Titan into Karakas feels really nice)
10) You still can spin Top for it, having Nahiri on the field can also help

[cherson]

A 0/1 is plenty strong on a tick up. I would prefer Sorin, LoI in the slot because I like the lifelink but 3 CMC is a big deal. Making guys while growing loyalty is pretty solid. I do wonder if Liliana, the Last Hope wouldn't be better though. The +1 is very similar (+1 to negate 1 attacker), they both start at 3 and have a game winning ult at 7 with a mediocre -2.

agree that 3cmc is a thing but for the moment I am not really convinced but have to admit that I didn't test it so far.
I don't agree on the game braking ult of liliana, we don't have zombies therefore we get max 2 x 2/2, right?
nissa ult is serious CA therefore I would use her over liliana last hope.

I am still considering liliana of the veil but your concerns are worth to consider.

[Navsi]

Concerning Woodland Bellower: Danger Of Cool Things. Consider what'd change if it were just another Fierce Empath.

At the moment, the list runs 4 fatties / Empath targets: 2 Titans, Griselbrand, Emrakul.

- Primeval and Inferno titan give us grinding power and removal, respectively, and can be hardcast.
- Griselbrand gives us game in situations where Emrakul isn't lethal, and can maybe be hardcast.
- Emrakul kills pretty much everyone.

I am saying we can potentially drop Griselbrand, since he's very hard to cast and in most situations is worse than Emrakul off Sneak Attack. He grinds well, but we only need to grind if we can't oneshot people.
Adding Bellower means we can sneak for Bellower -> Empath -> Emrakul and attack for 21, which means we don't need to grind games out as frequently due to higher oneshot potential.
Bellower is also better than Griselbrand without Sneak, since it's way more hardcastable and finds Witness (which is really handy) and Reclamation Sage (which can be awesome) as well as grinding by finding a Titan to drop next turn.

Running an additional Empath does the same thing, but:
- Casting it for a big monster means we don't have board presence until next turn, rather than having a 6/5 to hold the line for a turn.
- We don't get the oneshot potential with Emrakul
- We don't get Reclamation Sage utility as easily
- It's exactly the same with Sneak Attack active (assuming R is easier on our available lands than 2G)

Positives of Empath over Bellower:
- If we have a spare turn to cast empath, we can potentially drop a Titan one turn sooner if we're racing to cast Inferno vs. Elves or similar

I think it's worth testing at the very least.

[Echelon]

@Cherson: First you get 2 (0+2) zombies, then you get 4 (2+2). The turn after that you get another 8 (2+4+2), then another 16 (2+4+8+2) and so on and so on. The number of tokens you have on the field doubles every single turn. Your snowball quickly turns into an avalanche.

Nowhere on Liliana it says the Zombies in question can't be tokens .