I blame nedleeds for this. When reviewing Conspiracy 2 on Tusk Talk 10 he mentioned Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast could be played with Entomb and Goblin Welder & in last weeks Tusk Talk 13 he mentioned again playing him (I think in Vintage) and I got thinking there must be a shell which needed a win con in pure BR.
The obvious artifact based shell in BR is Painter Grindstone & wondered if it had been done before. I did some googling and found this - http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/br-painter/
Clearly this is a just an inferior Painter deck to the Mono R version but with a little tweaking this deck is a Welder control deck. I tweaked last week and came up with:
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Badlands
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Entomb
4 Goblin Welder
3 Great Furnace
3 Grindstone
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Mountain
3 Mox Opal
3 Painter's Servant
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Swamp
2 Vault of Whispers
2 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 Daretti, Scrap Servant
Sideboard
4 Blood Moon
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroclasm
1 Manic Vandal
1 Spellskite
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Kolaghan's Command
I will say the board is ropey as all hell, lets ignore that for now. I sleeved this up for our 18 man Legacy on Sunday, 5 rounds and went 3-2.
R1 - Ryan playing BUG Delver. I loaned Ryan this 75 so I'm pretty sure I know his list. He wins the roll, gets ahead G1 and rides 2 Goyfs to the win while I do nothing. G2 I board in and land a T2 Moon but he has got a T1 DRS so just grips it, Delvers and Goyfs beat me to death.
0-1
R2 - Brendan RG Combo lands - Loaned him this deck as well.... G1 I land ensnaring bridge which gives me plenty of time to assemble painter / stone. G2 we go to turns, I grind him out in T5 of 5 and he concedes to me at that point like a gentleman. Welder did massive work this game, I was able to contrive a board where my opp was forced to keep p-firing my new Darretti while I assembled mana with welder etc to land new old daretti, weld in the grindstone and activate it all on one turn around his wastelands / ghost quarters.
1-1
R3 - Luke on Merfolk - G1 therapy naming vial and see a force, I land then land a welder, Grindstone (countered), Painter, untap and weld in the stone and kill him, he was never in this game. G2 he mulls to 5? Opens on vial, I open on pithing needle, his next 3 draws are his remaining 3 vials..... needless to say I assemble the combo easily.
2-1
R4 - Platinum pro on Miracles - interested to play this, normally mono red painter has a fantastic miracles match up so am interested to play this. G1 I get ahead as he's stuck on 2 lands and assemble the combo with welder but he's managed to top deck the StP to stay alive, he assembles Jace to kill me. G2 I get surgical'd and snapcaster sugical'd, after some time he blows up my Ensnaring Bridge and kills me with 2 snapcasters.
2-2
R5- Ethan playing Sneak n Show - As I sit down I say I hope you're not on the Omni version, I cannot beat that which luckily he can't. G1 he T1 SnT -> Emrakul's. G2 we end up in a wrangled position where I have a welder and bridge in play & he has a Griselbrand but he's stone cold dead to the bridge so he scoops to G3 knowing he doesn't have a single way in his deck to avoid getting decked. G3 we end up in this complex situation were I have welder / stone / bridge on the table, I grind him & surgical Emrakul, he forces, I flip top to REB force. Winner! It did turn out after that he had surgical in hand and could have surgical and fail to find the remaining Emrakul.
3-2
So thoughts: This deck is a welder deck, not a Imperial Recruiter deck & I'll cut them for the future. I also want to up the artifact count for metal craft as I got stuck with useless mox opals a few times.
This is what I think I would run back:
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Badlands
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Entomb
4 Goblin Welder
3 Great Furnace
3 Grindstone
2 Mountain
3 Mox Opal
3 Painter's Servant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Swamp
2 Vault of Whispers
2 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 Daretti, Scrap Servant
-1 Jaya, Ballad
-4 Imperial Recruiter
5 Flex slots, a draw / discard would be nice? Faithless looting? Good artifacts? - Sundering Titan could be fun? Mindslaver? This is what I think we need help for?
Thoughts?
Suggestions from the cheap seats (Facebook chat)
Main deck
Mindslaver - Let's REALLY play that control lock
Sideboard
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Leyline of the Void - I REALLY like this one as it solves the Emrakul problem from SnT and Renaimator / Lands!
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Sundering Titan
1 Pithing Needle
4 other cards
Updated list from brainstorming in chat. sd_Matt - No I'm not splashing blue for Transmute Artifact!!
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Badlands
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Entomb
4 Goblin Welder
3 Great Furnace
2 Grindstone
2 Mountain
3 Mox Opal
3 Painter's Servant
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Swamp
2 Vault of Whispers
2 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 Daretti, Scrap Servant
3 Faithless Looting
1 Duplicant
Sideboard
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Duplicant
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thought seize
2 Sulfur Elemental
No joke. Jam 4 Smuggler's Copter. Card is so perfect for Painter decks. Gives your Painters something to do, puts stuff in the graveyard for your Welder when he isn't getting in the copter, and is actually pretty sweet with new Daretti since he's always got bots to crew it.Originally Posted by KIP_NZ
I think if we were a mono red painter deck you're onto something there but in this control shell I'm not sure we will be attacking much if at all?
Hi there, from cheaper seats (a busted Ikea couch). First off, thank you for delving into BR Painter with Daretti. I have been attempting to brew with the card and have not gotten particularly far. I am struggling to find the niche that Daretti 2 (Still Ready!) caters to. Daretti Two pumps out constructs and blows things up. Both noble pursuits, but these options don't lend themselves to a quick combo. The constructs buy time. Playing well with Therapy or Welder. So you're looking at a long game with a combo finish. How to get there?
The reliance on one drops rules out Chalice. But Trinisphere remains a serious lock piece. A contender if you're willing to devote more main deck slots to mana. Depending on your meta, it could be better than Chalice. (I would say that is true in mine, currently, your mileage may vary).
If you're looking for card draw, Smuggler's Copter could be just the janky option to pair with construct tokens. Or out of work Welders.
I assume Daretti is greedy. So why stop at a BR? Blue provides access to all sorts of nonsense like Intuition and Baleful Strix and Dack Fayden. White provides Nahiri, the Harbinger. And Nahiri's ultimate can search up either half of the combo. Green provides Loam to fill the graveyard for recurring with Welder and makes it easier to justify something like Punishing Fire for more creature control.
Edit: wow, I am slow. Totally beaten to the punch with the Copter suggestion. (and furthermore rejected!)
Thanks for the reply!
You sum it up perfectly in that I want to play a long game, much longer than mon-red or even shortcake painter normally play and yes Chalice is horrific, either from me or being cast against me. I've not faced it but the 3 Daretti's are there to get around that in that first can weld back in a countered Grindstone and the 2nd can just blow it up. Trinisphere is an interesting idea, I suspect I'd have to cut the Pyro / Red blasts for mana and slots to fit that in. Another idea was Winter Orb and weld it out for a full untap :D
Smugglers Copter, just really not a fan of that card on the surface in this deck to be honest? I'm unsure it would ever give me a win in a tight game? What would I cut?
Other colours: Matt suggested blue as well for Transmute and other effects, I think we're staying a bit far from our plan there? Green does give Ancient Grudge and Nature's Claim as options though!
Perhaps try a shell without painter grindstone just to see how it looks.
I'm thinking tanglewire, uba mask, smokestack, maybe some new pherxia sacrifice artifacts..
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You're playing 4 Welder and Entomb and no Myr Battleball or Sundering Titan. You want to beat Miracles everytime ... put a Sundering Titan on the battlefield. If you are committed to 4 Entombs I'd play way more one-of's. Like 1 Ensnaring Bridge, 1 3-Ball, 1 Sweeper somewhere (Keg, Ratchet). Then up your reanimation effects. Play 2 Reanimate for example. Also Cabal Therapy with only amazing creatures to sac is bad, you are basically never going to want to sac welder. I get that one of your two Daretti's make tokens but that seems like a reach. Maybe 1 Therapy to Entomb for and a bunch of Thoughtseizes, which dovetails into your couple of Reanimates.
Also who the fuck lets a Welder resolves but counters a Grindstone. Not sure that Merfolk win should even count.
Edit: Are you the one that calls decks, 'dicks'? Thanks.
Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast is a control card. Why are you building a combo deck around a control card?
I think you should go the lock/resource denial route. Just the basic stuff: Blood Moon, Trinisphere, Smokestack, Wasteland, Chalice of the Void, etc.
Once you get your opponent to stumble on mana and get a Daretti out, you'll win inevitably.
Someone else suggested cutting the painter / stone down to 1 of each & cutting the therapies as well to make it a pure control shell with a random combo-kill. I had a Titan in the board in a previous post, I'd really like to have it main for fun. I have legacy on Monday, I'll give it a crack.
Reanimate's a good idea, I considered Exhume in the board to play around Chalice 1 but think Reanimate main is just better.
Yes I'm the Lands / Shops player from New Zealand who uses vowels when speaking which you hear as Dicks :)
Yup I think the deck should hate and then have painter / stone as alt win con with Titan / Battlebot as the primary.
That's kind of taking it away from where I wanted to be. I'm a welder deck at heart, wire and smokestack don't play that great with welder.
Huh? They actually do, it forms the backbone of older 5c stax decks. You cast Wire, they get locked and you welder it out EOT. Makes multiple welders brutal. Granted there are things now that can just win when welder like titan or mindslaver.
I confirm. They play pretty well with Welder. At least Tangle Wire.
In theory I was always intrigued by Ichor Wellspring in a Welder theme, but in practice never liked it too much (probably cause I played no control). Maybe you have some luck with it in a control shell, it plays pretty well with both Darettis.
Will try your list!
Played this list a few games. Some random thoughts:
- Mox Opal is sometimes hard to activate.
- 2 Grindstone + 3 Painter's Servant is hard to assemble, even with Entomb.
- 19 lands are too few
- Thorn of Amethyst harms you more than your enemy (boarded in against UR Prowess)
- 6 red blasts often do nothing with only 3 Servants.
- 4 Entomb are too much and/or lack good targets. Only good with active Welder, else they do nothing.
- 3 Darettis are a bit random
I'd say: Choose one deck goal (combo or control) and focus on it, but don't make half combo (2 Grindstone only) with half control (random Darettis)
Yer I know, I guess I was thinking about more like Stax which just has the ability to out permanent the opponent rather than welding out the wire. Showing the fact that I skipped magic from 2002-2012 right there!
I've taken people's feedback on board and come up with a tweaked controlling shell which isn't a painter deck any more. Win cons are Painter / Stone for behind a bridge, looped titans will get there as well and the battlebot. I now have a bunch of fun-of's as Entomb targets, completely cut the REBs / Blasts & did think about Mindslaver or Thoughtsieze number 3 in the main. Did considor Koth of the Hammer as 3rd alternate win con......
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Great Furnace
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Vault of Whispers
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 Daretti, Scrap Savant
2 Dismember
1 Duplicant
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Entomb
3 Faithless Looting
4 Goblin Welder
1 Grindstone
3 Mox Opal
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Painter's Servant
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Reanimate
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sundering Titan
1 Tangle Wire
3 Thoughtseize
1 Trinisphere
Sideboard:
1 Duplicant
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sulfur Elemental
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Thoughtseize
Hey,
Thanks for the feedback! Comments here
- Mox Opal - have upped the Artifact count now, still considoring just chopping them for more lands
- Painter / Stone - Cut down to a single of each, they are now Alt Alt win con
- Lands - I was wondering this too, maybe cut the opals in favor?
- Thorns - I was thinking they were for the storm match ups
- Blasts - Agreed, they're gone now
- Entomb - See new list?
- Daretti - Yup
- Focus - Yes new list is much more control focused with an Alt win of combo
Update: I've come the conclusion I don't like 2 Dismembers main deck. I feel they should be Kolaghan's Commands as the creature I most want to kill is Containment Priest (likely post board), getting a countered Welder back is good, discarding an artifact to welder in is good and destroying troublesome artifacts like Cage / Null rod is good.
Problem is, I don't own any and neither does my LGS!
K-Command is pretty much always a good card, I've played it in Asmadi, Dega and Tezzerator. Really smashes DNT, it's almost always Shatter/Shock.
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