This tracks with my experiences as well, and I think a big weakness of the deck is that it doesn't mulligan well because you need so many cards to combo out fast around hate. How you respond depends on what kind of hate you expect to see turn 1 (or even turn 0). Remember that they know you have a Chancellor and can play around it:Originally Posted by TokenMaster
Chancellor protects against: T1 Grafdigger's Cage, T1 Relic of Progenitus, T1 Deathrite Shaman, counters IF your opponent has already tapped out, T2 Chalice of the Void (even if they stick this, you can play around it with Collective Brutality/Exhume).
Chancellor doesn't protect against: Tormod's Crypt, Surgical Extraction, Leyline of the Void
Surgical Extraction is by far the most problematic, as it's non-permanent based and easy to play around a Chancellor. If you see a lot of artifact-based hate, Ingot Chewer may be the best solution, as both Wear//Tear and Abrupt Decay cost one more mana.
(Alternately, there's the "so crazy it just might work" approach of Ground Seal/Exhume)
I'll caveat all of this by saying I only have around 50 league matches with this deck, and 4 in person matches, but I'm well above 50% Match Win over the small sample size.
This is true to some extent, but I will say that I have kept a surprising number of mulls to 5 with protection and a turn 1 combo.
Swamp | Dark Ritual | Entomb | Thoughtseize | Reanimate
Fetch | Chancellor | Faithless Looting | Reanimate | Lotus Petal
I have found that by mulliganing aggressively, I get rewarded with a hand that can win more often than I get shafted and have to keep 3 lands and a dark ritual. If you're going to play this deck, I think you have to embrace the aggressive mulliganing, and take the games where you get blown out in line with the games where you have a stupidly good hand on a mull to 5. If that doesn't sound like your cup of tea, I think there's a Reanimator build with Brainstorm that might be more up your alley.
I've been thinkning of the white splash. Some options that came to mind:
SB: Resilience
1x Engeneered Explosives
2x Collective Brutallity
4x Wear // Tear
4x Sneak Attack
2x Massacre
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: Transform A
4x Dark Confidant
3x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Batterskull
3x Wear // Tear
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Swords to Plowshares
SB: Transform B (requires Cabal Therapy in the MB)
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Dark Confidant
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Monastery Mentor
"Ach! Hans, run! It's the Lhurgoat!"
I could see this if you were on the thoughtseize/unmask list, I was debating doing this instead (cabal therapy), requires a bit more knowledge to play right, but it is more powerful than thoughtseize. I am also a fan of the white sideboard as it is cheaper than sneak attack plan.
I think I would transform a bit different though, 4x pyromancer, 4x sword to plow, and the rest of your board can still reanimates/wear//tears etc, Mentors seem better if your just switching to the beat down path. Both feel like your just abandoning the decks main plan and becoming a worse other deck, so I don't know if either is good, but defiantly fun/maybe catches people off guard. and you can do something like sideboard/unsideboard for game 3
P.S you could just have done rabblemaster here and removed a white requirement..
As far as green sideboard, I saw someone else playing with Krosan Grip, think I might like that better than the other options and I am going to test. It is not as narrow as some of the other options, and unlike Wear//Tear protects itself, a counterspell on your wear//tear when your locked keeps you out of the game #feelsbad.
I don't know why everyone wants to board in Sneak Attack. The card feels super slow and super mediocre. If you board in a playset of Wear//Tear you should be able to deal with most of the hate. I would replace the Sneak Attacks with Stronghold Gambit. That card is winning some matchups single-handedly. Other than that I really like this sideboard package. Personally, I would play Pithing Needle over Massacre but that's really just my personal preference.
The thing is, with Wear//Tear you can T1 destroy the enemy Leyline, while with Krosan Grip you have to get two more mana which I think is not acceptable given the fact that you want to go off as soon as possible.
I like Massacre better as DnT can prove more than just difficult G2/3 and it's also hard castable with Dark Ritual. The same is true for Sneak Attack, I play Petals, Monkeys and Dark Rituals, how is it slow? You can't Gambit against DnT, Delver, Elves, Merfolk, Eldrazi, MUD, Shardless, the list goes on. Gambit requires discard as backup to be effective, whereas Sneak Attack can be played and then be ridden to victory, even if you have to wait a couple turns to get full value of it. Have you actually played Sneak Attack in this deck? The card has a huge impact, especially if you land a Griselbrand EoT and get to untap with red sources and live draws off him.
"Ach! Hans, run! It's the Lhurgoat!"
It's especially bad in a deck where you only have 4 targets worth Sneaking
Grip is also basically never destroying a thorn of amethyst
About to go live on Erin Campbell's stream!
www.twitch.tv/originaloestrus
If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage
My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.
I am the Legacy metagame:
-2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
-2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
-Refiner of Hogaak Depths.
And this is why I run 1 Ashen Rider in my main and 1-2 more in the sideboard
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OK, so now you have 7 targets. You draw one of the ashen riders, you sneak attack it, you exile two of their permanents, they're at 15 life and you have no cards in hand. No brainstorms, ponders, preordains, etc to help you find more. So you draw go for a while. You draw another ashen rider, sneak it, exile two more permanents, take them to 10? Wheee?
You have to draw the Griselbrand to win.
Great job, really enjoyed it. Helped me learn how to play the deck better as well and when to mulligan.
I still think Sire is better than Jin thobut to each their own.
Great stuff, Solver! Also, the end of match 3 was hilarious
Gambit requires you to not be vs a person with creatures or forces you to have the discard to strip all creatures first before using gambit, Sneak attack requires your fast mana/ maybe a turn/2 of speed. I normally run sneak attack, as gambit is just useless in my meta, Maybe if I was back on the 4 unmask/4 Ts instead of 4 unmask/4 SSG
As far as thorn, it has never been a issue to work around thorn, the Grip was a alternative to abrupt decay to reduce sideboard slots (wasn't in my deck) im testing it tonight at the shop we will see how it plays.
Just posted this to mtgLegacy on Reddit, but thought it was worth putting here as well to generate some discussion. Copy/paste follows:
Hello all! I've been testing BR Reanimator online for a bit while I build it in paper, and have been at a bit of a loss on how to build my sideboard. There are lots of different options, very little consensus, and I only have so much time to test, so testing each configuration against a gauntlet isn't feasible. Instead, I've created an excel file listing all the hate card/problem cards for the deck that I could find being played in top 15 or so Legacy decks, along with cards or play patterns to beat them.
I don't think this is revolutionary information by any means; given enough time most pilots could come to these same conclusions, but I thought having it all in one place could be a great help. With all the problem cards and their countermeasures listed against each other, it becomes easier to identify which cards have more cross application, which ones don't really pull their weight, etc.
To make a long story short, I'd love to generate some discussion on other people's interpretation of this table. I'll leave out my own conclusions for now to avoid starting up the thread with a bias. Given all this information, what stands out to you as the best cards to have in your sideboard, the best anti-hate, the optimal splash color (or lack thereof)?
A quick note on reading the document: Turn # means on which turn this card can interact with Reanimator. For example, Leyline of the Void and Force of Will can interact on turn 0 (i.e. before opponent takes his first turn), Grafdigger's Cage interacts on turn 1, and Deathrite Shaman on turn 2 (it comes down on turn 1 but can't prevent Reanimator from doing its thing until the next turn)
Avg Qty is the number of copies typically played in decks featuring the card in question. I'm not considering for example that non-blue decks don't play Force of Will. Decks playing Force of Will usually pack 4 copies, so the number shown is 4.
For each hate card, I've ordered (top to bottom) the countermeasures in the order I feel they are best at fighting that particular card. This is of course my opinion and is debatable, and in some cases the order is interchangeable (i.e. Wear//Tear and Abrupt Decay are equally good vs. Grafdigger's Cage), but it made the most sense to me to list the best solutions first and go down from there.
So that's it, hope you guys find this helpful and that it sparks discussion which will help cement a "best" build of BR Reanimator in the future.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1657167404
TL:DR - I made a table with all the problem cards BR Reanimator has to fight through and the means to beat them. The goal is to determine which cards are and aren't good enough to be in the deck going forward. Discuss and enjoy!
In many of the cards that you discussed (Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog) you are missing key interactions/plays with Exhume + Entomb that are discussed on the primer - see the OP.
In other notes, testing has eliminated the following cards for sideboard slot contention against Grixis Delver:
Bitterblossom
Grim Lavamancer
Blood Moon (kind of, could still be playable?)
This leaves Pack Rat and Phyrexian Obliterator on the table right now.
If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage
My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.
I am the Legacy metagame:
-2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
-2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
-Refiner of Hogaak Depths.
I didn't see what this was referencing?Which key interactions are you referring to? I even searched for "Crypt", "Bog" and "Exhume" and didn't find the relevant piece.
Pack Rat is pretty interesting, have you had any success with this?In other notes, testing has eliminated the following cards for sideboard slot contention against Grixis Delver:
Bitterblossom
Grim Lavamancer
Blood Moon (kind of, could still be playable?)
This leaves Pack Rat and Phyrexian Obliterator on the table right now.
Hmmm. That awkward moment when the primer doesn't have the stuff you expect it does.
If opponent plays a one-shot grave hate card such as Nihil Spellbomb, Relic, Tormod's Crypt, Bog, etc. :
1) Put a creature in the graveyard (ideally good enough but NOT the "optimal" card)
2) Cast Exhume. Opponent will use their card if they are scared of your creature.
3) Cast Entomb with the Exhume still on the stack and put the optimal creature in your graveyard.
4) Let Exhume resolve.
5) Profit!
Adding the above section to the primer. I apologize that this information was not readily available already.
I've had some testing done with Pack Rat but in the wrong matchups. I haven't played Pack Rat vs Grixis Delver yet.
If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage
My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.
I am the Legacy metagame:
-2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
-2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
-Refiner of Hogaak Depths.
This is worded a little wonky. You need to allow for the Relic or Crypt to resolve, so that the Entomb target doesn't get swept away by the Crypt.
So, it would be as follows:
1) Have creature in GY
2) Cast Exhume
3) Opponent pops Relic, allow this to resolve removing your GY
4) Cast Entomb with Exhume still on the stack
5) Exhume resolves
6) Win game
My appologies if it was obvious to everyone else, but I kept reading this as "cast Entomb in response to the Relic", which would just put another target in your GY for the Relic/Crypt to eat.
Otherwise, this is a great suggestion! I honestly never really thought of using Entomb in such a way with Exhume already on the stack and a hate card that eats your entire GY already into play.
EDIT: As another note, if your going to Entomb a creature with Exhume already on the stack, make sure you do so BEFORE you pass priority to your opponent. If you pass priority and your opponent doesn't react to it, you lose your chance to cast Entomb as Exhume will simply resolve after both players pass priority with it on the stack. Hope that makes sense.
I tested Obliterator quite a bit last night against 4C delver, but it was bug delver splashing red instead of grixis splashing green, so he had goyfs and much more ready access to green mana for deathrite instead of pyromancers. Obliterator was incredibly underwhelming. I actually traded my obliterator for a goyf and all of his other permanents at one point and he still won. Between Animate Dead and Lotus Petal, it's hard to keep goyf off of 5/6, which really hurt the obliterator plan.
On the other hand, I really liked Blood Moon there. One blood moon that resolves can turn off all future deathrites, and while you can still lose after that happens, I found that in games where I drew my sideboard option, the blood moon had the biggest impact on the game.
I also tested 3 decays and 2 brutalities, as well as a few lilianas of the veil. Liliana was neat, but ultimately just didn't do enough to justify the 3CMC price tag. At the moment I'm toying around with a version that sides in 3 blood moon and 2 simian spirit guides to try to push them out a little faster. That matchup ends up being about mana a lot of the time, so having the ability to pay for daze or pierce with monkey could be good. Still testing, not sure.
I tested Pack Rat several times and was never in love with him. Against grixis in particularly they're usually leaving in a few bolts, and I've had my pack rat bolted which sucks. For the most part it just takes too much mana. I had a lot of opportunities to play an early pack rat but no guarantee that I'd have 3 mana every turn for the rest of the game.
Thanks for pointing that out, I hadn't thought of it, I'll add it in. It definitely seems like the "best" response to that type of hate, but needing the exact right circumstances (fatty in gy, entomb+exhume in hand) makes it seem like it unfortunately might not come up that often.
I've seen the Pack Rat idea floating around this thread, but did not add it because I haven't seen any results posted yet (although it's entirely possible I missed a post). I'll definitely add it if it turns out to be good. Based purely on theorycrafting though, I don't think it'll be that great. If you manage to get the ball rolling I'm sure it'll be excellent, but 3 mana to activate is a lot, so I'm unsure this get out of control as often as we'd like it to.
Obliterator is something I've considered although I haven't actually tried it yet. My main concerns are a) Dismember (although this is often just a 1-of, so probably not a deal breaker) and more importantly b) resolving a 4 mana spell vs Daze/Force of Will. If it lands though, it probably wins the game on its own more often than not, so it seems like it has a lot of potential.
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