I attribute it to AnziD, although it's possible someone else might have tested it earlier. I haven't been closely following the development of Miracles, but in theory, the increased prevalence of BUG-style decks leading up to and after GP Louisville meant that Counterbalance became less important, while card selection and quantity became more important to compensate. In theory, this also hurts a lot of matchups where Counterbalance shines but card advantage isn't necessarily important (such as Burn), but I haven't played enough Miracles since to have concrete data to support this hypothesis.Originally Posted by phg22
MTGO Challenge top 16 lists posted:
Interesting facts about the four(!) miracles:
13 predicts: 3 by Mzfroste, Truckis and Uga, 4 by Alakazimdk, playing Rover Miracles (AnziD).
8 Entreat the Angels in the md, 0 mentor in the maindeck.
This is really interesting.
From my point of view mentor seems an unbeatable card, but the higher number of predicts probably makes setting up an entreat a lot easier, while also milling some of the redundancy (often a second top, thus making mentor less strong).
I would really like to read the opinion of those who are playing more predicts for some time, especially Anuraag because he is now playing mentor too.
Trolling aside, the reason that 4 Predict is showing up more and more, or 3 Predict etc, is that the metagame is at a position where a slow, grindy control deck can flourish. This is why you see folks like Angelo, who previously did not see the merit of the card, including 3 copies in his own lists. We simply have more time to convert them now. Anuraag has been playing and tuning 4 Predict since last November, and we're finally in a place where the printing of powerful 3 drops in Leovold, the re-awakening of TNN, etc allow us to have time to setup forever and go over the top of these things.
The big difference you see in this type of list compared to other, more 2 Predict w/ some x Mentor EtA JTMS type main decks is that 4 Predicts acts as an engine, similar to how we view CounterTop or CantripTop.
A good comparison is the Sphinx's Revelation-era of standard in that, when the card was first involved within the scene, it was seen in play as a 2-3 of, and the deck wasn't really designed to abuse it. It had a multitude of other ways to win the game, sometimes Restoration Angel, sometimes Geist of Saint Traft, etc, and was mostly utilized in a Midrange-Control game plan. Fast forward about a year, and we're in M15 standard, where Sphinx's Revelation is now a control deck that has very very few win conditions and it utilized a win condition that was extremely difficult to interact with: Elixir of Immortality and Aetherling. This is more similar to these 3-4 Predict builds, where they chain the game forever into an unbeatable and uninteractable win condition that you can defend with all the card advantage you generated as the game progressed.
The most elegant part of this is that your opponent will be left with do nothing cards, like Decay, Jitte, Fatal Push, Leovold, etc, when you "turn the corner" so to speak, because they've been ground down to nothing. If you one for one forever, then chain together 2 for 1's, you're going to be so far ahead that the lethal entreat will just be far too powerful.
Entreat is used over mentor in this case because Entreat allows you to invalidate and ignore your opponent's interaction much more easily than mentor. Mentor is still a target for removal, but you'll usually have enough fuel via Predict to not care, but the real difference is the sheer time, mana investment, and sorcery-speed of Mentor. We don't necessarily need the card (some builds still play them ofc) because our game 1 game plan isn't to grind forever, which Mentor is very adept at doing, but to grind just long enough to not lose right before we blow our opponent out. I would recommend watching some of Anuraag's youtube videos, as they showcase a LOT of how the deck plays out. You can find his youtube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsk...WikZYKemXqxCSw
P.S. Anuraag just tried 1 Mentor last night, wasn't the biggest fan of it, and would rather have just played FtA instead over it, which was the slot it was competing for.
Tl;DR: 4 Predict grinds long enough to win the game, EtA is better at ignoring opponent, Mentor takes longer to grind out the game, but can have more early interaction and less clunky cards in the early game.
P.P.S. I'm in the midst of working on a heavy 3-4 Predict and 4 mentor shell with the goal of trying it as a parallel approach to the 4 Predict EtA shells. It'll be more overall difficult to grind with grindy decks, since you'll be interacting more, but perhaps as the metagame shifts to punish the more midrange-y aspects, this variant can be capitalized on by having a more streamlined early game. I don't think it'll be better than the 4 Predict EtA Shells, and perhaps Mentor SB like MzFroste is a good enough middle ground, but I'm bored and have useless brain energy that would otherwise go to waste =P
In other news, ALAKAZIMDK had a Blessed Alliance in his sideboard for the Legacy Challenge
Friend of mine, it's a pet card of his =P he didn't board it in at all during the challenge =P
Its really cool seeing Predicts crop up. As many of you know CounterTop NLU originated from a RUG Threshold deck which had 4x Predicts in the deck which was later adopted by CounterTop UW Control decks.
Just wanted to chime in for the sake of appreciating this build of Miracles.
I guess the only useful input I have here is that Predicts are obviously helpful with balancing land drops and finding gas. Just think of them as Divinations in the old UW Sphinx's Revelation deck Cuneo pioneered in RtR/Theros standard. Realistically I can see this deck cutting down to 2 Predicts and replacing the other two cards with various tech cards. This version of Miracles feels too level zero to me and will obviously develop as follows, much like the old Cuneo deck which eventually cut a Divination or two sometime later.
We have actually been jamming Predict for many months now =P and one of our friends came into the finals of GP Prague with it, here's the origin: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post921438
I think Tholance's list is very refined in general, outside of the context of the meta. It's what I would expect a perfect "stock" list would look like despite the lack in "discipline" with the 2/1 split of Mentors/EtA, the 2 Predicts and whatnot. Having a package that durdles through the whole deck does wonders with a lack of discipline in true turbo xerox-style.
I'm in the process of building Miracles but am unsure whether I should begin practicing Tholance's list or the pure Predict lists.
My Legacy background is CounterTop Goyf and 3x EE Cunning Wish Landstill before I had quit awhile back.
I'd start with a regular 3-4 Ponder list and then decide whether or not you want to go the Predict route from there.
The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.
Been playing Legend Miracles since I bought into the format about 2 years ago. Played 3 Ponder and 2 Predict tonight and it felt great, wanted more predicts actually. Still see ponder as a necessary evil.
Hei guys
I played some matches against shardless bug won some and lost also some matches..
How do you board against them? What do you think it's important against them.. i really like the 3 Pyro and 1 blast and the 2 wear/tear. I also board in 2 fluster for counter a hymn or win the counter war for terminus or a planeswalker..but still unsure.. also the clique feel like a overboarding.
Whats important in this match up?
Yesterday i did a mull to 6 on the play and cast a top.. he fows it..in thin match top fees way morw important to hit the lands specially in g1. Would you fow back?
Hoping for some nice answers and feedback
Greets Pascal
http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/...-a-new-miracle
OUT: 4 Force of Will, 4 Counterbalance
IN: 3 Pyroblast, 2 Wear // Tear, 3 Vendilion Clique
The article might be slightly outdated, but the theme is still the same, you need to either keep up with CA or stop BUG from out-CA you.
Revelation was an X spell that snowballed off hitting land drops; you can't really compare draw-go decks to Miracles. Miracles is fundamentally a prison deck, and I think Predict is just a good card, similar to Snapcaster. It doesn't work well with the miracles or the Counterbalance lock, and generally got cut from Miracles lists until recently when people started axing Jace. I love the card, and bought a playset of foils 3 years back, but I think people are getting to hyped about...Divination.
The card doesn't amplify any of the decks synergies...except for helping to chain draw spells with Monaster Mentory versions. I think if 4x Predict revolutionizes something, it'll be that 4x Mentor cantrip version.
False. While CB + Top has a prison element to it, to say that it makes Miracles "fundamentally" a prison deck is a huge exaggeration. The 4-Predict style list I play runs more along the lines of a "UW Jund Flash" build that uses Predict, Snapcaster, Terminus, etc to create incremental advantage that snowballs into a win. I think prior iterations of Miracles were much more heavily focused on the lock as the primary game plan or point of interaction. While in certain matchups, yes, that is what the 4 Predict list still does, in many more it doesn't/doesn't have to. For example, in a lot of conventional matchups where CB is good, I have tested lots of successful sideboard configurations that involve taking CB out (ex. Elves, Grixis Delver). And while Predict *might* not be optimal if your game plan a majority of the time is to lock your opponent out, the problem is CB is no longer immune as it once used to be as other decks have definitely adapted (for example, last night vs Julian he cast not 1, not 2, but 3 god damn Winter Orbs against me in the same game - which I blame Joe for). This makes the CB plan a much higher risk higher reward plan, something I prefer to avoid if possible. What's my solution? Just draw cards. Yes, the effect is a lot more anemic, but I think that's only on the surface. Also I'd like to point out that the card is not "just" Divination. When R&D created Divination they set a baseline. They said, "If you want to draw two cards, you have to pay three mana on your turn. That's the best you'll get.". Predict (with vision) completely and utterly destroys these restraints, so I would like to say the card can be "broken". The reason its not good is because most decks cannot sustain the cost of the card. UW Flash Jund... that just sounds sexy.
@Cipher: Predict solves one of the issues Miracles used to have with being ground out and not having a lock. I think you're really underestimating how much a Predict and a Top let you see in a single turn cycle. Seeing 3, milling the worst one, drawing two, seeing 3, drawing, and seeing another card is a lot of your deck. Throw in a fetch and suddenly your selection and advantage are just overwhelming, and this is all without CB.
Absolutely. The card is rather unassuming, but ridiculously powerful in the deck.
Well you all basically agreed with what I said, even if you're defending a card I said was good in the first place. As you pointed out, Miracles was a prison deck until the constant power creep eventually made creature decks the majority of the format. Now you've got a ton of matchups where you can't lock your opponent out reliably. I personally would rather just add lock pieces that are better against all these Delver decks (Venser, Clique, etc.), but obviously just trading spells for first Ponders and now Predicts has been putting up the best results.
I think Predict is powerful enough to make the cut, but it's definitely brute forcing it's way into a style of deck where it doesn't really fit in. I've went back and forth with the card over the years, and when I'm not running them it's because it feel like the cards in this deck are better off on top of your deck...which sounds strange when I say it out loud. Some cards like the miracles and redundant combo pieces will make for some awkward draw spells. Braun Duin called Predict a mini Dig Through Time once and I think he was right. Dig was also awkward in a prison deck but strong enough to just jam anyway. Not that the power levels are comparable; I'm just referring to the nature of the cards.
Calling it Divination was obviously an understatement. My bad on the exaggeration...
Am I just completely misunderstanding your point, or are you saying Legendary Miracles is stronger against Delver decks than 'regular' Miracles versions are?I personally would rather just add lock pieces that are better against all these Delver decks (Venser, Clique, etc.) [...]
Yeah, I suppose I really mean Shardless and the more grindy midrange decks, not Delver per se. Seeing people talk about being grinded-out made me think of those decks even while I wrote "Delver".
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