[Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)

[Zinch]

Can anybody give me a nice list atm?(mono blue :P)

thanks, Maarten

Here you have 39...

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?ty...&format=Legacy

[Yan]

Hi!

I've been playing solidarity for long time and been reading these forums for almost as long. I had some problems with my account but now that I finally got it, I might aswell just post something... and it has been pretty quiet in here

So I have been testing quite alot and came to a few conclusions, but...always the list first:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
12 Island

4 Reset
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Remand
3 Turnabout
3 Opt
1 Peek
2 Spell Snare
2 Twincast
2 Brain Freeze

SB atm:

1 Stroke of Genius
1 Rebuild
2 Hydroblast
3 Wipeaway
3 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
1 Flash of Insight
1 Brainfreeze
2 Spell Snare

The first major difference between most of lists is the lack of Flash of Insight. I truly tested it alot but usually I just wasn't happy to draw it, ever. It has it's merits though so I play one in the SB so I can bring it in against slower decks. In my opinion it is just too slow for todays meta game.

Some have played and praised Cryptic Command, I'm not one of them. ...well, I did test with them but they also felt too slow. And I think that it is wrong to say that it can reliably bounce counterbalance. It is true that they can't counter it with counter balance, but hey, they have about 10 other counters too so don't expect them to let it through. Wipe Away and Grosan Grip are probably the only reliable ways to get rid of the balance. And countering it with Spell Snare is an option too, atleast it will eat one of their counters.

I have always liked Twincast because, like some have said, it is some kind of joker. And twincasting meditate is just sick card advantage, and after that got through, I have never lost.

Then there is no turnabout in the SB but honestly, I never sided it in or wished for it, NEVER. So I thought that why would I keep there if never used it... I could aswell have my foil one with nothing there, atleast it would look cooler...

Some might considet me as a heretic because of not plaing flash of insight but at least it have worked for me so I quess I just wanted to point out that the if someone doesn't like flash, the deck can be well playd without it too :)
Honestly, if there's some trick with it that I don't know of, I'm open for it. The "brain freeze yourself and arrange the rest of your library" is just too damn slow and you probably would have won anyway at that point. Usually flash just sit in my hand without no way of discarding it.

I have tournament coming soon and I might play solidarity there, if I do, I report the results.

[Bahamuth]

Hi!

I've been playing solidarity for long time and been reading these forums for almost as long. I had some problems with my account but now that I finally got it, I might aswell just post something... and it has been pretty quiet in here

So I have been testing quite alot and came to a few conclusions, but...always the list first:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
12 Island

4 Reset
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Remand
3 Turnabout
3 Opt
1 Peek
2 Spell Snare
2 Twincast
2 Brain Freeze

SB atm:

1 Stroke of Genius
1 Rebuild
2 Hydroblast
3 Wipeaway
3 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
1 Flash of Insight
1 Brainfreeze
2 Spell Snare

The first major difference between most of lists is the lack of Flash of Insight. I truly tested it alot but usually I just wasn't happy to draw it, ever. It has it's merits though so I play one in the SB so I can bring it in against slower decks. In my opinion it is just too slow for todays meta game.

Some have played and praised Cryptic Command, I'm not one of them. ...well, I did test with them but they also felt too slow. And I think that it is wrong to say that it can reliably bounce counterbalance. It is true that they can't counter it with counter balance, but hey, they have about 10 other counters too so don't expect them to let it through. Wipe Away and Grosan Grip are probably the only reliable ways to get rid of the balance. And countering it with Spell Snare is an option too, atleast it will eat one of their counters.

I have always liked Twincast because, like some have said, it is some kind of joker. And twincasting meditate is just sick card advantage, and after that got through, I have never lost.

Then there is no turnabout in the SB but honestly, I never sided it in or wished for it, NEVER. So I thought that why would I keep there if never used it... I could aswell have my foil one with nothing there, atleast it would look cooler...

Some might considet me as a heretic because of not plaing flash of insight but at least it have worked for me so I quess I just wanted to point out that the if someone doesn't like flash, the deck can be well playd without it too :)
Honestly, if there's some trick with it that I don't know of, I'm open for it. The "brain freeze yourself and arrange the rest of your library" is just too damn slow and you probably would have won anyway at that point. Usually flash just sit in my hand without no way of discarding it.

I have tournament coming soon and I might play solidarity there, if I do, I report the results.

The reason why people like Cryptic Command is the versatility it offers. The most important factor is that it is, unlike Spell Snare, not completely dead in mid combo, and can actually be quite important there. Spell Snare is completely dead in mid combo, but also if you draw one after the CB hits.

I love Flash of Insight, but I do agree it sucks against some decks. I really can't imagine you hated drawing it every time you did though. The card shines in Thresh matchups or against any control deck. I also quite often manage to play it in any matchup where I need to be a bit faster. Adding the Brain Freeze synergy (which i use quite a lot (be sure to remember the bottom cards with Impulse/earlier Flashes)) makes it irreplaceable for me.

I like my Turnabout sideboard, and I wish for it quite a lot. If you don't play it, why won't you put an extra one in the mainboard?

[Pelikanudo]

Question: will 4 pact of negation in side will help to handle those 3shold decks?
Has anybody tryed them ?
I think that if we have a posted list like this we can easily win whatever 3shold match up( balanced, tempo, etc):

4 Tides
4 resets
3 turnabout
3 meditate

4 FoW
4 pacts
4 snares

4 brainstorm
2 brainfreeze
4 opt
2 cunnin wish
2 wipeaway
2 Flash of insitgh // in here maybe the impulse could be an option

18 lands

No remand or Impulses all of them sided out
Ideas, Suggestions, Onions?

[Zinch]

I think that without impulses you won't find tides reliably...
And without remands, you need a storm of 16-18, an extremely hard thing to accomplish against thresh, the match up you are trying to improve...
This, and the large number of useless cards midcombo makes this list very, very unreliable.

[Bahamuth]

Also, that list has no reliable answers against CB.

[Zinch]

Also, that list has no reliable answers against CB.

Well, I'm not defending that list, but if a thing a deck with 4 spell snares, 4 fows, 2 wipe away and 2 cunning wishes can do is answer a counterbalance.
But I believe that this deck cannot afford to play all of this cards only to answer one card...

[Omega]

CB is probably the main reason why Solidarity is no longer a tier deck. If you can't get rid of CB, you probably are not going to win the game, so i think it is not overkill to dedicate so much slots against that card. Solidarity is Control/Combo after all.

Robert

[Yan]

Spell Snare is dead mid combo, yes. And it can't answers a resolved CB. These are both true but I wasn't saying that it is there entirely against CB. Counterbalance is not the only thing that costs two And honestly, if you have time to use Cryptic Command, you probably would have won anyway. It is just 1 mana too expensive.

Everytime that I had cryotic command against balanced thresh, and tried to remove balance with it, they had at least two counters against it, it is not realistic to think that they can't counter it. It is truly versatile but I think that it is only good on paper. It is only good in late game but we won't be able to get there with early game "dead cards." I think that we have to take in to consideration that the format is really fast nowadays, we just don't have time to do all those cool and expensive things. Same goes IMO for the flash of insight. Mid combo, twincasting a meditate is just as good or even better.
Flash is good against control decks but aren't those good match upps anyway, even without it? With twincast, comboing on turn 4 just becomes more reliable.

7 untap effect seems to be enough for me MD, but if I regret removing turnabout from the SB even once, it goes back in right away

[Shimster]

And honestly, if you have time to use Cryptic Command, you probably would have won anyway. It is just 1 mana too expensive.

Everytime that I had cryotic command against balanced thresh, and tried to remove balance with it, they had at least two counters against it, it is not realistic to think that they can't counter it.

Wrong. Absolutely wrong. Balanced Thresh (at least good lists) uses 4 Daze, 4 Force of Will and 3 to 4 Counterbalance as its countersuit. You only have to worry about the Forces, as you can play around Daze easily.

Against fast aggro, you can often win by using your Turnabouts to generate mana and using Cryptic Command to fog your opponents creatures. Without Cryptic Command, I would have lost several matches against Goblins (as they tend to win on turn 4 while on the play).

Cryptic Command is not slow. And yes, you are going to win, if it resolves targeting Counterbalance. But that's the reason, Simon, Rob and me are running it.

/edit:

btw., did you play Solidarity competitively? Flash of Insight says "OMNOMNOM, eat instants, SYNERGY!" You often can't win without Flash of Insight (e.g. you played Stroke of Genius to draw cards but you have to win NOW). If you cut it, you can cut Cunning Wish in the same breath.

[Yan]

Wrong. Absolutely wrong. Balanced Thresh (at least good lists) uses 4 Daze, 4 Force of Will and 3 to 4 Counterbalance as its countersuit. You only have to worry about the Forces, as you can play around Daze easily.

Against fast aggro, you can often win by using your Turnabouts to generate mana and using Cryptic Command to fog your opponents creatures. Without Cryptic Command, I would have lost several matches against Goblins (as they tend to win on turn 4 while on the play).

Cryptic Command is not slow. And yes, you are going to win, if it resolves targeting Counterbalance. But that's the reason, Simon, Rob and me are running it.

/edit:

btw., did you play Solidarity competitively? Flash of Insight says "OMNOMNOM, eat instants, SYNERGY!" You often can't win without Flash of Insight (e.g. you played Stroke of Genius to draw cards but you have to win NOW). If you cut it, you can cut Cunning Wish in the same breath.

oh, so much thanks for welcoming. people like you just make my day If I haven't seriously tested what I said, I wouldn't have said it, because I honestly respect all of your testing too.

but against the balanced thresh... 5th turn is the earliest you can try to play around daze with cryptic command, and 5th turn is usually too late. what if they have 2? or FoW also? If you don't have a clock ticking on your face, then by all means command is superior to everything else. I'm just saying that I don't like it, atleast not in my current meta and it certainly is not an auto include.

About flash, I wont even bother. I don't like it, it didn't work for me. If it works for everyone else, it's just great. I was just merely pointing other possibilities for the deck to go... but I quess the atmosphere is too religious for the origin, to accept anything that is a little different

[Shimster]

Sorry for being harsh, but I'd to wake up too early this morning. Really ...

The balanced Thresh MU is mostly statistics. If they've got 2 FoW with pitch cards on turn 5 (in addition to Daze), they don't have that much of a clock. I played against UBg fish (Vintage version) last tournament and won, even though he had got Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance. Why did I win? Because he could not counter my Cryptic Command. The second game, I won through Daze, Force of Will and 2 Spellstutter Sprite, in response to a Duress because he had absolutely no clock (apart from 1 Spellstutter Sprite).

As you can see, Aggro Control is very predictable. Either they've got a clock and less to no counterspells or they've got an ass full of disruption, but no clock.

[Bahamuth]

Sorry for being harsh, but I'd to wake up too early this morning. Really ...

The balanced Thresh MU is mostly statistics. If they've got 2 FoW with pitch cards on turn 5 (in addition to Daze), they don't have that much of a clock. I played against UBg fish (Vintage version) last tournament and won, even though he had got Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance. Why did I win? Because he could not counter my Cryptic Command. The second game, I won through Daze, Force of Will and 2 Spellstutter Sprite, in response to a Duress because he had absolutely no clock (apart from 1 Spellstutter Sprite).

As you can see, Aggro Control is very predictable. Either they've got a clock and less to no counterspells or they've got an ass full of disruption, but no clock.

Yea, this idea about Thresh is generally right. It's just that there are those decks that run both Counterbalance and Confidant. In that case, they can easily have both. If Confidant is not dealt with early enough (by either countering it or trying to win), they can easily overwhelm you with too many counters.

Fuck Confidant...

[Van Phanel]

@Yan:
- If you get to five Islands (and if they have Counter-Top, they don't have a clock, so you likely will) Cryptic Command can get rid of Counterbalance.

Compare: Threshold playing Counterbalance has 4 Force of Will where you have Force of Will as well and 3 Cunning Wish and 2 Cryptic Command. Chances are that you will be able to bounce their Counterbalance.

- The Brain Freeze yourself is not something to rely upon. See it as one of a gazillion possibilities that Solidarity offers. Don't do it if it isn't necessary, but having the possibility is cool. I think Brain Freezing myself (for Flash of Insight) comes up around once every 10-15 games (Edit: After some thinking, I'd rather say about every 20 games) and it works in about 8 of 10 cases.

Even more important is that Flash of Insight is a way to produce actual cardadvantage without skipping a turn. It will also likely work under Counter-Top.

- Not playing Turnabout side seems really strange, I'd say that you will probably regret this soon. Meditate is the only card I wish more often.

CB is probably the main reason why Solidarity is no longer a tier deck. If you can't get rid of CB, you probably are not going to win the game, so i think it is not overkill to dedicate so much slots against that card. Solidarity is Control/Combo after all.

Wrong. The reason why Solidarity isn't a tier deck is the fact that it is very hard to play and so rarely played.

You have to be able to deal with Counterbalance, that's correct. But a Counterbalance is no problem on it's own and thus can be overcome. They still need SDT, Counters and a serious clock in order to win.


@Pelikanudo: Your list will likely be able to deal with Counterbalance. Goblins or any aggrodeck will demolish you though as you are likely going to fizzle because of bad Meditates. Pact of Negation just doesn't work in Solidarity as it cannot be used as a defensive tool (at least not mainboard).



That said, I played the 108-man sideevent at GP Paris. Unfortunately, no Top8 were played. My mainboard stayed the same as above (Edit: actually better look below), while I changed my sideboard:

1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
3 Wipe Away (I am never sure if two or three are the correct number)
2 Echoing Truth
3 Twincast (expected quite some Ad Nauseam)
2 Hydroblast
1 Rebuild
1 Mystical Tutor (just for testing, but I like it so far as it replaces the third Echoing Truth against ETW)

Round 1 against Benjamin (White Stax)

He starts game 1 with a Ghostly Prison and can't fnd his fourth mana. When he does and goes for Armageddon on turn four I Remand it and when he replays it, I go off.

He starts g2 with a Chalice/1 and a Trinisphere. I force the 3Sphere as I have two lands and two Remand. His Magus resolves and he beats for two turns with it and a Factory while I get to Wish for Rebuild. He gets another Trinisphere into play. When he goes for Ravages of War I Remand it twice and then Rebuild in response and FoW it. He can't replay his Chalice as he lacks the mana and is dead a turn later.

A question to you guys: when I went off in G2, I had five Islands and the following hand: High Tide, Wish, Meditate, Remand (no relevant card rfg). I decided to play High Tide, Wish for Turnabout, Turnabout, Meditate, while I could also have gone for the Meditate before the Wish. That would have increased the likeliness to win if I'd be able to find and play an untap with the five mana I had left, while also increasing the likeliness to lose if I don't find one. Which road would you have taken?

1-0-0


Round 2 against Benoit (U-W-B balanced Fish)

He gets an early Meddling Mage on Brain Freeze into play and together with a Grunt attacks me to low life. The Grunt dies but I still have to go off. I don't find a second untap and fizzle.

In G2 he gets some early Grunt-beats and a Meddling Mage on Brain Freeze again. This makes my job pretty doable but I could easily have bounced it precombo had it named High Tide. When I am midcombo, I have a lot of Mana, Cunning Wish and Brain Freeze available I just Brain Freze him and he scoops. Only when we pack our cards we realize that the Mage had still been in play. The game can't be backed up so I still get to win it (I didn't sleep too well and thus wasn't concentrated enough).

As those games had taken rather long, we can't finish a third game in time and draw.

1-0-1


Round 3 against Thibault (Faerie Stompy)

In game 1 he gets an early Chalice on one and two and adds a 4/4 Cloud of Faeries (thanks to Sigil of Distinction). Before he'd kill me I try to Command his Chalice1 back to his hand but when he Forces I can't Force back (because I'm on only one life).

In game 2 Thibault starts with turn 1 and 2 Sea Drake. When I Echoing Truth them both he looks pretty unhappy and this gives me enough time to bounce his Chalice/1 with Command and win the game.

In game 3 he mulls to five and I have all the time in the world to properly set up.

2-0-1


Round 4 against Mathias (U-W-b Faeries)

In game 1 he gets a Jotun Grunt, Stifles it once but it doesn't go the distance. When he fails to counter more than two times in response to a Meddling Mage, he is dead.

An early Bitterblossom and two Meddling Mages on High Tide and Cunning Wish make my life pretty hard. When I try to go off on six lands anyway he can stillcounter twice where once would have been enough.

I get to peek him in g3 and he has no pressure but a Grunt. It can survive two upkeeps and he Stifles it three times in a row to have it go the distance. Before he attacks one last time, I go for the combo and he can only counter twice. Twincast still gets an untap for me and I win without any further resistance.

3-0-1

Round 5 against Cyril (U-W Landstill)

In game one I go off in response to an eot Fact or Fiction that leaves him tapped out. He tries to FoW my High Tide, but I can FoW back and he has nothing left to stop me.

In game 2 he has Enlightened Tutor for Rule of Law which I don't mind at all as I get to Wish for Wipe Away in my mainphase. He gets some beats in with a Faerie Conclave and I play some cantrips until I bounce his Rule of Law when I have eight lands in play. When he replays it on his next turn we get into one of those epic stackwars that sometimes happen in this matchup. He can counter four times but as he chooses to let my untaps resolve and counter my business spells, I can resolve a Flash of Insight for 1, flashback it, find a Brain Freeze and deck him.

Stack Wars (I'm just looking through my graveyard to count blue cards for Flash while a judge took that picture)


4-0-1


Round 6 against Sebastien (It's the fear)

Sebastien comes late and gets a gameloss. We start with the second game and he resolves an early Counterbalance (without SDT though). I only lose one cantrip to CB and get to build up for Cryptic Command he counters, I counter back and he counters again. When I try for Cunning Wish a turn later he has another Counter and as he has found SDT in the meantime, his 2 Tarmogoyf get to kill me.

For game two he doesn't have Counterbalance early and I get to sculpt a hand with lots of untaps but only a Meditate as carddraw. In response to his Counterbalance I go for it with six lands in play. He lets my High Tide resolve and tries to counter the following Reset. I Reset again and he tries to counter again. When I have Turnabout as well he has no answers left and I get to kill him thanks to a good Meditate.

5-0-1


Round 7 against Jean-Mary (Lifecombo with blue for Meddling Mage and black for Doran).

I've seen him play before and know that I'll have a hard time in this matchup as he plays 11 copies of Meddling Mage main (3 Mage, 4 Eladarmi's Call, 4 Living Wish), as well as 4 AEther Vial. In game one he gets an early Vial and as he has two available Meddling Mages he names Cunning Wish and Brain Freeze believing that he locked me out. When I don't concede right away, he seems surprised and then says something about a list with Cryptic Command he has seen somewhere on the internet. I go off, bounce the Mage on Wish and combo on. When he activates his Vial on 2 I have both Cryptic Command and Cunning Wish ready to deal with it, so I let the Vial activation resolve. He names Command, I wish for Echoing Truth and Brain Freeze him to death.

In game 2 he gets two Mages that both name High Tide. Unfortunately I neither find my boarded Echoing Truth, nor Cunning Wish, nor a fourth land that would have allowed me to play Cryptic Command. His Mages kill me in short order.

Game 3 his draw was pretty insane. On turn 4 his board looks like this:

3 land, Mother of Runes (active), Meddling Mage (High Tide), Meddling Mage (High Tide), Gaddock Teeg, Vial (2 counters). I have five Islands in play and try to go for it one turn later with Reset and Meditate as I am already on low life but I just don't have enough mana to deal with the Mother of Runes-protected army of annoying combo-stoppers.

5-1-1

This is enough for 8th place which is not too bad at a 108-man event. Still I would have preferred the chance to play top8. Unfortunately there wasn't enough time for that as the room had to be left a short time after the swiss rounds. Stupid GP sideevents... A friend also placed third with TES (6-1) so the tournament was pretty succesful for us.

I'm sorry if the report isn't very detailed, but I only took few notes as I had to focus on playing most of the time.

- Van

PS: Sorry about the delay with the primer. Between my computer being down, university killing me and Extended testing, I just couldn't find time to finish it. I'll try to do so as soon as possible, but likely this will be only after PT Berlin.

[jazzykat]

@Van: To win through CB and chalices and FOW all day...you are the man! Congratulations on a very well earned top 8.

[badjuju]

@ Van Phanel

First off, grats on the finish again!

Sorry, but could I find your list somewhere? You stated that it's the "same as above", but I've sifted back several pages and still couldn't find it.

[Van Phanel]

Oops, sorry. Seems that I haven't posted it here lately.

Anyway, here it is:

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
12 Island

4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
3 Opt
1 Peek
4 Reset
4 Impulse
3 Remand
2 Brain Freeze
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
2 Cryptic Command
4 Force of Will
2 Flash of Insight

The sideboard varies and I currently only see Stroke, Meditate and Turnabout as fixed slots. Some bounce will likely always be necessary but which and how many depends on the tournament.

[klaus]

Gratz, Van!

Looks like there wasn't a single game in which you casted 2 Wipe Aways.
Judging from that 2 (not 3) seems to be the perfect number, huh?

[Gocho]

With 3 Wipe Aways you can put two MB and still have the other one in SB to Wish for it.

[Van Phanel]

Looks like there wasn't a single game in which you casted 2 Wipe Aways.
Judging from that 2 (not 3) seems to be the perfect number, huh?

Well, not quite. Boarding two makes it more likely to draw one without having to Wish for it.