Why do you favor the route without LD Versus. You have sink and waste and for the early game Hymn sometimes acts as a destruction effect yanking 1 or 2 lands out of their hand helping to ruin their mana base. So if you include the fact that hymn often grabs lands then you run more then 6 (the amount I run, will be 7 or 8 for other people) LD pieces. Oh and does it matter if it realy isnt true sui black... because were all trying to improve our decks as much as possible. if you stray off flavor or theme to make your deck stronger isnt it worth it.
Call me Ishmael
It's absolutely worth it. I'm not denying the LD aspect, I think MBC is more than solid. That's how I see Confidant/Sink/Waste in mono black as more of a control game not so much agro.
You're right it doesn't matter what the deck is called as long as it performs well. I didn't mean to come off sounding like I was against going in that direction or that it was lesser in any way, I just prefer the aggressive balls out approach.
My tune may change. I've been building decks for my wife to play against me that antagonize my deck checking it for weakness . I made her a Boros like deck with lots of fast 1 and 2 drops and 12 burn spells. I've found in order to win I need to take the control approach. NO FIRST TURN NEGATORS no matter how tempting! If I get them in my opening hand I hold back and give up Zombie targets to take the burn, disrupt to empty her hand of threats, and then I drop the Negator when I have enough permanents to spare if it gets burned. Most times I don't even have to as a Jitte equipped pump knight delivers the final blows.
I'm starting to enjoy the slower game. I may just become a convert yet!
In painting, you have unlimited power. You have the ability to move mountains. You can bend rivers.
I dont see myself playing Negators without the LD. I mean burn is out there and it will screw you over if you play Negators. There is too much in my area, but as mentioned Red Sligh is not highly played outside small tournies. Unfortunately for me, there is some Sligh in my meta. I am not sure what the probability is of my Negators getting bolted or chain lightened in larger tournies, but until I go to the Grand Prix or something I think I am going to hold off on him. Meh, wow I went off an a tangent. I guess I am annoyed that I cant play Negator in my area with a peace of mind. I was thinking that sinkholes would help out this deck's match up against burn though. Also, obviously it would help board wise by inhibiting the opponents abilities to send larger creatures for the Negator to run over. Hey, if anyone wants to trade or give or sell me some sinkholes for something reasonable just let me know
You know, Rotting Giant and Therapy have some weird interaction.... like Yin and Yang. Until I get over my Negator fears, I think I am going to run 2 Annurids and 2 Giants. They seem to me a bit underrated.
Negators aren't for the faint of heart that's for sure. Still I find even against burn they are playable, you just need some patience. 4 Bolts, 4 Incinerate, 4 Lighting Helix, and 16 cheap 1-3 drop creatures were in the deck I was playing against last night with the Negators main decked. You just have to hold them back till your opps hand is empty or you have enough land to sacrifice in case a Bolt flies his way.
Yup you can feed the Giant a single use Therapy or sack him to use Therapy again. That's sorta a disynergy/synergy all in one.
In painting, you have unlimited power. You have the ability to move mountains. You can bend rivers.
Lol... That's kind of a bad excuse. Negators work fine in the "Flash Era No LD red death build" with confidant, burn, and jittes.Originally Posted by LordEvilTeaCup
I dont see myself playing Negators without the LD. I mean burn is out there and it will screw you over if you play Negators. There is too much in my area, but as mentioned Red Sligh is not highly played outside small tournies. Unfortunately for me, there is some Sligh in my meta. I am not sure what the probability is of my Negators getting bolted or chain lightened in larger tournies, but until I go to the Grand Prix or something I think I am going to hold off on him. Meh, wow I went off an a tangent. I guess I am annoyed that I cant play Negator in my area with a peace of mind. I was thinking that sinkholes would help out this deck's match up against burn though. Also, obviously it would help board wise by inhibiting the opponents abilities to send larger creatures for the Negator to run over. Hey, if anyone wants to trade or give or sell me some sinkholes for something reasonable just let me know
You know, Rotting Giant and Therapy have some weird interaction.... like Yin and Yang. Until I get over my Negator fears, I think I am going to run 2 Annurids and 2 Giants. They seem to me a bit underrated.
Again, Negator is perhaps the BEST beat black stick in ALL formats. Burn is a 40-60 match for my RD deck, so mono black can expect the same or worse. I NEVER hesitate playing a first turn gator against an unknown deck and opponent. In most cases, I would rather drop a gator than a hyppy first turn. If you know your opponent is playing burn/sligh, you hold him until they are out of cards. Even if they draw into a bolt, at that point it won't be enough to wipe your board. And NOTHING short of two burn spells can kill the gator, so I find that he is a beast in mid game against burn. I don't even board out any creatures against burn, because you need your threats. I do board in therapies to get rid of kinesis or fireblast.
LD helps everything in mbs or rd. Not good against certain decks, but still very powerful.
On a side note, I have 4x Unlimited Sinkholes that are in EX to SP conditions. Lmk if you are interested.
Hmmm, you do make a good case for the Negators Blackguard. Also, I am very interested in those Sinkholes.
If I were to tempt a Stark-black build...
DISRUPTION
4x Duress
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
CRITTERS
4x Sarcomancy
4x Carnophage
4x Nantmuko Shade
4x Stromgald Crusader
2x Order of the Ebon Hand
4x Hypnotic Specter
EQUIPMENT
4x Umezawa's Jitte
MANA
4x Dark Ritual
17x Swamp
2x Lake of the Dead
I've been considering switching over to this list - as I think the stark sui-builds are solid builds and less tempermental. They play a more sui-aggro approach and less aggro-control. However, the deck has less ability to just blow an opponent out of the water with a couple of must answer cards.
CARD CHOICE & THEORY
Land Destruction - There's been a little recurring debate on whether or not land destruction should be included in particular sui-black builds. I'll offer my take and the reasoning behind it. I think land destruction should not be included in the stark-black builds, but it should be in more traditional builds. Land destruction is disruption primarily aimed at tempo. It has other purposes; for instance keeping an opponent off a particular color, but land destruction is always and foremost a gain in tempo. With this in mind, land destruction is much more effective in the early turns of the game when the opponent is facing a large beater which they can't deal with (a first turn negator or specter being two excellent examples). The more traditional builds of sui-black tend to run less creatures overall, but more creatures of higher cc and size/devastating effect.
If running land destruction I would also advocate running a full complement of land destruction as multiple effects often don't buy you just 2 turns, but more. A single land is easy enough to replace but multiples may take a few turns for the opponent to draw into.
Stark-black runs more creatures, though smaller; primarily because of the 1cc 2/2's. This makes it tough to run a full complement of land destruction effects. It also means the creatures are generally less effective when paired with land destruction effects. However, the most important reason I wouldn't advocate land destruction in stark-black is because your second and third turn (when land destruction is most effective) stark-black usually wants to play other spells available to it. A second or third turn Jitte is almost always better. Dropping a creature, or two more is often a better play. Stark-black plays to overwhelm the opponent with its critters. It plays like and aggro-deck where older builds play 1 or 2 heavy threats with alot of disruption to ride those threats through (aggro-control's game plan).
Obviously not everyone is in agreement with me. And even if you may agree with the points I've brought up, that doesn't mean land destruction is still so effective that it's worth running anyways. Discuss.
Discard - Even though I've cut the land destruction the deck still wants more disruption than 4x Duress and 4x Hymn. Cabal Therapy is a good choice in the Stark-black builds because the build runs enough creatures that you're willing to sacrifice a couple. Discard is a bit more flexible than land destruction, particularly with regard to when it is optimally played. If you're facing off against combo, you play it as quickly as possible without care of when you drop your creatures. Against aggro you save your discard 'til after you've laid down a board presence when its purpose is to remove the late game bombs your opponent may have to react to what is hopefully your superior board position. And just as with all types of black disruption, obliterating one type of an opponents resources (hand, land, etc); it's most effective when completing eliminating a particuplar type of resource.
Critters - Part of the reason I am impressed with Stark's original list is because of the pump creatures. In his primer he explained their inclusion for two reasons. First they're excellent against fish-esque decks. Unfortunately this is no longer as important as in the flash era. However, some of the other justification for running pump critters (not just Shade) is because of the late game it offers the deck. Stark-black has a large excess of mana late game and the pump creatures are an excellent use of said mana. Late game they are just effective as a negator. This is the primary reason I chose to try these creatures over others.
A few other criteria helped to bolster the decision to run pump critters.
As earlier mentioned the Stark-black build is less tempermental than other suicide variants. The pump critters are effective for their cost, without drawback, and continually get better; basically the ideal of a solid creature. Stromgald Crusader is also a zombie helping mitigate Sarcomancy's drawback, and it can fly which is never bad when looking for a target to equip Jitte with, or to deal a final blow.
Admittedly this may be the wrong choice. Phyrexian Negator is a very good with the amount of permanents Stark-black tends to lay down. However, I've very much liked the switch over thus far.
Lake of the Dead - This was part of the reason I decided to run the pump critters. Lake of the Dead offers some amazing turn 3 plays such as laying and equipping Jitte + 2 more mana, or playing out your entire hand of critters and discard for a huge tempo swing. But more importantly, it helps make the pump knights and shade so much more effective late game. I considered briefly running Cabal Coffers, but ultimately chose Lake of the Dead because of the ridiculous turn 3 or 4 players Lake of the Dead allows. And who doesn't love the art.
... So that was alot to write. Feedback would be much appreciated. I also hope it's swayed some to new possibilites. Thoughts?
That looks good to me. It's pretty much what I wanna run except 8 of our creature slots differ. My playing field is unknown, but since I'm prepared for Goblins anyway I might as well assume Thresh is big and run Wretches main deck, at least 2.
edit: okay, Bill Stark. I wasn't sure who you were referencing.
Last edited by Versus; 08-22-2007 at 08:37 AM.
In painting, you have unlimited power. You have the ability to move mountains. You can bend rivers.
Wow Galroth, when is the next time you are going to a tournie. I want to know details and how the deck runs now! Heh, ummm I can be innovative and creative too if I felt like itSeriously though, that is a very interesting list. Well since I am the resident Suicide Black newb in this thread right now, the only thing I am worried about is the 3 Cabal Therapy not being a 4 of. In play testing, did you find 3 to be the optimal number?
Galroth I just realized something, you have NO removal other than Jitte? I would take out two creatures and 1 other card for a few Smother/Edict, something.
LTC: This is my FINAL will-not-change-it-until-after-Sunday build-I-swear!
4 x Nantuko Shade
4 x Pyrexian Negator
4 x Carnophage
4 x Sarcomancy
2 x Withered Wretch
2 x Rotting Giant
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Duress
4 x Diabolic Edict
3 x Cabal Therapy
4 x Umezawa's Jitte
4 x Dark Ritual
17 x Swamps
SB:
2 Pithing Needle <--Thats all I have right now.
4 Engineered Plague
3 Dystopia
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Null Rod
1 Withered Wretch
I'll let you know how it goes also. If it goes badly I would be quick to assume it was player error on my part (it's been a long time) and not the deck per se. We'll see...
In painting, you have unlimited power. You have the ability to move mountains. You can bend rivers.
For what it's worth, I think Yixlid Jailer has reached the point of being decent now.
Yixlid Jailer will shut off Dread Return, which is strong against both Ichorid and Cephalid Breakfast. It'll also shut off Ichorid, all the Dredgers, Crippling Fatigue, and so on. It can shut off opposing Cabal Therapies, it'll shut off Squee and Genesis against Survival, and against control it'll shut off obnoxious things like Life from the Loam and Eternal Dragon and whatnot.
Heh, I am sure you will do fine Versus. You know what though, your list really annoys me! I swear I was thinking the EXACT same list as you down to the smallest detail. And no I wasn't netdecking your build!!!!! Either I have to get out of your mind or vice versa. We are having some mental feedback. Like a secret psychic version of THE SOURCE lol. *Goes back to deck and changes mainboard to look different from Versus's* Ha! And this time I wont let you or ummm me read minds or something!
I like the idea of the jailer being sideboarded. I wouldn't mainboard it myself, because I use Therapies. Also, it is not a threat and dies to about everything. Is Breakfast becoming more popular all of the sudden or is it just my imagination?
Last edited by LordEvilTeaCup; 08-22-2007 at 05:22 PM.
I don't see how fetches won't help you out. I'm a little partial to them though.
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He is only playing 2 giants. The fetches also are gay because they help tarmogoyf. I still run them because I play Red Death. Fetch life loss is USUALLY neglible, but just because of damn tarmogoyf, its best not to use it.
4 jittes and 17 lands? cut a jitte for 1 extra land, I surmise that you will not be dropping jitte second turn often. Also, cut withered for another needle and null for dystopia. (4 dystopias is the bomb, and 3 needles stop other shanigans.)
zulander: I was going to play them just for deck thinning reasons, but it was pointed out to me that's not necessary.
blackguard:I've found that 18 land offers little difference from 17. I consistantly get 2 Swamps in my opening hand and never get (nothing significant) mana screwed.
The Needles I agree on, I just can't afford it right now that's the main reason I threw the Rod in there. I can see losing 1 Jitte though. While drawing duplicates has happened, it was nothing too crippling. Still. it could result in problems. Also I kinda figured they were a way to stop opponents forks, but other than Red Death and Angel/Faerie Stompy, they aren't even played. Well see, 4 of have been treating me great so far.
Right now it doesn't even matter. I can't even find a place to play out anyway. Everywhere I've called say "not enough interest to bother..."
In painting, you have unlimited power. You have the ability to move mountains. You can bend rivers.
Ive been playing around with Suicide black for a while and this is this list i came up with
Creatures:
x4 Nantuko Shade
x4 Hypnotic Specter
x2 Rotting giant
x2 Tombstalker
x1 Wrethed Anurid
Disruption:
x4 Duress
x4 Hymn to Tourach
x4 Sink Hole
x3 Extirpate
Equipments:
3x Umezawas Jitte
Removal:
3x ghastly demise
3x vendetta
Mana
2x polluted delta
4x bloodstained mire
10x swamps
3x wastelands
4x dark ritual
Sideboard:
4x leyline of the void
2x Negators
3x chalice of the void
4x E plauge
2x dystopia
Most of this is basic for suicide black, somethings are diffirent
TombstalkerA 5/5 flying for 2 seems pretty good. I never have trouble getting cards in the yard becouse of all the fetches, wastelands, cheap sorceries and instents. Some people say that it sometime gets in the way of rotting giant but i have never had this problem. He win games and weakens tarmogoyfs.
extirpate i think this card is great especially with all the other removal /disruption i play.
No Negators? I hate this card it has messed me countless times before so i put it SB. Tombstalker main and extripate main seems better to me]
leyline of the void this card is much better than tomods crypt. Its also free its ,permanent, its uncounterable and u can even hard cast it with dark ritual turn 2.
This deck beats breakfast/ichorid , most control, and has the potential do beat combo.
I NEED HELP WITH MY SIDEBOARD
Umm yah negator messes you up sometimes but most of the time its awesome against everything. Unless you meta has a large presence of UGR thresh (not even burn stops this guy, hes my best tool agianst them because he finishes games by themselves... just wait on him till their hand is empty or you have lots of perms). Tombstalker usually comes down turn 4+ and this deck usually wants to beat the opponent by the 5th turn. Put atleast 3 of them in your deck(use the sb slots to up the dystopia count)
Your removal is subpar to what most of us here run. Play snuff out and smother (or edict, i play smothers). Snuff out is a free target removal spell so it will increase tempo.
Extirpate is bad in this deck. This deck wants to rip up your opponents hand and board and extirpate effects neither. Even if you get a opponents key card out then most likely they will just draw something else and beat you with it. I would suggest confidant in this slot.
Some other cards you might want to try
Carnophage: 2/2 for 1 mana. when you run these along side sarcomancy you easily overwhelm your opponent.
sarcomancy: same as carnophage but good with negator.
Chrome mox: can help you with speed. i dont run them myself but they can make your deck faster.
Call me Ishmael
Your right about negators and the removal but how is extirpate bad its like a duress for their whole deck. Extirpate slows down alot of decks(specially scince decks these days relly on small combos/win conditions). i rather extirpate one of there win conditions so they have to wait to draw another wich will probalby give me time to beat them.
Hmmm, I never really researched it, but what cards in Suicide Black are cycled out or banned in Extended. Is it possible to throw a extended list together that looks pretty much the same. Just wondering.
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