depends on the deck, the goal of you cliqueing him the cards you have in hand and the cards you know your opponent has or you put him on. Its highly dependant on each situation but the most common is to clique EOT draw phaseing it occurs most often to prevent people going off from a combo or snatching a loam however that said unless the situation is special or hes low on cards and you have lots of pressure, its probably right to eot it so you can present countermagic mana and stifle mana.Originally Posted by Skiller
I c h o r i d - my anti blue
Manaless Ichorid- At least its cheeper than standard.
We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
Landstill > Fromat
Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
Basics > Non-Basic Hate
We can therefore logically conlude that
Basics > Format
Hey, that's my deck, didn't realize it was up on deckcheck. Nice to be acknowledged...
About the lands, I really don't care about what fetches you use, but if you were to tweak it, you're probably right. The "bluff your deck" with a Foothills-go 1st turn is kind of old, diversifying against extirpate is probably better.
I am really fond of the 7/7 split in fetch/duals though.
About SB, this tournament was before spell pierce. I've tried it since, but was not very happy with it. What's your experience with pierce?
I've tested Spell Pierce, too. And I have to say that it really is a bomb.
I used it against CB (Supreme Blue-style), Plainswalker-Control, and Combo. It always did what it had to do. Especially against Control it gave me enough time to kill my Op before he could stabilize (e.g. i could actually counter elspeth, humility or cut him from digging his library for the right mana using top.)
I think it's stronger against everything besides storm combo... it hits more stuff, plus pay 2 is more like a hard counter
Hi,
I entered a small tourney yesterday with this list by Simone Giovannetti. I went 2-3 because of some really strange moments/decks/decisions but would like to elaborate the deck by itself.
The big differences towards regular TT lists is the Creature base of 4 Goyf, Lavamancer and 2/2 Clique/Predator. It runs 1 EE and 19 lands (1 basic island) main. -yes, no Spell Snare and I didnīt miss it anytime. SB got 3xFirespout.
1st round, MUC/b
Nice guy who normally plays T1, but he tried to check the legacy meta to play a big tourney next week. I didnīt see too much of his deck, but itīs been a whole lot of denial, recurring artifacts (Shackles, EE) and Morphling beatdown. Game 1 I mulled to 4 and was beaten quite fast when he had 8 island and Shackles.
Game 2 I hat 2 additional Spell Pierce, 2 REB and Crypt for his Academy ruins. Goyf made that game.
Game 3 he resolved Morphling with two mana open. I had 2x Lightning Bolt, 1 REB in hand and decided not to trade 3 for 1. Bad Idea... Morphling made the game.
2nd round, TypeII Jund-Cascade +Taiga
seriously, not funny. How could TT any possibly lose to T2-Jund-Cascade? Attacking with a 5/6Goyf, he got Bituminous Blast into Bloodbraif Elf into Blightning. Three times. Gotta be kidding. Lost 1-2 against T2.
3rd round, Landstill... i guess
He ran into my Stifle even though he was on the play. Since he kept a hand of two lands and the other one got wasted, Goyf took this game quite fast. G2 he fetched for the basic island, but did not find any other source. Goyf made it even though he had 3 swords in hand.
4th round, TT mirror
He never played the deck before so it was kind of one-sided. Even though he knew what I was playing he did not fetch on his first turn, so I stifled his fetch with FoW Backup. There was some strange boarding on his side and my SB got 5 Blasts so I took the win quite easily. Lavamancer made the game.
5th round, Aggro Loam
Mull to 5, one land, he got Wasteland, game2.
G2 I somehow manage to stabilize and beat him down. 2x Lightning Bolt seals the victory. Game 3 I got a hand of 2xVolcanic, 1xTropical. Dumbass that I am I drop the Tropical, he got Wasteland. I donīt find a green source all game long and got crushed with 2xGoyf on hand.
So, how did the single cards play out?
Grim Lavamancer
I always loved this guy. There were quite some games which he won all alone. Since there have been some times where I had nothing to remove in my gy I would play only three of them next time.
Sidenote: there has NEVER been a moment where I had to remove a card type not present on my opponents side. So he never made my Goyf smaller. He can beat tribal all alone, which is really huge.
Trygon Predator
Good, solid guy. If he does not find a target, he still is a 2/3 Flyer. He got pitched to FoW several times but that`s just okay. Iīm not sure about two of them, though.
Vendilion Clique
Not.less.than.two.of.them.ever. Next time there will be three of them main. They were great against Loam and in topdeck mode they really shine. 3/1 flying is just too good.
EE main
Itīs nice to know that you have a maindeck answer to your bad matchups. They were always great and forced my opp to play around it several times. I would play a single one again.
Spell Snare
You just donīt need it. Yes, it will hit some things you donīt want to resolve like CB, Standstill, etc. but those are things where this decklist got other mainboard answers to. There is absolutely no reason not to let the opponents Tarmogoyf resolve, since yours is more lethal most of the time by Lavamancer/Fire.
Next time I would play it this way:
// Lands
4 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ZEN] Island (1)
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [M10] Lightning Bolt
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
Played in the 40 man at AU Blue Bell Yesterday. Got 2nd, probably should of gotten 1st (possible shenanigans involved). Deck played nice but I definitely needed more Dredge Hate. But luckily didnt run into it.
I went 4-0-2 in the Swiss. And my friend who has never played legacy got 3rd/4th with 70/75. I beat him in the semis.
CDN Thresh
4 Goyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Vendilion
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 FoW
4 Lightning Bolt
4 SPell Snare
3 Fire/Ice
1 Spell Pierce
18 Lands
SB:
2 Pyroclasm
4 Submerge
3 Spell Pierce
3 Pyroblast
1 K Grip
1 Trygon predator
1 Engineered Exsplsives
why do people play wipe away and rushing river? why not 2 of one of them?
No Mongoose? Interesting... Is Lavamancer THAT better?
Was this even a real Skeggi's hero?Lol. You're my hero.
Well, because David Caplan himself plays it in that way. Everybody copies/netdecks him, because he had a (fairly) good result in a tournament. He'll have a good reason for playing one of each, the others probably just copied his list without know the reason. I mean, nobody tested 2 Rivers or 2 Wipe Away, right?
Kanabo, there are other lists arround with good results:
+2 Clique
or
+1 Clique
+1 Bounce
or
+3 Force Spike
-1 Spell Snare
It seems like going top 8 at a GP is the only reason to get people Netdeck your list. Well in Februari there's a GP in Madrid, like 2000 Km from here. Maybe our team will go there.
Team Nijmegen
Robbert Slavenburg
DCI: 2069307189
Depends on the expected meta. Lavamancer can beat Merfolk/Goblins all alone. He forces Zoo to spend a burn spell on him and will get tiny blockers out of the way for Goyf to run through in about any matchup. He can shoot himself against Ichorid if you donīt have any other weapon at hand. On a Goyf-stall heīll make the difference in your favour.
I wonīt say that Lavamancer is strictly better but I loved him all day long. Heīs quite versatile and threats your opponent even before you get Threshold.
If Iīm about to experience more combo-based decks out there I would run Mongoose instead.
Still pushing the Spike i see, it's not bad but it wil never replace a Spell Snare.Well, because David Caplan himself plays it in that way. Everybody copies/netdecks him, because he had a (fairly
Kanabo, there are other lists arround with good results:
+2 Clique
or
+1 Clique
+1 Bounce
or
+3 Force Spike
-1 Spell Snare
It seems like going top 8 at a GP is the only reason to get people Netdeck your list. Well in Februari there's a GP in Madrid, like 2000 Km from here. Maybe our team will go there.
I play 2 occasionally, when heavy combo is expected.
I think Spell Pierce has replaced it though, since it's mostly a hard counter against everything but creatures.
I am also liking having more burn the last past times btw.
Maybe i'll go to the GP to, depends if many Benelegacy players are going.
If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it. Volrath
Founding father of Team Moosebite, the team that really bites.
Lols, I approve of this term.
Benelegacy is a site for player from the Benelux;)
If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it. Volrath
Founding father of Team Moosebite, the team that really bites.
What does every one think of the version which is the standard list with
-4 goose
+4 mancer
-2 bounce
+2 clique
-4 Spell snare
+2 Predator
+1 EE
+1 Island
The loss of snare is offset by mancer + bolt being able to kill most goyfs, EE and predator being answers to countertop and so on. It keeps the standard tempo package with a slightly better late game but a much worse control matchup. The loss of goose is pretty important but the differances are as follows
Vs Goblins
Goose blocks 1 dude Lavamancer is litteraly the abyss with an upkeep of R
Vs Merfolk
Goose doesnt do alot always especialy vs relic, Once again lavamanacer is nearly the abyss for R
Vs Zoo
Goose is good but it doesnt contend with T1 Cat before turns 3/4 Mancer can do it on turn 2. Mancer also just kills other mancers quasli's and on the play prevents cat from being played.
Vs landsill
This is where the aquard part comes in, mancer is actualy mediocer still but it eats one of so MANY removal spells that it isnt very good. While goose litteraly can win the matchups alone.
Vs Counterbalance thresh
This is pretty close, goose is markly better unless they are running the version with sowers and bobs. Although grim lets you play up a single bolt/fire into a leathal for RWM.
Vs Combo
Debateable I Would argue that lavamancer is better because he will deal more, more consistently, its actualy really close.
Vs ichorid
Lavamancer is suicidal.
Goose blocks.
Mancer is better but goose isnt terrible either.
I could talk about the other cards but clique is alread a mainstay and predator and EE shore up obvious weaknesses. In all Im guessing the mancer version is better vs metagames with lots of aggro and counterbalance, and goose is better in a control and combo metagame.
I c h o r i d - my anti blue
Manaless Ichorid- At least its cheeper than standard.
We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
Landstill > Fromat
Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
Basics > Non-Basic Hate
We can therefore logically conlude that
Basics > Format
The fact that mongoose can't be StP/Path is the reason to play it over Grim Lavamancer.
CB plays Stp
Zoo plays Path
Landstill plays Stp and sometimes Path.
Goblins is splashing white more often for Stp. Also has Fanatic (still played) and Incinerator.
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." --Ash
As long as we continue to have an aggro heavy envioronment, and the decks like Stax which are present as a foil to that envioronment, I like the move a lot.
You're assuming the pilots of those decks are going to waste one of their few removal spells capable of dealing with a fat goyf...on mancer? Sweet. Line em up.
When they know that you are playing very little treats, then yes I can see them using a removal spell. Just so we are clear ...
Zoo can remove 'mancer by burn as well. I mentioned goblins has multiple ways to do with him. CB decks has a hard time with Mongoose due to having shroud and coming out early. They got Spell Snare and Daze as well for your Goyfs.
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." --Ash
In T.Thresh we have few threats (we need space for all the blue tools+burn), so they MUST be very difficult to deal with to keep up the pressure. Grim dies too easily, it's only really worth against merfolk.
In other decks such as goyf sligh or Naya, lavamancer is certainly a house since your threat density is significantly bigger and at some point one of your critters (be it mancer or whatever) will be left unchecked due to lack of resources, whereas in T.thresh almost any deck will be capable of dealing with a single lavamancer.
Just some thoughts!
EDIT: If you don't have a pressure element, then all your tempo strategy simply FAILS!
3 Lavamancer should be enough since you never want more than 1 on the board. Overall I think heīs better than Goose.
Right now my Creatures are
4 Goyf
3 Lavamancer
3 Coatl
2 Clique
1 Predator
and itīs wayyyy more pressure than normal TT. The lack of Spell Snare does not hurt so much as you force your opponent to play more aggressive than he would usually do. Definitely needs more testing but my first impression is great!
try cutting coatl for more preadator and clique, or goose even... I really dislike coatl... just a suggestion, i'm sure you've tried many possibilities
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