I forgot to say that Knight of the Reliquary is worth testing too as a 1 drop in a survival list. Fetching Karakas or wasteland or Kor haven or tabernacle is fantastic. Specially with haste when you dont have mother for protection ...
I took my friends DNT list to a 20(ish) man tournament yesterday. Took 2nd with his list:
Mono-W DnT:
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mother of Runes
2 Figure of Destiny
4 Serra Avenger
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Jotun Grunt
1 Eight-and-a-Half Tails
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Flickerwisp
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
13 Plains
SB:
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Silence
3 True Believer
Unfortunately he was using his 3rd jitte in zoo so we substituted jitte for a 4th O-ring. Jitte probably would have helped significantly in Burn and against elves.
Bant Aggro with CB and NO
Game 1:
He mulls to 5. I play a vial turn 1, he plays a turn 2 counterbalance. I get mangara with flickerwisp. We trade removal for creatures for quite a while until I get a few flyers that go all the way.
Game 2: (boarding +1 Grunt, -1 Figure)
He gets the nuts, Wall of Roots into turn 3 progenitus. I scoop.
Game 3:
He forces my vial. LONG game.. we keep trading with creatures until eventually he has a Wall of Roots in play and is beating my face in with a Trygon Predator. Eventually I get a Serra Avenger on the board, but he drops a second predator, threatening double block. So we pass for a few turns until I draw a 2nd Avenger. I swing, he double blocks, I play my second one, he has 2 SDT's in play and 1 on top. He scoops a few turns after.
Tempo Thresh
Game 1:
He mulls to 6. I have turn 1 vial, he doesn't have force. I vial in a Mom at the end of his turn, and then play wasteland, cannonist on my turn. He counters it with spell snare. Then on his turn I drop a serra avenger. I drop a 2nd wasteland and waste both of his lands, swing with avenger. He plays a volcanic island and tries to bolt my avenger, i flickerwisp it in response. I play a port on my turn, swing for 6, tap down his land in his upkeep, he wastes my port. I draw a 2nd flickerwisp, and he scoops a few turns later.
Game 2:
He plays tropical island and passes, I have vial turn 1, he doesn't have an answer?? Turn 2 goyf, I have swords. He is stuck on 2 lands. I have port keeping him off green. I overrun in with vialed creatures.
Burn:
Game 1:
I get turn 1 mom. He doesn't do anything to it and bolts me instead, trying to go for my face, I play a turn 2 jitte, and his eyes get wide. I play a second Mom on turn 3, followed by Grunt. He has hurt himself a lot with flame rifts, and I stabilize with Mom at 6 life in response to fireblast, but he top decks price of progress, and as it turns out I had plains, port, wasteland, karakas in play, but I tapped my wasteland to play grunt when I probably should have left it open so i could waste my own land in response. I lose to a play mistake.. Xo
Game 2: (boarding -4 oring, -3 mangara, +3 True Believer, +1 Cannonist, +3 Forge-tender)
I play turn 1 Mom (again..), he plays turn 1 Scroll Rack. He plays Ankh of Mishra. I play Eight and a half tails. I play an Ethersworn cannonist, followed next turn by jitte. He can't find an answer for it and scoops.
Game 3: (EDIT: I mulled down to 4.. Mom, and 2 land, and vial)
I play turn 1 Mom (AGAIN!!!) and follow it up with vial. He plays sulfuric vortex (oh shit..), in response to his lightning bolt I vial in true believer. I also have ethersworn cannonist in play. He winds up losing to his own vortex.
Elves with Prog:
Game 1:
He shits a bunch of elves and I get completely destroyed. I have turn 1 Mom, and eventually get Mangara + Karakas online but he has the nuts and over runs me with lords. However, I am flashed progenitus when he reveals his top 4 with Skyshroud guy (2/2 with trample).
Game 2: (-2 Jotun Grunt -1 Figure, +3 Kitchen Finks)
I get vial, Mom blocks his creatures for a while. I get cannonist slowing him down significantly. Then Mangara comes online. He actually keeps drawing and playing creatures, I assume he is fishing for Natural Order. It takes me a while to get a clock on him. Eventually I get enough creatures down that he can't deal with and scoops.
Game 3:
I get Mom down, he has a pretty slow hand. I play out serra avenger when all he has is a llanowar elf (I'm holding swords and O-ring), surely I could out race him, but he has Firespout and takes out my avenger. I keep removing his guys, having 2 STP in my starting hand, and I draw 2 O-ring. Cannonist slowed him down, but he keeps drawing 1/1's. Eventually I get down to really low health but top deck a Kitchen Finks to save my ass. Things start to turn around as I smash face with cannonist and Flickerwisp. He is at 11 life and I have mom and Finks as blockers vs. his 2 1/1 dudes. He top decks Natural Order. I scoop..
Conclusion:
I lost twice to progenitus. Not happy about that. Runed Halo in the board is looking good to solve that problem. I'm thinking about enlightened tutor too. It will help find hate bearers for the right matchups. Against combo, you can already fetch your cannonists with it so I think cutting a few silences could help. Then I can run Runed Halo and some grave hate. The only issue is that card disadvantage against control isn't happy. I don't like not having an answer to Prog. though.
Last edited by Vacrix; 01-11-2010 at 01:11 AM.
Nice report, congratulations on your finish!
I've used Tariff and Retribution of the Meek to fend off Progenitus in the past. Both work wonders versus Tombstalker and nasty reanimation targets, too, and the latter solves other rather common potential problems (Tarmogoyf, Phyrexian Dreadnought) in an elegant manner. :)
I'd probably get rid of the singleton 8½-Tails, and get a third Jitte instead. Whilst I haven't tested the Fox Cleric yet, I don't think he'll do terribly much as a 1-of.
How has Figure of Destiny worked out for you (and others running it)?
Last edited by colo; 01-13-2010 at 03:51 PM.
I like Figure of Destiny better than Mother of Runes because it is far more aggressive. And I think this deck needs to be aggressive to compete. Now, Vacrix did well, and I congratulate him. But his opponents were tailored to suit his build (True Believer is pretty fun against Burn, especially when you vial him in) until he met Elves. This deck was designed at a time in which almost all decks were some sort of aggro-control. To meet the needs of a more aggro, less control environment, I don't like Mother of Runes. I like a 1-drop that is a significant threat.
Also, I am playing without Oblivion Ring lately. It has become unreliable in the presence of Pridemages all over. The timing is all in their favor. So I certainly would not count on Runed Halo. Go with Tariff or Retribution of the Meek.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Hi everyone,
I've never posted here before, but I've read through a lot of the threads here. Since Vacrix was playing my deck, I thought I'd make a few comments.
First of all, the list was actually running 3 ports. Second, I originally was testing Eight-and-a-half Tails as a 2-of, a 3/2 split with Mother of Runes. Most of the time, Tails was just too mana-intensive to do anything productive and Mother often did the job better. I think cutting the last Tails for a third Figure of Destiny is a good idea. The mana can be better used to help Figure grow, which is good against a more aggro meta. I still like the Mother of Runes, however, as it often wins games if you also have Jitte. Oblivion Ring does seem weaker, but it is still an out vs a lot of otherwise hard to answer things. If the meta is aggro-heavy, perhaps put the Finks main and Ring in the side?
I've also been considering splashing green for Goyf, Pridemage, Teeg (main), Knight, and Oran-Rief with Finks. Knight being able to fetch both Karakas and Oran-Rief feels really good. I haven't done much testing, and probably won't get too much done soon as college just started again, but does anyone have experience/success with the green splash? Does it become to Wasteland-vulnerable?
Mother of Runes is so good against most aggro decks, though. I've actually come to the opposite conclusion as you, Finn. I think the deck is better served by slowing down just a little bit and playing more of a Control role.Originally Posted by Finn
Retribution of the Meek is my choice. In fact, I wonder if it isn't worth maindecking a couple of them? Kind of fits in with the "less aggro, more control" theme that I was talking about. It isn't something I've tried, mind you. Just thinking out loud.
Here's the list I've been playing lately. It's pretty fun. I haven't exactly playtested it against the entire Legacy gauntlet, but it seems to do pretty well against Zoo and Ichorid.
3 Karakas
19 Plains
4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Mother of Runes
2 Figure of Destiny
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Ranger of Eos
4 Swords to Plowshares
SB:
3 Aura of Silence
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Silence
3 Retribution of the Meek
3 Tormod's Crypt
Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.
i like the list, but there are some things I would like to talk about:
no mana denial: I wouldn't leave the house without a set of manadenial lands in a mono colored decks, 4 ports please...
ranger of eos: (I actually had to use gatherer for this one) what do you fetch? I mean, is getting a set of mom's or figure's that good?
Other than that I really like your list.
I realize this is a contentious choice. Personally, I just absolutely hate to not be able to cast the spells in my hand because one of my lands only produces colorless mana. There are a lot of spells in this deck that require. I dumped the Ports a long time ago because I got so irritated with them. Ymmv.
Generally, you get a Mom + Figure. It's meant as a mid- to late-game play to replenish your hand, when you have enough mana to make Figure big.
Thanks.
Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.
So what is going on with development since Stoneforge Mystic came out?
I love it when Tacosnape reads me Seuss. It's the sodomy I don't like.
I'm testing a list with 2 Stoneforge Mystic and 4 equipment (2 Jitte, one of each sword). So far, I'm pretty much amazed with the Mystic.
I've dropped one MoR, one Jitte and 2 Canonist to accomodate the changes.
For some reason the discussion on Salvation for this deck is usually more productive than here. That is the case now.
@Volt: I think the deal with Mother of Runes is still not settled. Honestly, I have always disliked using that card. But it is possible that your control approach in the changed metagame will prove the more appropriate. Certainly if the deck starts to look like typical WW there is a problem though. As that deck just lacks gas.
@Stoneforge Mystic: I am going to predict that this card will be a standard piece in any deck that has white mana and equipment for many years to come. And since it has potentially large scale design changes attached to it, I think that any changes we are making at the moment should have this card in mind.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
From my limited testing Stoneforge Mystic is stone cold nuts. Like 95% of games I drew him, he was countered or I won that game. He does what this deck needs so much: continual pressure. Also, the tech Swords of Protection from Various Removal is now avaliable so I tried a list without Mother of Runes:
14 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
3 Figure of Destiny
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowsahres
4 Serra Avenger
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SIDEBOARD:
4 Orim's Chant
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Glowrider
3 Retribution of the Meek
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Some explanations:
Manabase: I want to be able to ramp Figure of Destiny as fast as possible and I want to worry about enemy's Wasteland as little as possible, so I run 14 Plains. Wasteland is essential 'cause it's always good to beat tempo-oriented strategies with their own wearpon (I'm almost immune to TempoTrash and Team America's wastes and they suck to my own). Rishadan Port is unneeded now because with 3 Mystic 3 Figure of Destiny I always have better things to do with my mana. Iona+Retainers becomes popular, so 4 Karakas is no brainer for me. Also, it's even better to be able to draw the 2nd after they waste the 1st.
Euipments: 3 Mystic + 3 equips maindeck was the right number for Angel Stompy, I tried it here and it felt good. Now, the 1 Jitte/1 SoLaS/1 SoFaI felt a little too heavy and unlike Angel Stompy, this deck wants Jitte very much due to Avenger, so I switched to 2 Jitte/1 SoFaI main and 1 SoLaS Side. The FaI sword is great against tribal and in games were you are aggro (vs Combo and Control). The LaS is good when you are control (like vs Zoo) or when facing lots of black and/or white (Eva Green). Also, Serra Avenger + Sword of Light and Shadow > Iona, Sheild of Emeria and Tombstalker.
No Mother of Runes. I wanted to try agressive version and it work very good. I don't know where to put Mom and, more important, I don't know why should I put her back.
Other maindeck choices are nothing special.
Now about sideboard:
1 SoLaS - I already explained why I dislike both sowrds MD. But Mystic gives a possibility to run singletons, so why not use it? Basically, SoFaI is agressive and SoLaS is defensive. And both protect your creatures against single burn spell. So when you want to be aggro, keep SoFaI and when you want to be control, side SoLaS. Exception: Tribal, Dragon/Faerie Stompy. SoFaI wrecks them.
3 Glowrider - Complements Wastelands, usable against Control, Combo and lots-of-cantrips decks.
3 Retribution of the Meek - This started as special answer to Progenitus, but turned out to be effective against all that Tombstalkers and Dreadnoughts and Loam monsters. Also, I found myself siding O-Ring out for Retribution against decks like Team America and Eva Green. They will certanly side in Grip and other art/ench hate, maybe even Pernicious Deed, so Ring becomes worse in G2/G3.
4 Chant, 3 BFT, 1 Grunt are standart.
A general thoughts:
1) I am surprised about how this deck already packs answers to some new cards/strategies.
When Vampire Hexmage was spoiled, I laughed about how I will crush Marit Lage with Wisp and Karakas.
When they unbanned Dream Halls, 4 MD Canonists becomed a little more better.
When Iona/Retainers starts appearing, well... 4 Vial (for Mangara) and 4 Karakas > Iona.
The only exception is Progenitus. As Vacrix's report shows, it is the problem.
Also, AggroLoam regains popularity. I haven't tested the above list against decks with Prog, but Retribution of the Meek is already a good sideboard card for me (1-sided Wrath of God in some matches).
2) I already said that, but Stoneforge Mystic is so awesome. She does everything this deck needed: card advantage, helps other creatures to become a threat and pushes equips through countermagic. This card is a godsend for Death and Taxes.
3) Sorry for somanywords and my bad English.
Last edited by eq.firemind; 02-25-2010 at 03:43 AM.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
Whenever a new set comes out, I always check it for cards that will improve my two pet decks: Deadguy's Ale and DnT. I must honestly say that Mystic fell under my radar, but after seeing the reviews about her I think I will give her a try. Can you guys even think of a matchup were she is bad? It doesn't seem like it would happen, but I gotta ask.
Oh, and Retribution of the Meek? How freaking TECH is that?!?!?!
How has this deck been performing for you guys?
Bakofried, I suggest you check out the new versions players have been toying with. There are some new directions with interesting interactions.
OP updated.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
The list looks nice. My main concern regards how you handle Progenitus.
Don't you feel that Aven Mindcensor would deserve a room (Natural Order, additional mana severage, survival, trinket->EE shut, also quite brilliant against combo).
In SB, even if Meekstone and Harrier are synergistic, don't you think that Retribution of the Meek would be great ?
Discussion; Meekstone:
Pos:
- Creatures it stops from attacking again:
Dreadnought, Tombstalker, KoTR, Goyf, Nacatl, Progenitus, Iona, Inkwell Leviathan, Threshed Goose and Werebear, Vendilion Clique..
- Discourages Merfolk and Elves from dropping too many lords, or if they do, the creatures don't untap.
- It doesn't negatively affect too many of our creatures.
- Flickerwisp can untap tapped Grunts and Flickerwisps.
- 1 Mana investment.
- Enlightened Tutor target.
Neg:
- Is a dead card against a lot of decks, namely Stax, Storm combo, Ichorid, Deadguy, Lands, Berserk Stompy, Landstill..
- It makes Grunt and Flickerwisp not untap.
- Discourages us from equipping non-vigilance creatures.
- Doesn't actually remove anything from the field. Pointing a removal spell at Meekstone opens the floodgates.
Is it worth running in the board? I think its dead in the MD against too many decks.
I don't think Meekstone is a good idea. It doesn't help much against matchups that adding Kitchen Finks and other creatures like Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers or Perimeter Captain would help against. It also hinders us a little too much for my liking.
I haven't done any testing with it in D&T but I've played with the card a lot and those are my impressions.
@Finn, could you explain the Goldmeadow Harriers in the mainboard (OP)? Is a one drop really needed with 4 Vials and 4 Moms? Aren't there far better ways to spend those slots like Ethersworn Canonist?
I think it's connected with Meekstone but I agree with you, I would play something else and exchange Meekstone with something else too.
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