[Deck] TarmoTog!

[Hanni]

One of the dilemmas of the deck is that it is fairly mana hungry and it wants to play free counters because it plays so many sorcery speed spells. Daze sets us back but it may be worth it. The only other option really is disrupting shoal and there isnt enough different cc blue cards in the deck to warrant that.

You have to think what happens after my opponent blows up my grave because there is so much grave hate in sideboards now days.

This deck isn't mana hungry when it is in Threshold mode. Brainstorm, Ponder, Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf, Shriekmaw cast via Evoke, and Cabal Therapy are all low cc. Daze is an additional tempo-oriented disruption tool that compliments that aspect of the deck very well. Once the deck draws Intuition, it then shifts into control mode. However, the deck still isn't very mana hungry at this point. The deck becomes mana hungry once it establishes the Loam + Coliseum and Genesis engines. The fact that Daze answers an early problem typically negates the land drop setback. Obviously, if it is important to hit land drop #3 on turn 3, then you won't use Daze... instead you can discard it later to Cephalid Coliseum or pitch it to Force of Will. More often than not, it's not going to be a big deal. Loam ensures the deck makes a land drop every turn... and this deck doesn't need a billion mana sources to actually win a game anyway.

You are right. Graveyard hate is something that this deck has to deal with. That's one of the reasons I like to run Daze.

As for other options... I think that, rather than trying to add non graveyard dependant alternatives, simply bording into additional disruption would be better overall. This deck is obviously dependant on its graveyard and should remain that way because thats what makes the deck work so well. We have maindeck answers to graveyard hate in Force, Daze, Cabal Therapy, and Pernicious Deed. SB, we get access to cards like Stifle, Krosan Grip, and Pithing Needle. The only graveyard hate that honestly scares me is Extirpate, since its impossible to answer after it goes on the stack. Discard would be the only means of answering it... and even then it won't always work since they can cast it in response.

The thing I like is that this deck doesn't roll over and die to graveyard hate like a deck like Ichorid does. Even once our graveyard gets nuked, we still have Goyf and Shriekmaw as beaters. Leyline just slows us down since we do have Deed as an answer and Planar Void can also be answered via Force, Daze, and Therapy. Even through Exitirpate or Crypt on our engine cards, we can still play out like Threshold.

We can even board an extra Genesis, Loam, Gigapede, etc to bring in as additional engines incase our engine gets hit and we need the engine to win (typically vs a board control deck like Landstill).

To be honest... half the time I don't even use the engine because simply playing the Threshold gameplan works against many matchups (...plus sometimes I don't get to see the engine).

EDIT: **********************************************************

Even though no one seems to be interested in this deck... I've been thinking lately about what the sideboard should look like. Now I know that if I had an actual metagame that my sideboard would probably be dependant on that... but given that I don't play IRL whatsoever and that I'm simply trying to build the deck so that it can handle everything and more specifically the DTB's, what should the sideboard look like?

This is what I've got right now:

Sideboard (15)
3 Stifle
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Gigapede

I'll explain this a little.

I think Extirpate is an amazing card. It answers specific problems against certain decks... specifically other control matchups like Landstill. I can go into detail about this card but I definitely think its spot is well deserved in the sideboard.

I was a little unsure if I really wanted to have Engineered Explosives in the sideboard since I already run Deed but then I decided that additional removal wasn't a bad idea. It's more effecient than Deed against tokens, whether they are EtW or Bridge from Below tokens. It also dodges Needle set to Deed... and diversifying the removal options in that regard seemed fine. My question about these still, though, is whether or not they are needed and whether or not a better card choice would fit here.

I really think it's wrong to not run the 4th Deed in the sideboard though... this card just completely wrecks decks like Affinity, Stax, and Enchantress while still being an extremely strong card against decks like Goblins and Counterbalance Thresh.

I feel that the lone Stinkweed Imp is entirely needed, at least for my build of the deck. The maindeck has absolutely no way to deal with an early Tombstalker. The only outs I have take a long time to get going... either popping Deed for 8 or getting a Wonder in the yard and blocking with enough meat. Tombstalker isn't a huge meta issue, which is why I wouldn't maindeck the Imp... but I feel that it is enough of an issue to at least have an out for it. I prefer Stinkweed Imp over other options for handling Tombstalker since it can be grabbed with Intuition and doesn't need anything for me to return it to hand. It's also reusable and can handle other random stuff. I was considering Maze of Ith but ultimately decided that Stinkweed Imp was the better option.

The lone Gigapede can come in if you fear/know that the opponent will be bringing in alot of graveyard hate and if you need the lategame reach if the Loam+Coliseum and Genesis engines get RFG'd. It's untargetability makes it pretty solid against control decks too... which is the type of matchup where I'd want him most. I was considering Volrath's Stronghold here instead but utimately decided on Gigapede for a number of reasons.

Now...

I'm wondering how big of an issue combo is and whether or not more combo hate would be appropriate in the board. I feel like I have sufficient hate right now, especially since all of it is useful against other matchups as well, but... how much better would Duress/Thoughtseize be in the board? Or what about Counterbalances? These are some of the things that I think would be beneficial for discussion.

So... what could get cut, what should get cut, and what am I not running that I should be running? Assume that the metagame is random and full of DTB's as well as full of other Established randomness (and when I say randomness, I don't mean bad decks). Basically, if there was a huge Legacy GP tomorrow, what would [you] put in the sideboard?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

FYI, I'm working on another rather large post to address a ton of stuff. Unfortunately, I'm tight on time at the moment because I have to give priority to my thesis. That being said, you can expect the post in the next few days.


I just wanted to post a more attractive deck-name idea or concept; having just recently been hooked onto Star Trek: Voyager, I wonder how many groans of exasperation might be elicited with a Borg-based name? It's got the right colour scheme, and the concept fits (I've assimilated the best parts of a chunk of decks into one monstrosity).

Anyway. Interesting asides aside, just one quick thing: Hanni, for the sideboard, that's what I've been gearing the sideboards that I've been giving for (immediate and generalized tournament metagames, that is). Extirpate is amazing, as you've noted. We also want a complement to Deed; I choose Crime/Punishment because it's invulnerable to Needle, and can hit a wider range of casting costs (much easier to achieve now, with VE) without waiting for activation. Due to the Deeds and Deed-complements, however, I usually choose not to run Krosan Grip--the only deck it's particularly useful against is Dreadstill or other Dreadnought-based decks. It may become increasingly more necessary, true, and given metagames might require it; on the other hand, Deed and its sisters do all of the same things in most cases. If you need sideboard slots, take those used by the Grips. Similarly, I've found that Deed and Punishment generally take care of what I might want to Needle. Other than that, I don't want to comment on your choices, simply because they're far more deck-specific. You can get away with 3 Stifle, for example, whereas I can't.

Thanks for the posts and tinkering with the deck, by the way. Even if I'm biased towards my version, it's nice to see.



...so yeah. Long post coming relatively soon. Watch out; your genetic and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own.

[Jak]

Wow! This deck caught my eye and I have been testing it. It has been amazing. Now, I made some changes right away because I hated having just FoW. I added Daze quickly but wanted more still. I thought about discard, but that just didn't appeal to me. I tried out CB and it was awesome.

I know what Goaswerfraiejen (copy + paste, FTW) said about Deed and Counterbalance, but I just don't like the reasoning. We should really only use Deed when we are in an unfavorable board position. We play CB so we can get in a favorable board position. Deed may hit a CB once in a while, but if you have to do that then you were losing anyway and had to.

Counterbalance was crazy strong in testing. This deck has plenty of 2 and 3 cc stuff that it can use it more effectively than Thresh. I have played games on MWS where a guy gets out 2 Bobs and I am able to just over power him with CA countering everything he played. His hand at the end of the game was seven 1 cc. I countered those.

List
// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [A] Tropical Island
3 [B] Underground Sea
1 [TE] Wasteland
3 [LRW] Island (3)
1 [MM] Swamp (2)
1 [RAV] Forest (3)
1 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
2 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [JU] Genesis
2 [OD] Psychatog
1 [JU] Wonder

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [TE] Intuition

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [ON] Smother
SB: 2 [ON] Gigapede (could be Krosan Grip)
SB: 2 [DIS] Crime/Punishment (could be EE)

In all the games I played, I used Deed maybe twice. I loved that. I didn't have to rely on Deed to gain CA and out man the opponent. A turn 2 balance kept decks like Thresh, fish, and sui black in check so my guys could then fly over. If I ever needed to, Deed would reset the board.

Also, the deck is 61 cards. I play 20 lands and that felt right, probably too much, so 1 Underground Sea would be the first card cut.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I defended my thesis on Monday morning, so I've had some time to touch up the post a bit and it's ready to post. I made some important changes to the deck since the Shadowmoor spoiler started going up, so there may be some small inconsistencies in the post, resulting from some sections being written prior to these changes. So here goes:


------


Jeeze, where do I start replying? I suppose I can start by saying that Veteran Explorer is actually working out quite nicely. He’s the worst beater ever, but consistently powers plays the likes of which you can only fantasize about. Hitting five mana on turn three is insane--hell, you can even hardcast Genesis if you want to!--and a huge boon against Goblins, because it allows you to get huge walls (and devastating Deeds) in place that much earlier. He’s proven to be an excellent investment, and a great workaround for our mana problems.

Now, an updated list:

2 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
1 Island
2 Swamp
2 Forest

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Psychatog
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Shriekmaw
1 Gigapede
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
1 Eternal Witness

4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sudden Death
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam
SB:

4 Extirpate/Leyline of the Void
4 Stifle
3 Krosan Grip
3 Daze
1 Sudden Death


One thing that has changed a great deal since my last significant post is my removal suite. When I saw the Swans on the Shadowmoor spoiler, I realized pretty quickly that they would prove problematic for TarmoTog, making an excellent matchup into a horrid one. I spent a fair bit of time trying to find some sort of permanent in-colour answer, should SwanThresh become popular, and then I remembered split second.

Accordingly, I added three Sudden Death to the main deck, cut all but one Shriekmaw, and replaced the Mongrels with Psychatogs to allow for more combo-potential on my own deck’s part (I’m not entirely convinced, by the way. The deck needs a bit more tinkering to facilitate a lethal tog-swing). I also re-tooled the sideboard a bit. The result isn’t anything that will have an easy matchup against SwanThresh, but it stands a MUCH better chance than its predecessor. I’ve been testing on and off in my spare time, and so far I’m quite happy with the result: the changes that I’ve made have a wide application outside just the SwanThresh matchup, and it’s left the deck’s performance levels at about the same, or perhaps slightly higher. Sudden Death, for one, has proven a rather useful little beast, smashing out Tarmogoyfs and Tombstalkers in combat, eating up the occasional Mother of Runes, Siege-Gang Commanders, etc. I’m really quite happy with my current removal suite.

Similarly, sideboarding Daze allows for some interesting transformations post-board, allowing you to adopt a more strictly Threshold plan against combo, Stax, and the like. I’ve been finding myself adopting this plan a fair bit to confound quite a few decks that I encounter online, but I haven’t yet determined the best situations for doing so (other than against combo, obviously).

Prior to these changes, I was quite happy with Damnation, which complemented Shriekmaw and Deed quite nicely. I’m just as happy with the current removal suite, however, and feel that it’s more versatile overall.

After seven more pages of evolution, I think that the deck desperately needs a new primer—I’ll get to work on that once school’s out (another week and a bit).

Now, to address specific concerns:

What's the whole deal with Gigapede? Why do you need another discard outlet when your first Intuition should almost always include Loam and Coliseum? The deck doesn't need a self recurring beater when it has Genesis... and if you lose your Genesis, you still have better (read: more efficient) beaters to finish the job.

I know that you’ve agreed to disagree, and so I won’t push the point. To be honest, however, I’ve played (literally) hundreds of games with this deck, and Gigapede is the real all-star: he fulfills two vital roles, and complements the deck’s strategy to a tee. There really is no reason not to run a single copy, even in the main deck. Gigapede rockets up your inevitability, and forces massive card disadvantage on your opponent’s part in an effort to deal with him. This is probably largely a function of my build and my playstyle, but Gigapede swings for the win more often than ‘Tog, Tarmogoyf, or anything else. Anyway, I’ll let it go at that. There comes a point where we aren’t really adding anything substantive any more.

I did, however, want to point something out: my first Intuition is seldom for Loam and Coliseum, but rather for Genesis and two other, situational cards (usually Wonder and Gigapede, but it obviously depends on the board, your hand, etc.). This might reflect a difference in our playstyles or our decks, but my first Intuition is usually for something that affects the game-state immediately, rather than card-advantage. This is simply because the first Intuition will likely be cast relatively early on in the game, when you have a more finite pool of mana to work with and when card advantage is less important.
Consequently, as I mentioned earlier, I usually opt for the Wonder/Genesis/Gigapede trio, but the important part (early on) is really just Genesis—unless the board state says otherwise, of course. This trio does two things: it sets up your mid- and late-games (Genesis recursion--usually of Mongeese or ‘Goyfs), and it allows you to begin punching damage through immediately. Loam/Coliseum/whatever can’t usually do that; one exception, however, might be Loam/Coliseum/Wonder or Genesis. That’s actually a pretty hot move (since you discard Wonder and/or Genesis to Coliseum), but I find that it’s far more dependent on the game state than my trusty Wonder/Genesis/Gigapede. That is to say, it requires relatively little pressure on the opposing board, since you need to use a land drop and two mana—in other words, three mana--to achieve a very similar effect with arguably lesser long-term benefits.

Most often, my Intuition piles look like this (bear in mind that I’m not running Wasteland any more--at least not for the time being):

#1: Genesis/Wonder/Gigapede

#2: Eternal Witness/Pernicious Deed/Shriekmaw
OR
#2.5: Loam/Coliseum/Psychatog

#3: Triple FoW, Triple-Deed, Triple-Death, etc.


There is a problem with that list, however: it can’t possibly reflect the game-state, and fetching out proper Intuition targets is what makes or breaks games. Generally speaking, with a positive board position but no discard outlet, #1 is what I go for because it sets me up for what’s to come, gives me the possibility of controlling the board, and allows me to punch through a few times before I have to hang back on the defensive. But, as you well know, it’s hardly set in stone: if the game-state is slightly unfavourable, I often forgo Wonder at first and toss in Shriekmaw instead. If I have a discard outlet, Gigapede is less useful very early on, so sometimes he’ll get replaced with whatever’s necessary at the time (Witness or Shriekmaw, probably). And so on.

You’re the Tog player, so I’ll defer to your expertise in that field, but I don’t usually feel comfortable with casting Intuition for Psychatog, especially when so many other creatures can seal the deal. Now that I’m running three again, I tend to draw into them, so it’s all well and good (but that also means I don’t want to Intuition into them). Being able to recycle Loam through Coliseum and Brainstorm to feed the Psychatog is definitely ridiculous, but with only one Loam, I seldom feel like using up an Intuition on those tools before the early late-game or late mid-game.

Occasionally, I fetch out Loam/Coliseum/Genesis. Usually, this is when I expect my lands to get zonked, however. This is because the Loam/Coliseum engine, while extremely powerful, chews up three mana (and a land drop) at a time, which is really rough until you hit at least five mana.

Now, since adding Veteran Explorer, the deck’s pace has changed somewhat, making the early Loam/Coliseum engine much more feasible. Still, fetching it out remains very situational, and I’m a cautious player: I try to plan more for the future, and my Intuition targets usually reflect that.

Come to think of it, a whole primer could be written on Intuition targets. =/

I also don't understand some other concepts. First of all, why does this deck necessarily want to play into the late game? It's tempo-oriented like Threshold just as much as it is control-oriented like Landstill.

It doesn’t necessarily, you’re right. Rather, what it wants to do is force other decks to play a style of game with which they’re not comfortable. Accordingly, you want to force control into early- and mid-game defence, and aggro and aggro-control into late-game defence. The deck is pretty good at competing in all ranges of the game, so it wants to take its opponents to task in regions of the game where it is clearly better. Accordingly, my mantra is usually just to play like you would play Threshold, and remember that you can do more things as the game goes on.

Secondly, why was Psychatog considered a worse option than Mongrel? Not only does his being blue and black make him easier to cast through cards like Blood Moon, he ups the blue spell count for Force of Will... and neither of those two things I just said are as important as him being a finisher. When the games do drag out and you finally drop a Tog, you're gonna win next turn unless your opponent has an answer to him (like StP). Tog in itself is a major reason why this deck is so strong... the deck can go from merely stabalizing with Deed or Goyf sitting back as a blocker and then out of nowhere drop a Tog and win the following turn. Maybe I play the deck differently but I know that my matchups against Goblins, for example, is greatly improved when I stabilize on defense and then drop a Tog and swing once for lethal.

A few reasons (written prior to my changes, but they apply nonetheless):

1.) Tog is HARDER to cast under Blood Moon than Wild Mongrel. I don’t understand why you said “easier”. In any case, that was not a determining factor in my choice.
2.) The deck is already chock-full of finishers: Tarmogoyf, Genesis, Gigapede, and Psychatog. One more Psychatog will not make a huge difference, but it will change the way that the deck needs to be played, and it’s not currently constructed to maximize that methodology. A long game will be won by recursion just as much as a Psychatog swing, so why weaken the one to strengthen the other?
3.) The long-game is already strong. The early game, however, is weaker, and Mongrel goes a long way to shoring up that weakness. This is why I advocate cutting into ‘Tog before the three Mongrels: the Mongrels are what get you through to the point where you can actually use ‘Tog. They’re excellent defensive creatures, and strong attackers to boot. They punch through more damage on un-pumped swings than ‘Tog can, and that’s a big part of why I have fewer ‘Togs: the Mongrels set the game such that even a lowly Mongoose or Shriekmaw can finish the job. You’re right that, in the late-game--or even the mid-game—I’d prefer to drop a ‘Tog. In the first six turns that I take (12 game-turns), however, I’d prefer to drop a Mongrel.

Does this mean that I’ve struck the appropriate balance? Not at all. I think that the best balance was 3 Mongrels and 2 ‘Togs; the only problem is that I traded out the ‘Tog for manabase stability, so I’m as yet unsure on how to reintroduce him.

Now, I’ve since gone to 3 Togs and 0 Mongrels. In large part, this is in anticipation of a metagame shift, and even then it’s probably not the best balance. It’s working out quite well in conjunction with the other changes, however, with no detrimental effect on the prior matchup structure (this, I think, is thanks to the change in removal as much as anything). The deck has always run pretty well without the Mongrels, but it works better now. I still want to include them for safety and redundancy, but that doesn’t seem possible at the moment. At least the combo matchup is markedly better.

DTB Forum in mtg is:

MUC
Landstill
Stax
Rock
Faerie Stompy
Aggro Loam
UGr Threshold
Vial Goblins
Deadguy
UGw Threshold
UGb Threshold
RGb Survival

This metagame looks prime for DAT Thresh... why isn't it top 8'ing?

Simple: lack of players and lack of interest. Why THAT is the case, however, beats me: probably because I’ve been involved in its design. I would imagine that the cost of the deck is off-putting, especially given its weakness to combo. Other than that... couldn’t tell you. A few similar versions have cropped up the world over, and the CANGD contest had three decks that were nearly identical, but for some reason the will to pick up the deck just doesn’t seem to be there.


On Daze: With Veteran Explorers, I feel much more confident playing Daze. Whether or not to play it in the main is another question. Even more difficult is the question of what it would/should replace. Personally, my inclination would be just to SB Sudden Death and MD Daze in a combo-heavy(ier) environment. For my own metagame and for MWS, however, I think that we’re better off starting with Sudden Death. If you’re not running VE, then there are obvious slots open there. I really, really like VE, however. But yeah. I’ve come around to your point of view on this issue, Hanni.

On the issue of a generic sideboard: I’ve said it a few times already, but I’ve changed the deck in anticipation of Shadowmoor’s release. Consequently, some changes might just be unnecessary--we’ll see.
What I think is absolutely necessary:

1.) Some form of alternative removal (to get rid of Needles, Dreadnoughts, and Goblin tokens) to complement Deed: EE or C/P are good bets here. I favour C/P because it can’t be hit by Needle, and because it has a wider range. It’s possible to ignore Needle entirely--few decks run very many nowadays--but Dreadnought and tokens can’t be ignored. I’ve come around to thinking that Krosan Grip can also work in these slots so long as you have enough disruption to deal with EtW tokens. That means Stifle and Daze on top of FoW, and/or Duress/Therapies. For the internet metagame, Krosan Grip might actually be the better call, simply because I keep on running into Dreadnought decks, and they have more counter-power than you do (especially since Stifle neuters Deed and EE).
2.) Some form of graveyard hate is imperative. You don’t need to bring it in against Threshold, but you do need it against Loam-based decks, Hulk-combo, Breakfast, and Ichorid. This means either Extirpate (I see more Loam than the others, and it’s helpful in all sorts of matchups--including Burn), or Leyline of the Void.
3.) Stifle. You won’t survive combo without it.

The rest, to my mind, are completely open slots. Given my own metagame and my anticipation of SwanThresh, I’ve opted for Daze and the last Sudden Death.



Jak: Glad you enjoy the deck, and have had success with it. I’m still not sold on Counterbalance, however. I have no doubt that it improves the combo matchup, however. Keep posting your results--I might become convinced, eventually. Not that I think so.

In all the situations that I can think of except combo, I think I would prefer to have an active Deed on the table. Now, I realise that we’re not talking of excluding Deed in favour of Counterbalance, but running both seems to take a fair bit of steam from out of the deck, since both are functionally very similar. Getting a Deed + Counterbalance softlock also doesn’t seem all that impressive to me (mostly, again, due to the lack of synergy). My main concern here is that they’re really both just achieving the same kind of board control, only one (Deed) is more versatile than the other.


My question for the month:

Is Veteran Explorer worth running? He gives the deck a great boost, and goes a long way to fixing mana issues (and allowing you to keep one-land hands), but is he any more useful than added disruption (e.g. MD Daze or Cabal Therapy) would be? I’ve grown quite fond of the guy, which means that I’m now thoroughly biased and could use some input. Not just paper-based input, but testing-based input.

[Hanni]

When you grab Loam/Coliseum/Genesis, you don't have to keep using Coliseum every turn. You can just do it once to get Genesis in the yard and then use Loam once afterwards to ensure that you have land drops for the next several turns. The only time it's a good idea to utilize Coliseum every turn is once you have the mana available and need to dig for a specific answer card (like Deed). Coliseum is used initially to get Genesis/Wonder in the yard... but if the game goes late, vs a matchup like Landstill for example, it is extremely strong at generating card advantage. The biggest part of my first Intuition is that it gets the Genesis engine in place much like your Intuition... but I also get an additional engine(s) in Loam and Coliseum. I can see how Gigapede gets Genesis in the yard faster, since it doesn't require the 1GU + landdrop to get it put in there... but you are still getting additional effects from the mana paid (land drops for the next turn, additional cards in hand, extra cards in the graveyard, etc).

The biggest reason I grab Loam/Coliseum/Genesis is because I need the land drops Loam gives me to utilize Genesis properly. Probably the biggest reason why grabbing Loam initially isn't as much of an issue for you as it is for me is the fact that I'm not running Veteran Explorer and you are. My decklist runs 19 lands... in order for me to get consistent land drops past 3, I utilize Loam.

My question for the month:

Is Veteran Explorer worth running? He gives the deck a great boost, and goes a long way to fixing mana issues (and allowing you to keep one-land hands), but is he any more useful than added disruption (e.g. MD Daze or Cabal Therapy) would be? I’ve grown quite fond of the guy, which means that I’m now thoroughly biased and could use some input. Not just paper-based input, but testing-based input.

It really depends. I play the deck like Thresh... sometimes, I don't need to access the engines. When I do need the engine(s), I still play the deck like Thresh until I can get my engine(s) online. When I'm in Thresh mode, I don't need an abundance of lands that much. I also have more control in Daze and Cabal Therapy, which buys me time to get to the land count I need to utilize the engine(s)... and again, I grab Loam with my 1st Intuition as well.

Against certain matchups, land boosting into the engine(s) is going to be better. Against other certain matchups, the extra disruption pieces are going to be better. This makes it hard to gauge which is the better configuration for the deck. Additionally, playstyle differences are going to affect deck design.

As a long time aggro/control player, I prefer the protection that MD Daze and Cabal Therapy offers me over the acceleration that Veteran's Explorer gives. I'd honestly feel naked playing the deck with just FoW (and Deed).

[Pelikanudo]

Hello Goswairenflun
If you see the meta of legacy We can divide the kind of decks in 4 main kind:
1)Vintagedecks adapted to legacy
2)Extended decks adapted to legacy
3)Old Extended decks adapted to legacy
4)Old vintage decks adapted to legacy

Sometime ago there were some builds of Gush-A-Tog decks If you remember of Old Extended decks. This deck Ive been trying with Really good results is an adaptation of this Amazizin archetype:
//The creatures: Is supposed the deck had 3Togs 4meddlin mage 4Quirion
//dryad
3Togs
4Quirion dryad //Im sorry but i really prefer than tarmo you all boyss will kill
//me but Im in ritgh when I say that Tarmo will never ever will be so big as
//Dryad :)
4 dark confidant // because of large amount of Toolbox i preferr tahn mage
//and sustitutes gush advantage in part with FathomS.
//The spells:
4 brainstorm //12 cantrips of 1 mana are the ideal I think theyre the bests for
//this build we´ll get always the correct card
4 sleigth of hand
4 ponder
2 thoutseize
2 swords to plowshares // I didnt like swords I really didnt need it trust me
//better in SB
2 cunnin wish //to good to not to put it in berserk really shines with both
//dryad and tog
2 Fathom Seer // 6 slots to get full advantage of cards
4 mox diamond
4 dazes
4 FoW
//17lands
4 flooded
4polluted
1 tundra
2 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 island
1 cephalid col
2 city of brass // i didnt really remember is I had this main I think so
//side :1berserk 1misdi some stifles , armageddon more swords extirpate 4 plagues...

[Pelikanudo]

Hello again the deck i posted before is a little different from yours, i'll post an improved version of yours:
The creatures:
4 tarmogoyf
3 psychatog
4 Nimble Moongose

The spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of will
4 swords to plowshares
4 predict
3 counterspell
4 serum visions

The lands:
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
3 tundra
3 tropical
3 underground sea
1 island

I've made the base in order to not to expect somebody playing needle in base because of the varity of decks in legacy. anyway our side will solve this problem sidin in krosan or echoin truth.
I like the predict draw engine althougth accumulated is good too.
The main problem of this deck are the stifle-to-my-fetch or the wasteland-to-my-nonbasic-land thats why i prefer the moxdiamond version.

Respect to your developing deck of TarmoTog I see the So-Good-Pernis not so good because of the number of cheap creatures you play :not sinergistic and If yours is an agro deck please move main these dazes.
The verduran explorer seems to be a good card but I really dont find the sinergy with the rest of deck, I mean its not good playin dazes main, versus Solidarity not at all , versus landstill neither(depends on number of basic lands), versus Gobbos neither, etc, etc Althought you re proud of casting a genesis on 3rd turn¡¡
I think you have to choose between dazes and verduran .I personally perfer dazes

[midnightAce]

@Goaswerfraiejen

I can understand the interaction between the Veterans and turboing out Deeds to clear the board. My problem with the Veteran is that
a) it's a symmetrical effect, and
b) you don't really have a way of sacrificing it. (I don't consider aiming the deck's removal spells at the Veteran to be a good way of saccing it)

I prefer Daze in those slots as well... simply because short of Dragon Stompy, who can play around Daze w/ SSG, all the other decks will either delay themselves for a turn, or play around it very carefully. If you can keep the early threats off the tables, then you can wait a bit longer on blowing the Deed, and milk a bit more advantage out of it. (This point becomes moot, however, in game 2 and 3, when Grip constantly affects your decision of Deed blowing.)

@Dryad vs. Goyf

While it's true that the first Dryad may very well be a lot bigger than the Goyf, over the long run, Goyf will almost always come out superior than the Dryad. Consider turn 6+, you just cleared the board w/ Deeds, you've most likely spent quite a bit of resources keeping alive and stabilizing, you might very well only have 1-2 cards left in your hand. Top deck Goyf coming down with a Counter backup means 4-5 turn clock, where as top deck Dryad coming down means 7-10 turn clock. That's a very significant difference and should be considered carefully.

[Pelikanudo]

@Goaswerfraiejen
@Dryad vs. Goyf

While it's true that the first Dryad may very well be a lot bigger than the Goyf, over the long run, Goyf will almost always come out superior than the Dryad. Consider turn 6+, you just cleared the board w/ Deeds, you've most likely spent quite a bit of resources keeping alive and stabilizing, you might very well only have 1-2 cards left in your hand. Top deck Goyf coming down with a Counter backup means 4-5 turn clock, where as top deck Dryad coming down means 7-10 turn clock. That's a very significant difference and should be considered carefully.

In the deck with mox diamond Dryad is superior than tarmogoyf the reason is moreless the reason why in type 1 we prefer dryad : i mean you re ritgh when you say that a top deck to a tarmogoyf is better( it will be greater on board in late game) but except the 4 dryads THE REST of the deck will make dryad bigger .playing this deck I ve never had a dryad with less power than 6/6 . but if we cast a dryad on first turn and it does not die , for sure will win the game , it easily becomes a scary 12/12 for instance.
The deck is not a common tresshold, it is an adapted Gush-A-Tog from Old Extended season We don't want main those little moongoose We want Tog or Dryad (Confi and Fathom Seer are the substitutes of Gush).

[Pelikanudo]

In the thread of TarmoTog Control Deck Some ideas have came to my mind :
Our goal is to get a Letal Tog or a Letal Tarmogoyf: Therefore:
a) to get a letal Tog the only thing we have to do is draw and draw
b) to get a letal Tarmogoyf(difficult) it MUST be reinforced by berserk AND it must become a 8/9 as maximus Power this goal isnot difficult too get: We need: sorcery,instant,enchantment,creature,artifact,tribal,Planeswalker and land.

Tribal good cards: Lignify, Faery trickery,bitterblossom,nameless inversion.
Planewalkers goods: Garruk and no more.

Well boys Having this in mind i propose this deck:

3 Psychatogs
4 Tarmogoyf

3 cunnin wish // 3 as minimus number
4 brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Pernicious Deed // 3 as minimus number
1 lignify //these are 2 good removal
1 nameless inversion //this one makes our boys even stronger
1 garruk //the less worst of all and another win cond (it has even synergy
//with pernicious )
1 engineered explosives //i like this as artifact option and we can now put
//the academy ruins engine in
1 life from the loam
3 Thougth seize
3 spellsnare
3 intuition
2 gifts ungiven //gifts in here are really good

Lands:
4 tropical
4 Underground sea
4 polluted
2 Flooded Strand
2 lonely sandbar
1 cephalid coliseum
1 cabal pit
1 academy ruins
3 islands
1 sawmp

//Cards to put in or we´ll miss: Masticore, stromgald volraths, Darkblst,vedalken shackless, ghastly demmise, counterspell,wasteland

[Hanni]

Removing Intuition and Genesis is an injustice to this archtype. If you do that, you're much better off playing U/G/b Thresh.

[xsockmonkeyx]

What are you referring to, Hanni? The list above your post has 3 Intuition.

[Hanni]

I was referring to this:

3Togs
4Quirion dryad //Im sorry but i really prefer than tarmo you all boyss will kill
//me but Im in ritgh when I say that Tarmo will never ever will be so big as
//Dryad :)
4 dark confidant // because of large amount of Toolbox i preferr tahn mage
//and sustitutes gush advantage in part with FathomS.
//The spells:
4 brainstorm //12 cantrips of 1 mana are the ideal I think theyre the bests for
//this build we´ll get always the correct card
4 sleigth of hand
4 ponder
2 thoutseize
2 swords to plowshares // I didnt like swords I really didnt need it trust me
//better in SB
2 cunnin wish //to good to not to put it in berserk really shines with both
//dryad and tog
2 Fathom Seer // 6 slots to get full advantage of cards
4 mox diamond
4 dazes
4 FoW
//17lands
4 flooded
4polluted
1 tundra
2 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 island
1 cephalid col
2 city of brass //

...and this:

4 tarmogoyf
3 psychatog
4 Nimble Moongose

The spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of will
4 swords to plowshares
4 predict
3 counterspell
4 serum visions

The lands:
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
3 tundra
3 tropical
3 underground sea
1 island

...and the decklist in the post above is missing Genesis. So my previous statement would still be valid anyway.

[Pelikanudo]

3 Psychatogs
4 Tarmogoyf

3 cunnin wish // 3 as minimus number
4 brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Pernicious Deed // 3 as minimus number
1 lignify //these are 2 good removal
1 nameless inversion //this one makes our boys even stronger
1 garruk //the less worst of all and another win cond (it has even synergy
//with pernicious )
1 engineered explosives //i like this as artifact option and we can now put
//the academy ruins engine in
1 life from the loam
3 Thougth seize
3 spellsnare
3 intuition
2 gifts ungiven //gifts in here are really good

Lands:
4 tropical
4 Underground sea
4 polluted
2 Flooded Strand
2 lonely sandbar
1 cephalid coliseum
1 cabal pit
1 academy ruins
3 islands
1 sawmp

//Cards to put in or we´ll miss: Masticore, stromgald volraths, Darkblst,vedalken shackless, ghastly demmise, counterspell,wasteland, maybe genesis-Eternal engine..

Well about this archetype and the before ones this is more a control oriented deck. The main goal of this archetype is to get a letal tog or a letal or at least scary 8/9 tarmogoyf. therefore intuition can have as main slot more logic. this is not an aggro deck althouth i really miss counterspell as a control card

[Hanni]

I haven't playtested in a while, but the last time I did, I found MD Cabal Therapy to be lacking in certain matchups. Basically, it's going to be extremely strong against midrange and lategame decks where it can be fully utilized... but it is going to be subpar against decks where you need to hit something the first time you cast it (like turn 1). Examples of where it is lackluster is against combo decks in general (which was the main purpose of its inclusion originally) and against Dreadnought decks specifically (since I seem to face them alot on MWS).

Basically, I think running MD Thoughtseizes in place of MD Cabal Therapies would be much better, giving the deck a better overall game 1 against more decks in the metagame, especially when the metagame is random.

HOWEVER, Cabal Therapy is far too strong for me to get rid of entirely.

So basically, I'm dropping 3 Stifles from my sideboard to fit in 3 Cabal Therapies. The reasoning here is, Cabal Therapy is still coming in against most of the decks where Stifle would have come in, except Therapy is going to be stronger against more decks, IMO.

I really like Therapy in games 2 and 3 when I know what the opponent is playing. It's extremely strong vs Landstill, since you know they will have cards in hand lategame and you can Therapy away StP to swing with a lethal Tog, etc. It's also strong vs Burn, which is a bad matchup. It's still going to be good against combo, especially when paired with the 3 MD Thoughtseizes... for example: in combination with Thoughtseize, it's not impossible to completely rip the opponent's hand apart for GBB (the G is the cost of Mongoose). And of course, it has a rediculous amount of synergy with the deck as a whole... whether it be sac'ing a creature before popping Deed, grabbing 3 Therapies with Intuition, dredging away a Therapy, etc.

Here's the current list I'm playing w/ sideboard:

U/G/b DAT Thresh (or TAT if you'd prefer, Thresh-a-Tog)

Lands (19)
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland

Creatures (15)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Psychatog
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
3 Shriekmaw

Spells (26)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
3 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard (15)
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Gigapede

I have been considering Counterbalance for some time but have ultimately decided against it. Maindeck, the deck already has enough mid-late game power with Deed and Intuition (for engine cards). Sideboard, it just requires too many slots to fit CounterTop... and actually, I've been very satisified with the current sideboard.

I highly recommend anyone interested in this archtype to try this list. Try it now for only 3 easy payments of $19.99. If within 30 days you aren't satisfied, you can return the list at no cost. Simply mail it back and I'll even pay for the shipping and handling.

[Proz0r]

Hanni, the list looks pretty good. However, I think Dark Confidant is too good not to play. I would play him over Nimble Mongoose.

Also, how about moving one EE to the maindeck along with an Academy Ruins? Intuition for EE, Ruins and Loam can be very strong.

Is the Wonder really necessary?

[chokin]

Hanni, the list looks pretty good. However, I think Dark Confidant is too good not to play. I would play him over Nimble Mongoose.

Also, how about moving one EE to the maindeck along with an Academy Ruins? Intuition for EE, Ruins and Loam can be very strong.

Is the Wonder really necessary?

Wonder is wonderful. Hits the yard to throw angry Goyfs, Geese, Togs and Terrors over the sad little army your opponent tried throwing together. A few flying fatties in the face is nothing your opponent is going to be pleased about.

Hanni's list looks good. Adding that Ruins, EE, and other random trinkets(Crypt or Needle) might do nicely. Also, I like using a single Gifts in place of Intuition #4 in case of Extirpate. It's not as broken as it was back in Kamigawa T2, but it can create some awesome piles.

Any room for Tombstalker? Highly unlikely an opponent will Deeds him, hard to burn down, and avoids Smother and Terror. Plus with LftL dredges and Intuition or Gifts, he's gonna come down cheap pretty often. Yeah, he takes away from Tog, but he only needs to be fueled once, has evasion and a big butt on top of previously stated stuff.

[Hanni]

However, I think Dark Confidant is too good not to play. I would play him over Nimble Mongoose.

Dark Confidant is actually pretty bad in here.

The deck has 8 cards with a cmc of 5, 1 card with a cmc of 4, and 9 cards with a cmc of 3. These mana costs themselves restric the usefulness of Confidant.

Even if the average cmc were lower, this deck has more than enough card advantage with Genesis, Loam/Coliseum, and Deed.

Another other big criticism with Confidant is that this deck does not support him as aggro. Without equipment, lots of spot removal, or Mother of Runes, he's almost never going to be put into the red zone.

Dark Confidant was amazing in Fish because he had Mother of Runes and Jitte to support him as aggro and the deck had a very low average cmc. Not only that, but the deck had no other means of card advantage. All of the reasons he was good there are lacking in this deck. Therefore, I think he is horrible here.

Now... if you wanted to build a Gro-a-Tog deck, like something similar to what Bardo was working on, then I would definitely advocate Dark Confidant. Bardo's decklist had Jitte and it also had a very low cmc. You can find his decklist on page 2 of this thread, or you can click on this link: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...8&postcount=24.

Additionally, Nimble Mongoose is too good not to run in my decklist. The deck easily supports his Threshold requirements and G for a 3/3 with Shroud has always been amazing. It also works wonders for the manacurve with Genesis. Mongoose stops 1st Lackey but it also powers out the beats vs combo, control, and much more. My decklist is like a blend between Threshold and Landstill... and Mongoose is a quintessential part of that Threshold style gameplan.

Also, how about moving one EE to the maindeck along with an Academy Ruins? Intuition for EE, Ruins and Loam can be very strong.

I have tried this before. You can see the decklist and explanation back on page 2 of this thread, or by clicking this link: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...4&postcount=35. It wasn't bad... but I just didn't find it necessary. The deck has recurrable creature removal with Genesis + Shriekmaw. Now I know that Shriekmaw doesn't answer artifacts/enchantments, and I know that it doesn't sweep the board... but the deck shouldn't need recurrable EE. It's also slow and doesn't provide card advantage (unless the EE is hitting multiple targets).

The other big problem is that you're almost never going to want to grab anything other than Loam/Coliseum/Genesis with the first Intuition... at least with my decklist. With 1 EE and 1 Academy Ruins, you pretty much have to use Intuition for them to see them... with Shriekmaw, you should be able to see one without using Intuition since my list has 3 (and again, the first Intuition should be grabbing Genesis).

I decided a while ago that I wanted to keep the decks toolbox options to the bare minimum to maximize the decks consistency. If you'd like to fit Ruins/EE into the maindeck, you're more than welcome to... you could easily cut 1 Wasteland and 1 Shriekmaw/Deed to fit them if you'd like the additional toolbox.

Is the Wonder really necessary?

I like the reply the previous poster gave:

Wonder is wonderful. Hits the yard to throw angry Goyfs, Geese, Togs and Terrors over the sad little army your opponent tried throwing together. A few flying fatties in the face is nothing your opponent is going to be pleased about.

---

Adding that Ruins, EE, and other random trinkets(Crypt or Needle) might do nicely.

Stretching out the toolbox may give the deck more outs to more situations but it is going to lower the overall consistency of the deck. I addressed this back several pages ago. If players would like more toolbox options, I won't disapprove... but do understand that I've already playtested that route and decided it weakened the deck overall.

Also, I like using a single Gifts in place of Intuition #4 in case of Extirpate.

Extirpate on Intuition is irrelevant. If they are wasting it on Intuition then they aren't wasting it on an actual engine card, which still leaves you with possible outs. Additionally, you really only need to cast Intuition once, if any at all (sometimes you don't need the engines)... and unless they discard your Intuition first and then they Extirpate it, it's not even going to be a target for them. If you'd like to do a 3/1 split, that's fine... I mean, this does dodge other hate like Meddling Mage as well... just keep in mind that Gifts is subpar in comparison to Intuition in this deck.

Any room for Tombstalker? Highly unlikely an opponent will Deeds him, hard to burn down, and avoids Smother and Terror. Plus with LftL dredges and Intuition or Gifts, he's gonna come down cheap pretty often. Yeah, he takes away from Tog, but he only needs to be fueled once, has evasion and a big butt on top of previously stated stuff.

Tombstalker was considered before. This deck only needs 1 finisher if Mongoose and Goyf cannot go the distance. I chose to go with Tog for various reasons. If you want to run Tombstalker, it would replace Tog. This is not to say that doing so is a bad idea... but it does take the deck in a different direction. The deck already has the option of flying with Wonder and the deck already has a large body with Goyf which is often a 5/6. Again, this is not to say that Tombstalker is a bad idea. Mostly though, I just like the 1 kill finishes that Tog can provide outta nowhere. That, and Tog also ups my blue count for FoW.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Excellent post, Hanni. Mad props.


In the last little while, I've been testing a couple of changes to the decklist. The main change is that I've been testing Werebear in Veteran Explorer's slot. I like Werebear a lot. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if it really does what I need VE to do. Werebear is excellent for increasing pressure, which is obviously important in today's metagame. With the rising popularity of The Fear (why is it called that anyway? In any case, it's almost a mirror match in many ways) early aggression is important for this build of Tarmo/Dredge-A-Tog. On the other hand, Werebear is helping matchups that don't necessarily need all the help (help is great, but mana issues throw entire matchups). I need help here, because I'm not sure if the tradeoff is worth it or not. I'll draw up a list of pros and cons for each come morning.


I've also been testing Grave-Shell Scarab in my empty sideboard slot, partly as a response to The Fear and Vedalken Shackles (I know, I know, a feeble attempt), and partly as another recurring beatstick with (small) secondary applications. A fourth Sudden Death is unnecessary (especially since Brynn Argoll Thresh doesn't seem to have taken off), and I tried Kitchen Finks but wasn't all that impressed. Perhaps another Gigapede is in order? Aethersnipe? Or perhaps Wasteland is the better route here. I really don't know, and your input would be greatly appreciated.


I've also been doing some testing against The Fear, and will be working the matchup analysis into the new primer (which will be ready one day. Eventually. It's rather long.)


Oh, one last thing--I've been using the Loam/Coliseum/Genesis pile more often now. Makes a huge difference with more Psychatogs; you were right, Hanni. Genesis/Wonder (or Shriekmaw)/Gigapede is still my preferred pile, but it's not always necessary or even indicated.

[Vacrix]

i think that since you have the intuition/genesis engine you should consider using the following (MD or SB up to you):

Plague Spitter.
Basically, ridiculous against alot of different aggro decks. i play black aggro occasionally and let me tell you even if it gets removed it still works which is the beauty of it (with the exception of StP). i have found that it clears the majority of the board against goblins, ripps three new assholes for elves, deals with EtW quite nicely. the only reason why you wouldnt run it is if it kills too many of your own creatures. if your build is running veteran explorer than you want it to die and you can just hold your mongeese? until you hit a 7 card grave. and also you can keep recuring it with genesis against aggro once you stablize with it the first time. it mite seem a little bit slow, but with veteran explorer in the deck now, it mite speed up your game enough to make it quite relevant for aggro.

Phyrexian Negator.
unless i misread, you have a little trouble against the control(ish) matchups. if thresh/landstill/fish matchup isnt at least variable than this mite be a nice side in. usually in these match ups, if u see read then obviously dont side in, but the most you will see is StP which doesnt hurt you too much. looking at things from a different perspective, negator is bascially a tarmogoyf with 1 less toughness for 1 more mana, but its a stronger creature faster (tarmogoyf comes down a turn earlier but is a 3/4 for a couple turns before its as big, if not bigger than negator), and its very very intimidating. and you have the black to support it cause its just B, not BB so consider it.

Braids, Cabal Minion.
ya maybe sounds a little bit ridiculous, but once against, in certain match ups this could be ridiculous, especially with genesis recursion. it keeps your opponent off mana against decks with little creatures like control/combo match ups. so each player is sacing lands each turn but you run loam, which you can intuition for like, your targets for intiution would be: loam, braids, genesis. i guess. but ya, maybe deserves some testing.

Intuition is an extremely powerful resource. Here are a couple different ideas on how you could abuse it even more than you already are:

living wish/genesis/eternal witness
now it would work like this. you would have to cut out your board to fit this in alil bit. not tool box like your thinking tho, unless you want to. you would put the dark depths/aether snap combo in the board. and then just keep playing witness to return living wish. if they pick genesis it gets tricky but you can figure it out im sure. if witness, play pick up the wish, block, cycle it back to your hand and do it again. if they pick wish, search for a witness in the board to pick up the wish. the blocking with the witness should stop them for long enough for you to pull this off. it may be unnecessary with deed and beaters but idk how your aggro match up is all around, so consider it.

volrath's stronghold/life from the loam/shriekmaw -- recuring removal could be nice eh? its pretty self explanatory but ya. it mite be a little bit slow but hey with huge fat blockers to protect you quite early in the game it mite be enough to create a kind of standstill where nobody is attacking and your opponent is basically waiting for removal. and you can take advantage of that like this. well maybe that isnt the best reason because you could just search for deed but once against, just my thoughts.

hermit druid/psychatog/genesis
can set up some completely ridiculous psychatog kills. and thats about it. if you wanted you could cut out your deck to fit in some ridiculous way to abuse having the whole library in the grave by not running basics but ya thats unlikely.
reins of power/eternal witness/eternal witness

reins of power is pretty dam sick against combo. good against EtW. but once against deed is probably a better solution.

Just spent a bunch of time cleaning this up. The [Shift] key is not your enemy. - Bardo