You'll remember me for my interest and long history of playing Suicide Black decks and Pox decks. All this has paid of in a rather interesting way, leading me to end up with a deck that takes the very best elements of both decks, mixes in the green splash pioneered by Eva Green and merges all three of them together. Yes I know that sounds antisynergic, but believe me, it works and works well. The deck is simultanously devastating and threatening, more so than any deck I have ever played.
1 Urborg
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Meta Slots
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
2 Reanimate
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
The Meta Slot can be any threat or disruption that you feel is ideally suited for this deck. If threats are what you seek, I would heavily lean towards some combination of Bitterblossom and Nantuko Shade. Butyou can instead play Phyrexian Negator, or heavily tweak the manabase to support Ashenmoor Gouger, or play Shriekmaw to abuse Dark Ritual, Reanimate and play double duty as both threat and removal.
Personally, I think that meta slot should go towards disruption. And the three strongest options in my opinion are...
1.) 3 Snuff Out + 1 Reanimate
2.) 2 Snuff Out + 2 Ghastly Demise
3.) 4 Smallpox - Sometimes antisnyergic with the deck, but absolutely explosive when timed right. Your opponent will go from having a solid gameplan to being completely screwed over 3/4th of the time that you play this card.
4.) 4 Blight - Yes, I said Blight. The card while no sinkhole is still devastating with land destruction strategies.
The backbone of this deck is very clearly land destruction. This is far and away the best reason to play this deck. No other deck has ever come as closer to being as devastating to lands as Pox is. Every Sinkhole is the equivalent of a Time Walk setting your opponent back by a full turn. But on top of that, chain enough Sinkhole effects together and your opponent becomes crippled, mana screwed and utterly incapable of playing any cards at all. And what have you to accomplish this again and again and again...
4 Wasteland
4 Blight/Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
Well over a fourth of your deck is devoted to versatile undercosted land destruction.
To supplement this are the very broken discard spells Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach. Hymn can be especially usefully and randomly picking off lands your opponents were hoping to cast to recover from all the land destruction they were subjected to. Hippe serves a similar purpose.
Reanimate though it may seem odd, is utterly broken in this deck. Here are a list of ways to get your opponent's best threat into their yard...
4 Thoughtseize
4 Smallpox/Snuff Out
4 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Hypnotic Specter
Blocking
Once you do so, you can Reanimate it and use your opponent's own creature against them. Or if not that you can use that to Reanimate the Hypnotic Specter that your opponent inevitably will find a way to kill, or that you discarded or sacrificed to your own Smallpox.
If you play Smallpox, when you have a Smallpox in hand, you should first play out all your discard, allowing your opponent to play out their threat, then cast a Smallpox, followed up possibly by a Sinkhole and either a Reanimate to get your opponent's threat, or cast out your own. But when possible, Ritual into an early threat followed up with boatloads of disruption is strong as always. Never use Smallpox if you are already winning, Smallpox is to be used either early when they have a threat and you don't, when your opponent just killed your only threat leaving them with the only threat on the board (happens a lot) or when your opponent over powers you and you need to reboot the threats on the board.
For this thread, I owe a huge thanks to xsockmonkey for both rekindling my interest in Sui Black and for reminding of just strong a card Smallpox really is and to nitewolf for showing us just how at home Green is in Sui Black lists.
Last edited by Clark Kant; 07-14-2008 at 02:00 PM.
Edit: I wanted to post my updated list. I finalized what to run in the 4 Meta Slots. I owe great thanks to SuckerPunch for trying it out and promoting it to the point that I had no choice but to revisit this thread and update my list.
Current list....
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Tombstalker
3 Phyrexian Negator/Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Vindicate
3 Snuff Out
2 Reanimate/Swords to Plowshares
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
-----------------------------------------------
I'm very surprised at the lack of input the list is getting.
It was extremely finetuned and every single card in the list was hand picked to make this list as absolutely explosive and broken as Sui Black has ever gotten.
It plays the very best and most broken threats in the game.
Plus, 4 Wasteland + 4 Sinkhole + 4 Vindicate is an absolutely killer and virtually unbeatable land destruction/tempo gain suite.
Only Pox comes closer to being more devastating towards manabases.
And Reanimate is easily the most broken 1cc spell in the game in a deck like this.
If not for the sheer brokeness of Reanimate and Vindicate, the deck would admittedly be Eva Green.
As for the metagame slots, I'm very much going back and forth in these.
Ghastly Demise, Snuff Out and the third Reanimate are all extremely strong here. But Smallpox or additional land destruction works well too.
I currently am playing 3 Ghastly Demise + 1 Reanimate. But I dont' know for a fact if that is indeed the optimal configuration.
Last edited by Clark Kant; 08-27-2008 at 08:16 PM.
"It's" is a conjunction, standing in for "it is." If you meant the possessive form, there's no apostrophe: "its."Originally Posted by Clark Kant
Smack.
But Clarkieboy, the idea has been seen before. How has the deck fared, since you said it's card were so broken? Believe me, the cards you use might be legacy staples, but they are far from broken. Almost every deck can recover from a Hymn effect, or some land destruction. Of course, multiple discard, (turn 1 thoughtseize, turn 2 hymn, turn 3 hymn + thoughtseize is devastating) multiple land destruction and continous creature removal are all great, but how often does that happen? Every game? No. You either do a small effect in the early game consisting of one discard, one creature removal and one land destruction. Unless you've dedicated your deck to do one significant thing, like land destruction, you'll most likely never draw all three things in the early game, where it is crucial to do these things. I know it sounds clunky, but I think you understand.
I'm not saying your deck is bad, but no deck in this format is "utterly broken". Not even the Decks to Beat. Is Threshold broken, no, but it's clearly the best deck in the format. Win every 33+ man person you enter in six months in a row and go undefeated every single game as well as giving your opponent no chance of game, no matter which deck you play against and I will admit that your deck is towards going broken. Suicide has in my opinion never fared pretty well, and even though it tends to roll over combo, I've managed to 7-0 it with my old crappy Food Chain Combo deck. This was not your list, but it gives a picture of how variant different matches can be, and without any draw/library manipulation, you often can't get what you need.
This concludes that you need to control your draws. Sensei's Divining Top? Night's Whisper?
"You're English is terrible and inconsistent."
-DownSyndromeKarl
There is neither an "its" nor an "it's" in the quote of mine that you cited. So I have no idea what part of the post you're referring to.
Willoboy, I never said that the deck was broken, I said that it was as broken as Suicide Black has ever gotten, and the cards played are as broken as legacy cards get.
Goyf is a 2cc 4/5, Stalker is a 2cc 5/5 flyer, hymn is a 2cc 2 card random discard, and sinkhole is a 2cc timewalk with the possibility of mana screwing your opponent. Because of the other cards you play, Reanimate for a single black mana usually gets you the best creature in either your or your opponents deck.
Vindicate can be used to deal with any problem card be it a Control Magic, an opposing Goyf, a Plainswalker, a Chalice and if no such cards exists, supplements your Sinkholes and Wastelands to help mana screw or at the very least time walk your opponent. Simply put, no other removal spell has ever had that kind of versatility for a mere 3 mana. Hell even counterspells can't stop lands.
But you are absolutely right, the deck itself is not broken. Atleast not when compared to decks like Ichorid. But it is extremely good.
As for needing to include Sensei's Top or Night's Whispers. No, I assure you that it doesn't need to include either card. Like all of the very best sui variants (Red Death, Eva Green etc), it neither needs nor has the room for card draw.
@Clark Cant- I don't necessarily agree with you when you say this deck runs a few of the most broken cards as the ones you mentioned are highly conditional. Goyf is probably the most broken card in your deck, but keep in mind Goyf is not always a 4/5 or 5/6 or what have you, sometimes you will play it and it will just be a 2/3 or 3/4. Similarly, Tombstalker is not a 2cc 5/5 flyer. Tombstalker can be played for the cost you described, but only if you have 6 cards in your graveyard, which for this deck will not happen before turn 4 usually. Sinkhole is anything but a timewalk, maybe off a first turn dark ritual it is, but that is a very situational play in and of itself. Sinkhole, and hymn, for that matter, are dead draws past turn 4 or 5. You only have one creature worth reanimating in your own deck, Tarmogoyf (you can't really rely on reanimating tombstalker, and hippie is just NOT worth it imo), which means you'll also have to rely on the opponent's grave to make reanimate useful, which sounds like a bad deal to me.
I can't say I see any advantages of playing this deck over the specific white or green splash, you just decided to splash two colors for one card (in that respective color), while neglecting to include the best removal spell in the format, Swords to Plowshares.
Also, a personal pain, I see no Dark Confidant. He is one of my favorite reasons to play black, and in an aggressive deck with a low curve such as this, I see no reason not to play 4. It seems to me you are trying to play the tempo game, in which case I'm curious as to why you chose to play hippie over negator. Hippie poses no threat to the opponent unless you ritual into him turn one; other than that he is a 3 mana 2/2 flyer with a passable ability.
Just nitpicking: I wouldn't call Wasteland a tempo play, as it costs you a landdrop as well. This is of course unless you deny the opponent a specific color, or their last land, but against properly built manabases this shouldn't really happen.
Believe me, the deck was very thoughtout and well tested and every card included or excluded from the list was done for very good reasons.
Sinkhole is indeed a Time Walk. If you try the deck, you would realize just how broken the card is. It slows your opponent down by a full turn. Actually it's usually multiple Time Walks. Because combined with Vindicate and Wasteland, you can often manage to mana screw your opponent. And a mana screwed opponent unable to play anything in their hand hoping to top deck lands equals several extra turns for you.
While I agree that StP is a great removal spell. It's not very good in this particular deck. You would much rather lose 4 life to Snuff Out your opponents Goyf than have your opponent gain 5 life to get rid of it and slow your killing of them by two turns in the process. That's enough reason not to play it. But add to that that Reanimate becomes even more broken when you kill your opponents creatures rather than remove them, and the fact that StP doesn't have anywhere near the versatility of Vindicate or the ability to blow up lands to screw up their mana base, and it becomes clear why it's not played.
On the same note, Confidant is very bad in this deck. A big reason for this is obvious. Losing 8 life by revealing a Tombstalker is not a risk worth it. And Tombstalker is much more broken than Confidant in a deck like this.
But it's not just me that feels this way. Eva Green doesn't run Confidant.
Even more damning, Red Death didn't play Dark Confidant eventhough Red Death didn't play Tombstalker either and didn't have to worry about losing 8 life to Confidant as a result. Red Death didn't play Confidant because it just realized that beating face was better than drawing cards in Sui Black decks. And it was absolutley right to think so.
Also nitpicking but from my finding, Stalker is actually more broken than Goyf. It's atleast twice as resilient I've found because craploads of cards (atleast 14) played heavily in the format to stop Goyf don't even touch Tombstalker. About the only one that does is Swords.
You do indeed need library manipulation. You might deckthin yourself with the fetches, but that doesn't ensures you not do draw what you don't need. Therefore, I advocate to run Sensei's Divining Top. If you just say this deck is broken, fine, you say that but it would be even more broken with a Top, I'm sure about this. Since you are in topdeck mode, Top can actually be a time walk too, if you need to vindicate that dreadnought. Top wins you games, that's it. At the cost of 2 colorless mana, you can emergency impulse to grab your answer. Also, you can easily grab another land with Top for one turn to support its "upkeep" the following turns. Being able to dig for three every fucking turn makes it so awesome. Remember, it's better than Mirri's Guile as it can also save yourself. I'm not going to explain how awesome the card is, I hope you know. Have you tested it? If not, do it and tell me how you did with it. Plus, you can also use wasteland mana to support it.
In fact, did you reckognize how antisynergistic your mana base is with your creatures? You have as much black mana sources as you have double black mana symbols. (16) Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth might help you, but you will lose it to an opposing wasteland or a moon effect. The original Urborg will be gone too, and with such small additional effects, you'd better exchange them for basic swamps, I think. If you must run the original Urborg, run some more and run Negators in place of the Specters. They only require B, a cost that is easier to support under a moon effect, and kicks various dudes' asses with Urborg. Being a three color deck, I think that you might have a just weak mana base as a 4 color deck, despite that you only run 2 factories and 4 wastes as lands that can do something extra. Isn't that workable? I'd run this mana base instead and exchange these cards:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
-4 Hippie
+4 Negator
Meta slots > SDT
"You're English is terrible and inconsistent."
-DownSyndromeKarl
Why not take that discussion over to the Eva Green thread. This isn't deadguy. It's a very fast beatdown deck that barely has any mana to spare. Top is by no means a bad card, it just doesn't fit here.
But don't take my word for it. Suggest the card at the Eva Green thread and they will tell you the exact same thing and for the same reasons.
You mkae a very good case for the manabase actually. It's rather very rare that I have trouble getting 2 black sources. But it does happen. So you're right. I might be better off cutting 2 Mishra's Factory for 2 Swamp. I'll make that change and see how much I miss the Factories.
I felt that with 2 Factory and 4 Wasteland, I had a shot versus the standstill decks that play 4 Factory and 1 Wasteland. But maybe it's not worth it.
There is however no reason at all not to play 1 Urborg and 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.
I was referring to the thread title.
As for the list, it seems ho-hum. You might be capable of "broken" openings, but you're also capable of spectacular flops - and the longer the game goes, the more likely you are to lose (incidentally, this may be why everyone ignored your thread initially). Simply dismissing things out of hand because the deck is very carefully constructed overlooks the strategic flaw in the deck's design that makes it inherently inferior to a more consistent deck like Threshold. Having speed and consistency is not possible without using cards that are banned in this format, and the decks that tend to do the best are the ones that slow down a bit in order to smooth out their game plans. Going for reckless speed opens you up more often than not to the "Well, what if you topdeck crap after your 'broken' opening?" play.
Oh yes, there is. When the opponent realizes that he - with his own mana denial - can hurt not only your dual lands but also "basic swamps" you're becoming more vulnerable. Also, under a turn 1 moon effect, your urborgs become mountains. How good is that? Being as less vulnerable to opponent's actions while taking advantages of any vulnerabilities that his deck might has is your strength. So, either devote a strategy or dismiss those Urborgs. Right now, the first one does only give one relevant ability at the cost of being vulnerable to 12 overplayed cards in the format. Magus, the Moon and Wasteland. That sucks. The other one makes your wastelands produce black mana as well as giving Bx decks an advantage when you deny them black mana. I don't see this as an advantage, as Wasteland rarely stays in play unless you need it to destroy a Factory.There is however no reason at all not to play 1 Urborg and 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.
At Sensei's Divining Top: I don't play these two decks, and I've always hated Deadguy, even though it's a pretty strong deck. I'm not into Deadguy development, so I have no intentions of posting there instead. Yes, you might want to be aggressive all the time, but how do you fight dead topdecks? Adding those Tops will get you rid of problem. Also, against monocolored random decks which tend to stumble over decks like these - you will often meet these decks in earlier rounds - you need to negate as many advantages of wasteland as possible. It can produce your colorless mana you need to fuel your Top instead of just being a colorless producing land. Then it has some use instead of no use. You can additionally side Tops out, which make sideboarding a lot more easier. But I don't see Top as a Deadguy only card. And tell me, which deck is in reality better? AFAIK, Deadguy has been a Deck To Beat, or at least a Deck To Watch. No offense, but has yours?
"You're English is terrible and inconsistent."
-DownSyndromeKarl
Willoboy, I did take your advice and am trying out Swamp in place of the Factories. That probably hurts the landstill matchup a bit but it's not a big deal.
I have to head out to watch The Dark Knight. But tell you what. PM me and we'll play a match first thing tom and you can see for yourself just how strong the deck performs. Feel to free to bring any deck that you say Deadguy or Eva Green or any other sui variant has a good matchup against, and I'll wipe the floor versus that same deck with this and put up a better win ratio than Deadguy or Eva Green do. Sound fair?
That can be said about just about every sui variant ever printed.
Your whole post could be said verbatim about Red Death when that was popular, or about Eva Green. (Hell you could even say the same thing about Fairie Stompy or Dragon Stompy or even goblins.)
Doesn't mean that any of those decks are bad decks. Just means that you don't have much experience playing them if you think they are bad decks.
I'm wondering if the discussion on running Reanimate and the white splash in Eva Green would make more sense in this thread.
Some people have posted on the Eva Green thread that they would like the white splash lists to be in a new thread.
The list being discussed here is very similar to what the people playing white in Eva Green are playing.
If the mods can clean up the thread, perhaps, edit the thread title, it would be perfect.
Reanimate makes sense in both lists in my book...the question becomes what do you take out.
Reanimate is a house.
My thought is...
Nantuko Shade and Snuff Out can be cut to 3 ofs to make room for 2 Reanimate. Neither is a card that you like seeing multiples of.
But to cut Snuff Out down to 3, and also to better work with Reanimate, the 3 Seal need to be replace by three cards that can destroy creatures (to make up for losing the 4th Snuff Out).
Vindicate and Putrefy both work for that. Vindicate is quite clearly stronger, blowing up lands, enchantments and planeswalkers too. But Putrefy lets you stick with two colors. If you don't care about artifacts (top, jitte, chrome mox etc), 2 smother and that 4th Snuff Out is another option. But having an out against problem artifacts seems important.
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