[Experiment] Top + GoyfSligh?

[Peter_Rotten]

This is such a specific topic about Goyf Sligh that I decided to make it a separate thread.

The thing I dislike most about Goyf Sligh is that I'm too often reduced to top deck mode and have to put "Cross Your Fingers" on the stack. If I could run 8 Magma Jets, I would. So, I figured, wtf. I got time to kill. I'm gonna toss SDTop into my GoyfSligh build, goldfish it a bit, and then do some MWS testing. Here's the list.

Spells (41):
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer (1 less than usual)
3 Figure of Destiny
2 Keldon Marauder (1 less than usual)

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
3 Rift Bolt (1 less than usual)
3 Fireblast
2 Price of Progress (1 less than usual)

4 Tops
2 Krosan Grip

Lands (19):
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
8 Mountain
1 Forest

Sideboard (15):
4 Pyroclasm
2 Krosan Grip
2 Shattering Spree
4 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Price of Progress
2 Vexing Shusher


I took out semi-random cards since , when I started the experiment I wasn't sure which cards I'd replace for Top. However, I'm fairly certain now.

The first thing I noticed about Top with just a few goldfishes were the following:

1. It conflicts with a one drop. I'm not always sure if pressure or draw-fixing is better and that decision is so dependant on many things.
2. Top mana conflicts with FoD mana. I doubt I'd run both
3. Because of #1 and 2, maybe 3 Tops would be the right #.
4. I should probably increase the sac-land count.

Before we look at some Goldfish and test games, you may saying to yourself, why not just toss in some Badlands and Confidants. Personally, I refues to butcher my mana base and jeopardize two of my finishers - PoP and Fireblast.

GoldFish
Here are three hands to look at. You can make your own conclusions.

Hand 1: 3 Magma Jet (stupid MWS), Bolt, Fanatic, Top, Foothill. Do I keep it? If that top was a Grim or another 1cc Bolt, I would consider it. Top complicates the decision here. What do you lead with? I top decked a land and Top becomes much better now.

Hand 2: 2 Top, Mountain, FBlast, FoD, Grip, Bolt. I would consider shipping this. FoD and Top will compete for mana and top-decking a land does not change the fact that I have functionally dead cards in hand.

Hand 3: Mountain, 2 Sac lands, Top, Grim, Grip, Chain. Keeper IMO. I'd lead with Top since Grim isn't going to put much pressure on the table anyway. Next turn, you can spin Top and cast Grim if you don't like your top 3. On the other hand, that is one slow fucking start for GoyfSligh.

MWS Games

Game 1: vs UB Dark Confidant Tombstalker CounterTop thing.
1A: I have no top this game, so nothing specifically worth reporting but my win.
1B: My opening hand consists of 2 Tops, 2 Lands, 2 Jets and no pressure in the 1cc department. I use the Top late to find a Goyf, get Grip for Counterbalance, find a 2nd burn spell to kill Tombstalker, find a Grip for his Top, find a Sac land to shuffle away the 2 mountains the were determined to be drawn, and then draw the game winning burn. It was a pretty desperate situation. At 5 life, he just equipped Jitte to a fresh Confidant and would swing next turn. I have Fireblast in hand but need any other burn spell. He has 2 or 3 cards in hand which I assume are counters of some sort. At his EOT, I spin Top and stack the top 3 like so: Bolt, Rift, Chain. I draw my bolt, cast it, he counters. I tap my top, get that Rift and cast it and the Fblast for the win

- Top was assume in that game.

Game2: Elf Opposition
2A: no top and a loss
2B: Opening hand of Top, 3 lands, Clasm, Grip, Fanatic. I lead with Fanatic and then use Top to prevent a land glut until I can Jet away those two lands. In mid game, he says "1 sec" which must be Spanish for, "I have to do my laundry, take a shit, and wash my car." When he returns, he spends his next two turns casting ALL his AKs. Top was decent here, but I still lose to tokens and Seedborn beatings.

- Top was decent but didn't save a newly found bad match.

Game 3: vs. An opponent claiming he wants a game with No Counters (Black Stax)
3A. Trinin + black LD = a Loss. My top can only find lands for awhile until I have 3 spells on top no lands in play.
3B. Fuck that, I know I have a bad game against STAX variants. Even sub-par ones.

- Top was decent but I still lose

Game 4: Vs. SystemPlayer Lost
My opening hand was 2Top, Goyff, 2 lands, Jet, and Bolt.

Game 5: AggroLoam
5A. I mully to 5 and walk into his DD for 3. I should have won that game if I was paying more attention. I was even holding back a Grim because I knew DDing my board was going to hurt, so I don't know why I played that 3rd land.
5B. Zuran Orb + and early 7/7 Terravore doesn't do jack shit for Top-testing. Thanks, dick.

Game6: CounterSliver (Oh, fuck you already MWS)
6A: My opening hand is Top, Land, FoD, and 4Chain Lightnings! I keep and use Top to find my 2nd land during my upkeep. Even though he bounces HibSliver a bunch, I still lose to Muscles and Vial stupidity.
6B: No top and no win. I die with him at 1 life and the ground stabilized through my Goyfs. Unfortunately Wing Sliver cares little about Goyfy's ground work.

- Top was OK here.

Game 7: UBG Painter with Goyf main.
7A: I masterfully win the game from under CounterTop lock.
7B: I win the game with mucho burn to the domo. I never drew Top.

Tentative Conclusions:

1. Top CAN be good in Goyfsligh. I unsure what changes to the main deck should be made.
2. Top and Jet sometimes make me pop a boner.
3. ElfOpposition is a bad match? Luckily I can file that under, "Who Fucking Cares."
4. FoD and Top probably shouldn't both be in the deck. Sad face.

[zander1]

I play my goyf sligh list with 4 Confidants and 4 Crusher. It makes the control MU much better.

Just a thought

[FoolofaTook]

I've play-tested against GoyfSligh a lot lately and just off the top of my head I can see advantages and disadvantages to putting SDT in it.

Advantages:

A cantripped DD will occasionally win you a game you would otherwise lose. Not enough business in the top three when you draw but you get to look at and potentially grab a gamewinner from the fourth slot down, that can't be bad, especially when you are running Fireblast.

Fetches + Magma Jet + Top will help you avoid land pockets that would otherwise mangle your chances. On the flip side, it doesn't happen often, but watching GoyfSligh stuck on two land is a sad thing. Three land is mostly a win, two land is much tougher. Top will really help find that third land when you'd be gasping otherwise.

Disadvantages:

Another permanent in play, especially a non-damaging one, will make you more vulnerable to sweepers (EE@1, Deed) and erode your card advantage slightly.

The clock is going to be a little bit slower. Landing a Top on turn one really helps a deck that has a little leeway in terms of it's ultimate turn. GoyfSligh is right on the edge in terms of having that leeway or not. Top turn one instead of Figure of Destiny might well mean plowed Goyf turn two or three. It could well cost you three less damage early on without really adding that damage back in in a relevant timeframe over the next few turns. Combine Top turn one with Rift Bolts and your deck appears to be slightly slower than it would like to be at times. Maybe keep Figure of Destiny alongside the Tops and tune out the Rift Bolts?

I'll pass your idea along to the friend who is playing GoyfSligh now and see what he does with it.

[frogboy]

You only have six fetchlands. You usually need to use your fetchlands on turns one and two to actually play spells, and if you play Top before turn three your board is going to approach "miserable."

[Peter_Rotten]

You only have six fetchlands. You usually need to use your fetchlands on turns one and two to actually play spells, and if you play Top before turn three your board is going to approach "miserable."

Yes! Thank you! I now have reason to quote myself!

The first thing I noticed about Top with just a few goldfishes were the following:

1. It conflicts with a one drop. I'm not always sure if pressure or draw-fixing is better and that decision is so dependant on many things.
2. Top mana conflicts with FoD mana. I doubt I'd run both
3. Because of #1 and 2, maybe 3 Tops would be the right #.
4. I should probably increase the sac-land count.

[FoolofaTook]

You only have six fetchlands. You usually need to use your fetchlands on turns one and two to actually play spells, and if you play Top before turn three your board is going to approach "miserable."

He's got twelve red mana aside from Fetchlands in the deck and all of his one drops cast for R. Look at this sequence: turn one - non-fetch red, SDT; turn two - check SDT during upkeep, draw best of three seen, drop fetch and shuffle away the other two, FoD; turn three - check SDT during upkeep, draw best of three seen, land, Goyf. He's got potentially big critter on board (assuming FoD got wasted which is very likely), he's guaranteed his mana base and he's likely sitting on the usual nine or ten damage in hand with a cantrip possibility from SDT if Fireblast was in the top three seen on turn three.

If nothing else that kind of looks like the right amount of potential turn four damage. If Counterbalance is online at this point anything less than twelve damage done in a more normal opening sequence is irrelevant because he's still locked down fairly tight until he draws Grip, which the SDT and fetches will make happen more often.

[MTG Guru]

@Peter Rotten - Since you're running Top have you considered running Shrapnel Blast as maybe a two-of? It not only feeds Goyf but can be easily seached for via Top. Seems sexy to me.

[Peter_Rotten]

@Peter Rotten - Since you're running Top have you considered running Shrapnel Blast as maybe a two-of? It not only feeds Goyf but can be easily seached for via Top. Seems sexy to me.

I just want to focus on Top interaction in this deck without adding any newer cards yet.

My biggest worry so far is that turn top, turn two activate = no pressure on the opponent. The only way to fix that is to NOT play Top turn one.

[MTG Guru]

I know this seems odd, but has anyone considered Straw Golem in Goyf Sligh? It gives Goyf +2/+2 at worst, and at best it's a Kird Ape. I've actually suggested this card to someone back when it was Standard, in a Living Death deck, and he enjoyed have a Kird Ape on the board versus Proporb (a creature-less deck). I know it might not sound like a great idea but maybe it's worth testing.

[Peter_Rotten]

I just want to focus on Top interaction in this deck without adding any newer cards yet.

Go to the GoyfSligh thread to suggest new subpar cards for the deck.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...t=7458&page=23

[Shugyosha]

First of all you want SDT as a mid-lategame fixer. So you don't need to play it early on. You are the aggro deck, play your one drop and start the beating. The first two turns you should always have something else to do than playing SDT or your hand is bad.


Hand 1: Play Mogg. 2nd turn if you don't see land and have nothing to bolt away drop the Top. 3rd turn top if you still see no land or bolt a critter. After the second land leave the top and fix your draws with Jets.

Hand 2: More or less the same but risky as Blast and Grip are near dead. Against an unknown opponent I would mull this without hesitation.

Hand 3: 1st turn Grim, second turn fetch, chain, activate Grim. After that its up to your draws. Maybe SDT will sit on your hand for a while. As long as you can apply pressure or don't have spare mana leave it in your hand.


FoD + SDT: The same as above. If FoD connects pump him, if he is gone and you haven't got new stuff use the top. When you hit 3-4 mana you can swith your top every turn during the lategame as your curve is low.


Oh, and I would only play two SDT at most. You don't wan't them in your opening seven. If you do, you should consider playing balanced Threshold
Personally I rather use Browbeat. Card seems like crap? Test it, it will impress you (as a two off).

[Jak]

I agree with Shugyosha. You should be aggro all the way and then play top in the mid to late game. Four seems like overkill to me, since you almost never want two and you should only be playing them later in the game.

[Phantom]

Yeah, I can't see it being much better than Browbeat if you're waiting till mid-game to play it, and that's a sub par choice IMO. I think Dark Confidant is the way to go if you're stalling out. Bonus is every time you flip a burn spell, he swings for as much as a goyf. Not to mention the insane amount of panic he causes in opponents.

[Nihil Credo]

Yeah, I can't see it being much better than Browbeat if you're waiting till mid-game to play it, and that's a sub par choice IMO.

Or Countryside Crusher, if we're talking about stuff that costs three mana in place of Top. Are we?

Incidentally, I may be wrong but CC is currently an almost automatic 4-of in Extended red decks.

[Obfuscate Freely]

I built a Goyf Sligh list once that had Sylvan Library in it. I figured it compared pretty well to Dark Confidant, and is on color, and it turned out to be decent. Giving the deck a way to continuously dig for PoPs and Tarmogoyfs (the best two cards in the deck, by far) seemed to make it more competitive.

Now, the same thing clearly applies to Sensei's Divining Top, which I considered, as well. My judgment may have been clouded by a desire to get some use out of our dusty black-bordered Libraries, but I did conclude that the enchantment is better in this application.

The main advantages of Sylvan Library are that it requires no further mana investment after the initial , and in some matchups it can be freely used to fill up your hand (something that Top can't duplicate).

The biggest drawback is probably that Library is more likely to get hit by countermagic, both because countering a two-mana spell sets you back further, and because sneaking a two-mana spell under a counterwall is more difficult. You could argue that this makes Library worse than Top in some of the matchups that the cards are primarily useful in, although Library is a better card once resolved. It is also slower than Top, but this is less important since neither card holds much value in shorter games.

[Phantom]

Or Countryside Crusher, if we're talking about stuff that costs three mana in place of Top. Are we?

Incidentally, I may be wrong but CC is currently an almost automatic 4-of in Extended red decks.

I can see pros and cons between CC and DC, but either way I think I'd prefer them to top. Plus, I have sort of a man crush on Figure of Destiny.

EDIT: Agreed that Sylvan Library is better too. Being able to trade four life for an extra burn spell seems quite relevant.

[Nihil Credo]

Now that I think of it, there's the old underrated Mirri's Guile still around. Big advantage over Library of not costing two mana. Big advantage over Top of not sucking up mana. Big disadvantage over Top of not being cashable in; this one though can be alleviated by running it as a 2-of.

[moOnsteak]

I always like Top + Shrapnel Blast tech in sligh. .
Plus additional artifacts as Great Furnace of course. .

[Sims]

I always like Top + Shrapnel Blast tech in sligh. .
Plus additional artifacts as Great Furnace of course. .

Danger of Cool.

Personally I'd either go the route of Library, since it gives you extra burn spells in some matchups instead of just finding them, or CC because 3 mana fat is harder for CB to counter, and it will auto-filter your land teh rest of the game.

[kirdape3]

You probably don't have the mana to activate it effectively, and if you do you're not in a good place regardless because you've drawn lands and not spells that point at the face/their board/attack the opponent. Figure of Destiny at least affects the board immediately.

How you win games is by presenting more threats than the opponent can answer before their own gameplan has taken control of the game/won the game. Top is only useful in a very small window under normal circumstances, and there exist better options in your colors for those slots.